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ShedSinforChrist

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No. I'm an amillennialist that agrees with *some* of the partial preterist views. When is comes to the map...it's not that I agree with the teaching...just the map. I highly doubt that a 3rd temple will be built. However even if it is, as I've said it simply confirms Israel to still be in unbelief.

I don't think any map really nails it down. They are regions though, so it would be hard for any map to be 100%. I simply googled Ezeekil 39 and looked at the map images. There are several and they're pretty close.

Exactly. That my point...Revelation 20 is telling us that Gog and Magoh are representative of unbelievers. I don't hold to a physically battle, We are told in scripture "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal"...so why would I think physical? This gathering is for judgment.


However let's listen to Jesus in John 10:16:
16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

The apostles take it to the next step. Paul...in Romans 2:28, 29:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


Also read Isaiah 65!

Paul, in Romans 9 denostrates this with Hosea and Isaiah. The thing is many will not allow the NT to interpret the OT...even with Paul telling us this in Ephesians 3:3-7:
3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.
4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.


Paul is telling us he has been given the revelation of HOW to apply these prophesies of the OT..and therfore he quotes them.

Peter tells us Jews and Gentiles are being built into a SPIRITUAL HOUSE...in 1 Peter 2:4, 5.

Paul and Peter consistently take OT prophecy and tell us HOW it applies in the New Covenant.

I dont have a rebuttal to this post, I dont find anything that disagrees with my initial position. Especially since there arent any accurate maps that tell us exactly where they are located from a modern standpoint.

This one seems spot on to me, based on the descriptions we have.
Ch10_Mid-Trib_War_Ez38-39_color_web.jpg


Its a guessing game I suppose, but I believe that based on the descriptions we have, its not quite as extensive as we think.

Thanks

Hope your Christmas was amazing and the Mrs. got everything she needed
 
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shturt678s

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I think the Bible makes great use of the phrase "four corners".

Rev_7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Isa_11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Act_10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:



I have all of R.H. Charles books, do you have the Book of Jubilees by chance?

We had him in Cemetary, ie, I mean Seminary, and don't believe everything you read with Mr. Charles.

Head's up Jack, ie, sometimers
 
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ShedSinforChrist

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We had him in Cemetary, ie, I mean Seminary, and don't believe everything you read with Mr. Charles.

Head's up Jack, ie, sometimers

Not gonna disagree with you on that one.

I find the flow of his work to be suspect as usual.

Doesnt read like scripture.
 
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iamlamad

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I'm not making a claim here about the timing or nature of this passages' fulfillment.

I am merely stating the FACT that Hyper Literal Futurists are calling for, and even trying to hasten the "soon coming" wholesale slaughter of 2/3 of modern Israeli Jews.

They don't like to talk about it, or admit their theology demands that it happen, because it sheds light on the seedy, racist underbelly of Christian Zionism.

The Hyper Literal Futurist has a conundrum in that on one hand, the Jews are Gods Chosen people and need to be Blessed and supported at all costs, while on the other hand they remain a Blood Guilty race of Enemies Hostile to all people until 2/3 of them can be massacred in our near future.

Hitler would be proud.

I believe you are blaming the wrong people:

Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

So the TRUTH is, the Holy Spirit said it first.

LAMAD
 
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ebedmelech

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I dont have a rebuttal to this post, I dont find anything that disagrees with my initial position. Especially since there arent any accurate maps that tell us exactly where they are located from a modern standpoint.

This one seems spot on to me, based on the descriptions we have.
Ch10_Mid-Trib_War_Ez38-39_color_web.jpg


Its a guessing game I suppose, but I believe that based on the descriptions we have, its not quite as extensive as we think.

Thanks

Hope your Christmas was amazing and the Mrs. got everything she needed
Thank you also! Happy holydays (holidays) to you!
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I have all of R.H. Charles books, do you have the Book of Jubilees by chance?
Yes, and all of the DSS translated manuscripts.
Jubilees is interesting because it was read and believed by some, not all, Jews to be what it claims to be, but it contradicts the Gospel and the Torah.
It makes the Law the "be all end all" and it was not. Whoever wrote it had lost their understanding of what the "Schoolmaster" was given to do, which was to show the Way to bring us to Christ by the Atonement, when it was finished "once for all" and which they only rehearsed.

