3abn Continued (2)

[Rosie55]

Lies..............absolutely vile opinion. if you are trusting Jim L's. advice then I seriously question your agenda here.

Is there some reason not to trust Jim L's advice TM?

 

[truthmagnet]

I agree with you. I would have been asking questions a long time ago and since Fran likes hypotheticals.....What if the "victim" in question was a grown man that drove himself (no need for dropping off) to the alleged different meeting places, of his own free will and his own accord? No matter what was going on mentally in his head the actions are why that I agree with Peach. He doesn't have a case.

Let's forget about a legal case for a minute. Where is your moral compass?

 

[tomatoe]

I have kids and before any of this was brought to my notice I always stayed with my kids when they were at sports training.

Their training was always out in the open where ther risk is reduced.

Pools, gymnasiums etc are places where things go wrong.

Exactly. First of all nothing whatsoever has been proven about any under age boys so these statements about kids time are ridiculous all the way around. The environment is everything as you said Cliff. If allegations were true about little kids (which they are not) there is absolutely NO opportunity's for any kind of privacy on the kids time set. NONE. My friend has a daughter that was on kids time on several different occasions. She told me the circumstances there and also said if TS was asked to play a few songs, he came in the front door down the hall directly to the set, played the songs and went out the same way immediately. She said the kids are constantly supervised while on the set or off. So as usual, trying to blame DS for "putting kids in danger, is completely foolish. Not to mention, again, that nothing has been proven in any kind of way that any children were involved in any of the allegations.

 

[truthmagnet]

Is there some reason not to trust Jim L's advice TM?

The list is too long for me to rehash here rosie55, but if you go back to the beginning of the older thread and scan through his posts and the magnitude of posts rebuffing him, you will get a good picture of his lacking in compassion and understanding of the victims of sexual abuse. you will also see his high esteem of himself as an authority on these issues and his pious platitudes criticizing those who disagree with him.

 

[tomatoe]

Very wise suggestion, reort the abuse to the authorities and see what they say.

So far we have not heard if it has even been reported.

What was their reaction if it has been reported.

From what this internet says, it was taken to the authorities back in the 80's and they found nothing to substantiate it.

 

[truthmagnet]

I agree with you that people may be overreacting to the kids on Kid's Time situation where the children "most likely" were not at risk but even "most likely" is not enough. With no one there knowing of the TS allegations, who would have even thought to be "on guard". you have to remember that child sexual abuse and child molestation covers a large range of possibilities as simple as sitting on someone's lap or even as subtle as a look. Doesn't that make your skin crawl just a little?

Exactly. First of all nothing whatsoever has been proven about any under age boys so these statements about kids time are ridiculous all the way around. The environment is everything as you said Cliff. If allegations were true about little kids (which they are not) there is absolutely NO opportunity's for any kind of privacy on the kids time set. NONE. My friend has a daughter that was on kids time on several different occasions. She told me the circumstances there and also said if TS was asked to play a few songs, he came in the front door down the hall directly to the set, played the songs and went out the same way immediately. She said the kids are constantly supervised while on the set or off. So as usual, trying to blame DS for "putting kids in danger, is completely foolish. Not to mention, again, that nothing has been proven in any kind of way that any children were involved in any of the allegations.

 

[PeacefulSDA]

Peach,
I know you are not a malicious person, that you have a heart for the truth as you know it and that you fervently believe that what you are doing is right. As human beings we tend to sort through information drawing on our cumulative life experiences and come to personal opinions and conclusions within that framework.

As I have been involved in reading the pages of postings, documentation and opinions in this discussion since last year, I have come to my own conclusions as well. I have done this with much prayer, and have not formed my opinions lightly.

It is of interest, but not surprising, that two seekers of the truth should end up coming down on opposing sides of the issues.

I don't mean to be rude, but many here have had these "experiences" ( myself included) but we don't keep bringing them up, Why? Our personal experience isn't the topic here, P, and we are not blinded by them.

May I respectfully suggest that perhaps, while not being blinded "by" them you might be blind "to" them? This would explain to me why you seem so antagonized by me and others interpreting or attempting to understand the feelings, motives and actions of fellow victims of abuse through our own experiences.

I personally think it is onesided and rude to publish someone's personal e-mail and not the other side.

The fact is Duane answered this e-mail and has not furnished it, and I have grown irritated enough here to say that is because it paints things a bit differently.

And those on the higher road are not into violating privacy rights and betraying secrets...

The best we can do is ask Duane as he's the one who handed over Tommy's alleged email to him to publish, what he said in reply and how he answered and hope he has a conscience enough to answer, He has so far refused to do so.