I believe Jubilees shows the mindset of the Jews of the age of the Diaspora, and some of it is correct in their remembrance of what they had read in their writings and lost, but much is total fabrication, and provably so.
For instance, when it purports to tell that Isaac warned Jacob not to even eat with the Gentiles because Abraham taught him not to go in to them or eat with them, it so totally lies about what Abraham did, who married Hagar -and the same word is wife that is concubine, "ishyah", in the Hebrew- and after Sarah died, he married a canaanite woman named Keturah and had six sons by her.
Also, Abraham had many alliances with the Canaanites and was a friend to many of them, like Mamre and his brothers.

Because Peter apparently believed Jubilees, but in error, Jesus had the sheet let down to teach him the lesson that; "what I have cleansed, call not thou unclean": so Peter could go with a clear conscience to the house of Cornelius.
Of course Jesus had demonstrated in His 3 1/2 years with Peter that, though He came first to
"the lost sheep of the House of Israel"; He also preached and ate with and went into the houses of Gentiles.

The second miracle of the fish and the loaves multiplied was for the Gentiles who came to hear Him, and the woman at the well was a Gentile, and the Samaritans were Gentiles whom Jesus went into their city and stayed two days, teaching them, after the woman at the well told who He was. So all that proved Jubilees point to be bogus and manipulative so as to trap the Jews in Judaising the Law to be the end, when in fact, it was to show the Way to the "End/Christ".

I still get info from reading Jubilees that they who wrote it got from other ancient sources: like the fact that "Prince Mastema" is a name meaning "the chief of the Satans", the stema being a plural form, as I have read, and the fact that in Jubilees they knew the demons were disembodied spirits of the giants who were destroyed in he flood, and that just as Enoch said they would do, they roamed earth tormenting and afflicting the descendants of Noah.

When Noah prays for his descendants to be relieved of the demonic torments and to bind the demons in Sheol, the LORD agreed, but Prince Mastema asked they not all be bound in Sheol, lest they should not be able to do their job of tempting the sons of Adam-so as to sift out the unworthy...
YHWH then agreed and had only 90% of them bound, leaving 10% to do what Enoch said they would do.

-So that is the source for the ancient truth that they had access to and which also shows the demons being let out of Sheol below, to torment man on earth in the tribulation.
 
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parousia70

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If Gods prophets say the 2/3 of the Jews are going to be killed, then I can only do my part to bring the Gospel to them right?

Yes, You illustrate your Conundrum well.

Why would you take the gospel to them if you believe it can't help them avoid their fate?

These 2/3 Zech speaks of are NOT saved, and by your own admission MUST be slaughtered as unsaved people for the prophesy to be fulfilled.

For your position to be correct, The Gospel can't help them. Their fate is set in stone.

You still cant provide proof that 2/3 of the Jews were ever killed at once,
I have not shared my position here on the timing OR NATURE of the fulfillment of Zech 13:8-9. Never was the point of my post to do so.

And why are you asking me to prove anything about a verse you admittedly have only known about for half an hour??

and you still dont know if its a future event.
Since when does me not sharing my position equivalent to me "not Knowing"?

You are a partial futurist by admission.
Yes indeed. Partial Preterist/Futurist.
Hyper neither.
 
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ShedSinforChrist

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Yes, and all of the DSS translated manuscripts.
Jubilees is interesting because it was read and believed by some, not all Jews, to be what it claims to be, but it contradicts the Gospel and the Torah.
It makes the Law the "be all end all" and it was not. Whoever wrote it had lost their understanding of what the "Schoolmaster" was given to do, which was to show the Way to bring us to Christ by the Atonement, when it was finished "once for all" and which they only rehearsed.