Why don't you try P?

I understand if you might not want to.

I believe you should carefully review the spirit that comes across in this section of your post.

Once again you are condemning the victim for his act of coming forward, of breaking the silence that has protected his abuser. Yes, he betrayed the secret by allowing the email to be published, but most would feel that he is not only taking the high road, but is also paving the way for others to do so by breaking the silence.

Sometimes it's easier to attack or find fault with another then to try and see things from a different point of view, or to consider both sides in a unbiased manner...

I completely agree with you here, Peach45, this is so true. Please take it to heart.

 

[tomatoe]

Let's forget about a legal case for a minute. Where is your moral compass?

My moral and christian ethics are this: Where Duane is concerned, if alleged events happened, then it was wrong. Very wrong. Does that open the door for all of this pedophile junk and these accusations that kids were in danger at 3abn and all the rest that has been spouted so freely on the internet? NO it does not. In these United States and also as christians, people are innocent until PROVEN guilty. If and when that happenes, then there might be a little more validity in discussing it. Until then, with nothing proven whatsoever about anyone other than Duane, this whole thing has taken on a mob mentality with accusations, horror stories and judgements being thrown around right and left. Yes this is a sensative issue...Yes we should have compassion for the helpless that have been abused the world over, but to lay your feelings and your experiences at the feet of one man, that has never been condemned or charged in a court of law, shows your moral compass.

 

[Rosie55]

The list is too long for me to rehash here rosie55, but if you go back to the beginning of the older thread and scan through his posts and the magnitude of posts rebuffing him, you will get a good picture of his lacking in compassion and understanding of the victims of sexual abuse. you will also see his high esteem of himself as an authority on these issues and his pious platitudes criticizing those who disagree with him.

If you are speaking of the first half of this thread, I felt Jim's posts were reasonable and factual. I didn't see any "platitudes" going on at all. I've been reading them all along and I really appreciate his expertise in understanding this topic.

 

[PeacefulSDA]

I agree with you. I would have been asking questions a long time ago and since Fran likes hypotheticals.....What if the "victim" in question was a grown man that drove himself (no need for dropping off) to the alleged different meeting places, of his own free will and his own accord? No matter what was going on mentally in his head the actions are why that I agree with Peach. He doesn't have a case.

tomatoe,
I would urge you to ask Samantha and Steve Nelson if they consider Samantha a willing partner or a victim of pastoral sexual abuse. She was an adult, was married and may have even driven herself to some of her "counseling" sessions before she realized that she was being victimized. I watched and listened as Danny Shelton interviewed both of them on 3abn Today last year and it is uncanny the similarities I noticed between the situations of both Samantha and Duane. The big difference was that Samantha had her loving husband to support her and grow through the experience as they realized together that she had been a victim of abuse.

Duane has had no such support until recently.

 

[tomatoe]

Peach,
I know you are not a malicious person, that you have a heart for the truth as you know it and that you fervently believe that what you are doing is right. As human beings we tend to sort through information drawing on our cumulative life experiences and come to personal opinions and conclusions within that framework.

As I have been involved in reading the pages of postings, documentation and opinions in this discussion since last year, I have come to my own conclusions as well. I have done this with much prayer, and have not formed my opinions lightly.

It is of interest, but not surprising, that two seekers of the truth should end up coming down on opposing sides of the issues.


May I respectfully suggest that perhaps, while not being blinded "by" them you might be blind "to" them? This would explain to me why you seem so antagonized by me and others interpreting or attempting to understand the feelings, motives and actions of fellow victims of abuse through our own experiences.



I believe you should carefully review the spirit that comes across in this section of your post.

Once again you are condemning the victim for his act of coming forward, of breaking the silence that has protected his abuser. Yes, he betrayed the secret by allowing the email to be published, but most would feel that he is not only taking the high road, but is also paving the way for others to do so by breaking the silence.



I completely agree with you here, Peach45, this is so true. Please take it to heart.

I believe I can see where Peach is coming from concerning you. You are adept at ignoring the main point of the post while your sympathetic side takes over. The point was that Duane answered that email from TS. His answer puts a whole different light on how the picture looks. Again, the point...If he is going to make public the email from TS then he should also make public his reply to TS. He has been asked several times about this and not only has never posted it but will not answer the question of what he said in it. That isn't hard to understand.