I believe Jubilees shows the mindset of the Jews of the age of the Diaspora, and some of it is correct in their remembrance of what they had read in their writings and lost, but much is total fabrication, and provably so.
For instance, when it purports to tell that Isaac warned Jacob not to even eat with the Gentiles because Abraham taught him not to go in to them or eat with them, it so totally lies about what Abraham did, who married Hagar -and the same word is wife that is concubine, "ishyah", in the Hebrew- and after Sarah died, he married a canaanite woman named Keturah and had six sons by her.
Also, Abraham had many alliances with the Canaanites and was a friend to many of them, like Mamre and his brothers.
Because Peter apparently believed Jubilees, but in error, Jesus had the sheep let down to teach him the lesson that "what I have cleansed, call not thou unclean": so Peter could go with a clear conscience, to the house of Cornelius.
Of course Jesus had demonstrated in His 3 1/2 years with Peter thata, though He came first to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, He also preached and ate with and went into the house of Gentiles,
The second miracle of the fish and the loaves multiplied was for the Gentiles who came to hear Him, and the woman at the well was a Gentile, and the Samaritans were Gentiles whom Jesus went into their city and stayed two days, teaching them, after the woman at the well told who He was. So all that proved Jubilees point to be bogus and manipulative so as to trap the Jews in Judaising the Law to be the end, when in fact, it was to show the Way to the "End/Christ".

I still get info from reading Jubilees that they who wrote it got from other ancient sources: like the fact that "Prince Mastema" is a name meaning "the chief of the Satans", the stema being a plural form, as I have read, and the fact that in Jubilees they knew the demons were disembldied spirits of the giants who were destroyed in he flood, and that just as Enoch said they would do, they roamed earth tormenting and afflicting the descendants of Noah.
When Noah prays for his descendants to be relieved of the demonic torments and to bind the demons in Sheol, the LORD agreed but Prince Mastema asked they not all be bound in Sheol, lest they should not be able to do their job of tempting the sons of Adam so as to sift out the unworthy...
YHWH then agreed and had only 90% of them bound, leaving ten% to do what Enoch said they would do.
So that is the source for the ancient truth that they had access to and which also shows the demons being let out of Sheol below to torment man on earth in the tribulation.

What is interesting are the parallel verses that seem to give legitimacy, but something is keeping me from accepting them in a canonized way.

Like the Apocrypha, but the Apocrypha reads like scripture and doesnt contradict the word.
 
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parousia70

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I believe you are blaming the wrong people:

Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

So the TRUTH is, the Holy Spirit said it first.

LAMAD


The Difference is the Holy Spirit didn't place the fulfillment of Zec 13:9 in OUR near future per se.... Racist Christian Zionism does that all by themselves.
 
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ShedSinforChrist

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Yes, You illustrate your Conundrum well.

Why would you take the gospel to them if you believe it can't help them avoid their fate?
Because the Bible says so. So now you want me to keep the Gospel and let God destroy them? You are an odd man.

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


These 2/3 Zech speaks of are NOT saved, and by your own admission MUST be slaughtered as unsaved people for the prophesy to be fulfilled.

For your position to be correct, The Gospel can't help them. Their fate is set in stone.
God said it, not me, do you believe God is cruel for destroying 2/3 of the Jews? Do you question Gods word often?


I have not shared my position here on the timing OR NATURE of the fulfillment of Zech 13:8-9. Never was the point of my post to do so.
How convenient for you! So you dont have anything to contribute other than accusing people of things that make no sense, got it.


Since when does me not sharing my position equivalent to me "not Knowing"?
Because you dont know, if you did, you would say so.


Yes indeed. Partial Preterist/Futurist.
Hyper neither.

Nobodies perfect.

Cheers
 
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ShedSinforChrist

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The Difference is the Holy Spirit didn't place the fulfillment of Zec 13:9 in OUR near future per se.... Racist Christian Zionism does that all by themselves.

If its not past, its future right?

The Holy Spirit gave the prophecy as a future event from the time it was given.

Do you argue what the Holy Spirit is saying?
 
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iamlamad

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Not what I said at all.

I was just responding to your claim about a certain position being racist and Hitler-esque.

I pointed out that Hyper Literal Futurism is what is actually racist and Hitler-esque.

So far you have yet to refute that.

And BTW, Unbelieving souls being cast into the LOF are from ALL ethnos, races, creeds, classes...

Nothing Racist about that at all.

This theory is simply nonsense. Just because God tells us something is going to happen does not make it "hitler-esque." You should know, there were CONSEQUENCES to crucifying the Lord and there are CONSEQUENCES for rejecting Him. This goes for all, not just the Jews.

Perhaps you missed this one:

Dan 12
Daniel 12:7

American Standard Version (ASV)

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


This is very sad, but this is God's plan. Not that God's plan is sad, what is sad is that people are SO into unbelief that God must resort to such means.


Israel still must live through the time of Jacob's trouble: the 70th week of Daniel.


LAMAD
 
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iamlamad

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If its not past, its future right?

The Holy Spirit gave the prophecy as a future event from the time it was given.

Do you argue what the Holy Spirit is saying?

So what do YOU make of "That day?" WHAT day is he referring to?

LAMAD
 
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yeshuasavedme

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What is interesting are the parallel verses that seem to give legitimacy, but something is keeping me from accepting them in a canonized way.

Like the Apocrypha, but the Apocrypha reads like scripture and doesnt contradict the word.
Well....there are a few contradictions in the Apocrypha, but that is because it is true history, and not; "Thus saith YHWH".
Enoch is "Thus saith YHWH".
Jubilees pretends to be a "thus saith YHWH" through an angel to Moses, but is actually a direct contradiction to the Message of the Torah. Jubilees does not correlate with Torah and the prophets, or with Enoch and the Book of Jasher; but none of those contradict one another.

YHWH said it would be like that, though, in Isaiah 29.
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
 
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ebedmelech

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What is interesting are the parallel verses that seem to give legitimacy, but something is keeping me from accepting them in a canonized way.

Like the Apocrypha, but the Apocrypha reads like scripture and doesnt contradict the word.
When you study this, I think the clue is God is dealing in "sevens"...something not unusual as this is what he warned Israel of if they fell away in Leviticus 26:14-33:

14 ‘But if you do not obey Me and do not carry out all these commandments,
15 if, instead, you reject My statutes, and if your soul abhors My ordinances so as not to carry out all My commandments, and so break My covenant,
16 I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that will waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you will sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies will eat it up.
17 I will set My face against you so that you will be struck down before your enemies; and those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee when no one is pursuing you.
18 If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 I will also break down your pride of power; I will also make your sky like iron and your earth like bronze.
20 Your strength will be spent uselessly, for your land will not yield its produce and the trees of the land will not yield their fruit.
21 ‘If then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins.
22 I will let loose among you the beasts of the field, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted.
23 ‘And if by these things you are not turned to Me, but act with hostility against Me,
24 then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins.
25 I will also bring upon you a sword which will execute vengeance for the covenant; and when you gather together into your cities, I will send pestilence among you, so that you shall be delivered into enemy hands.
26 When I break your staff of bread, ten women will bake your bread in one oven, and they will bring back your bread in rationed amounts, so that you will eat and not be satisfied.
27 ‘Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me,
28 then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins.
29 Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat.
30 I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you.
31 I will lay waste your cities as well and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas.
32 I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it.
33 You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste.


Basically the punishments of Leviticus 26 are what we are seeing carried out against Israel from Judges on as we read of their failures and what God does to correct them.

The judgment is coming seven times more.
 
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ShedSinforChrist

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So what do YOU make of "That day?" WHAT day is he referring to?

LAMAD

Honestly?

I wont construe a prophecy as fulfilled unless its objective, for example, I can prove that the second temple fell and not a stone remain unturned. I can prove that Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead.

I cant prove that 2/3 of the Jews were ever destroyed, so I consider it a future event unless evidence to contrary surfaces, but lets be honest, there is no evidence that is objective like what Im talking about without misusing scripture to make it appear that 2/3 of the jews were destroyed in the past.
 
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parousia70

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Honestly?

I wont construe a prophecy as fulfilled unless its objective, for example, I can prove that the second temple fell and not a stone remain unturned.

That is not a hyper futurist position.... you must be a partial preterist.

Hyper futurists point to the western wall as evidence that 70AD did NOT fulfill the "no stone left unturned" prophesy, therefore it is yet future...

I cant prove that 2/3 of the Jews were ever destroyed, so I consider it a future event unless evidence to contrary surfaces, but lets be honest, there is no evidence that is objective like what Im talking about without misusing scripture to make it appear that 2/3 of the jews were destroyed in the past.

So How many of them do you say were destroyed when the temple Fell? Half? 1/3? 3/5?
 
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ShedSinforChrist

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That is not a hyper futurist position.... you must be a partial preterist.

Hyper futurists point to the western wall as evidence that 70AD did NOT fulfill the "no stone left unturned" prophesy, therefore it is yet future...
The western wall is not part of the temple, Ive never heard a Christian defend that position, and if they did, I would laugh, then educate.


So How many of them do you say were destroyed when the temple Fell? Half? 1/3? 3/5?

I dont know, if 2/3 were ever killed, I think we would know it. So I hold to the position that its a future prophecy until proven otherwise, something you seemingly dont know yourself, but claim its not a future event.

Or not, you havent really said what your position is on the prophecy.
 
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parousia70

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The western wall is not part of the temple, Ive never heard a Christian defend that position, and if they did, I would laugh, then educate.

Stick around here... you'll find plenty who defend it that you can attempt to educate after a good belly laugh.

I dont know, if 2/3 were ever killed, I think we would know it.
Well, information like this doesn't just get downloaded into our brains... it needs to be sought out... Why would you claim it has never happened if you admit you have no idea what percentage of Jews were Killed in 70AD?

The Historical record is not complete or always trustworthy on every front, but there are historians that put the number of Slain at 1.1 Million out of a total population of 1.6 million in and around Judea at that time, (others say 600,000 total population with 400,000 killed)...and still others have completely different accounts such as a global population of approx 4 million at that time (which most historians now say is an over inflated number)

So while limited and by no means infallible, we do have accounts of 1.1 million Killed out of 1.6 million (or 400K killed out of 600K) in Judea, in and around the events leading up to and including Jerusalem's 70AD destruction...

Now I'm no math surgeon, but 1.1 (or 400) looks an awful lot like 2/3 of 1.6 (or 600) to me.... but my view doesn't not necessitate the 2/3 being a literal figure, so while interesting for their coincidental nature, the accounts aren't a necessary component to the ratification of my position.
 
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ShedSinforChrist

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Stick around here... you'll find plenty who defend it that you can attempt to educate after a good belly laugh.



Well, information like this doesn't just get downloaded into our brains... it needs to be sought out... Why would you claim it has never happened if you admit you have no idea what percentage of Jews were Killed in 70AD?

The Historical record is not complete or always trustworthy on every front, but there are historians that put the number of Slain at 1.1 Million out of a total population of 1.6 million in and around Judea at that time, (others say 600,000 total population with 400,000 killed)...and still others have completely different accounts such as a global population of approx 4 million at that time (which most historians now say is an over inflated number)

So wile limited, we have accounts of 1.1 million Killed out of 1.6 million (or 400K killed out of 600K) in Judea, in and around the events leading up to and including Jerusalem's 70AD destruction...

Now I'm no math surgeon, but 1.1 (or 400) looks an awful lot like 2/3 of 1.6 (or 600) to me.

You see, the thing about prophecy is that there is NEVER confusion as to whether its happened or not.
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation
This means that any and every person who wants the information to validate a prophecy is given it by God, ask and ye shall receive.

God doesnt leave us in the dark mate, if you can show me objective information proving your case, I have no way to deny it right?

Otherwise your subjective opinion isnt enough for me to jeopardize my salvation on.

Where is your proof for your numbers? If it exists, then I can see it right?
 
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