 

[PeacefulSDA]

I believe I can see where Peach is coming from concerning you. You are adept at ignoring the main point of the post while your sympathetic side takes over. The point was that Duane answered that email from TS. His answer puts a whole different light on how the picture looks. Again, the point...If he is going to make public the email from TS then he should also make public his reply to TS. He has been asked several times about this and not only has never posted it but will not answer the question of what he said in it. That isn't hard to understand.

tomatoe,
I thought I had addressed that point as well but see that I left it out. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

I have seen Duane answer the query about his response to Tommy's emailed confession. My recollecton is that he said he had deleted it.

Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, his 2005 response to Tommy's email would likely have been framed from the point of view of a person who had not yet realized he had been victimized. I am fairly certain he probably feels differently today than he did in the summer of 2005. BTIJMO

 

[steffanphilip]

The list is too long for me to rehash here rosie55, but if you go back to the beginning of the older thread and scan through his posts and the magnitude of posts rebuffing him, you will get a good picture of his lacking in compassion and understanding of the victims of sexual abuse. you will also see his high esteem of himself as an authority on these issues and his pious platitudes criticizing those who disagree with him.

What magnitude of posts rebuffing him? The same tactics all over again, state something false and then assume that it has to be truthful.

Lacking in compassion? Jim has tried his best to be understanding but you you want to continue to use the same old tired tactics? Honestly, his posts have tried to maintain the spirit of Christianity and that's what your posts lack.

Let's be clear, truthmagnet, you have never looked for the truth - what you have wanted are allegations that you can somehow spin.

 

[steffanphilip]

Let's forget about a legal case for a minute. Where is your moral compass?

where's yours?

 

[tomatoe]

tomatoe,
I thought I had addressed that point as well but see that I left it out. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

I have seen Duane answer the query about his response to Tommy's emailed confession. My recollecton is that he said he had deleted it.

Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, his 2005 response to Tommy's email would likely have been framed from the point of view of a person who had not yet realized he had been victimized. I am fairly certain he probably feels differently today than he did in the summer of 2005. BTIJMO

Ok he said he deleted it. Then just give us a condensed version of what he said. It's not been that long ago so shouldn't be hard to remember.

And you are saying that he didn't realize he was a victim 19 years or so after the alleged incidents and even up to the time he contacted Pickle in Tommy's defense. But at some point after he talked to Pickle, he realized, all of a sudden, that he had been a victim.

Ok there is no sense in continuing this back and forth. It proves nothing so let's just agree to disagree on the circumstances.

 

[truthmagnet]

Tomatoe states:
My moral and christian ethics are this: Where Duane is concerned, if alleged events happened, then it was wrong. Very wrong. .......but to lay your feelings and your experiences at the feet of one man, that has never been condemned or charged in a court of law, shows your moral compass.
i have done no such thing. my moral compass is to protect, defend and support victims. my feelings and experiences have nothing to do with TS. they are expressed to help you, who are so blind, to see the deep scars that are left by such cowardly, perverted acts and to help you see how incredibly hard it is to open that wound back up for all the world to see in the hopes of getting some justice and healing.
my moral compass is to show my disdain for homosexuality and pedifiles. whether someone is of age or not, it is an abomination unto God and our world is losing the race on preventing and annihilating that abomination.
the evidence in this case is overwhelming and has been revealed over a period of decades. there is no telling how many times this has happened and gone unreported, but be that as it may, there is no reason to attack someone who has been a victim simply because they have spoken out in this venue. maybe he needs our support. did you ever think of that? have you ever thought of the victims feelings?
just because he spoke out and continues to be attacked for it he has to continue to speak up and defend himself. he is not wrong for doing that. you and those of like mind are wrong to continue to invalidate him simply because this has not gone to court yet. maybe there is no case. maybe this is the "victim's court" where they can be heard.
fact of the matter is, he doesn't speak up that often so you need to get off his case and quit mentioning his name all over the place.
God gave us a brain to discern things with. If two churches found TS guilty enough to remove him as pastor, that is a "court" we should listen to. they obviously believed the accusations more than they believed TS. we should not assume that both of those churches didn't know what they were doing.

this silly exaggeration of: "this whole thing has taken on a mob mentality with accusations, horror stories and judgements being thrown around ...blah blah blah" - is over exaggerating a bit wouldn't you say? the few people who post on this thread can hardly be called a mob. we who defend the victims have no more of a "mob mentality" than you and those few who agree with you. we are just angry that this happened to these young men and nothing has been done about it. i wouldn't call that "mob mentality". i'd call that "morality".

So, where is your moral compass?
maybe we should take a poll.
who's for homosexuality and sexual abuse say "aye".
those opposed say "ney"

 

[truthmagnet]

I believe I can see where Peach is coming from concerning you. You are adept at ignoring the main point of the post while your sympathetic side takes over. The point was that Duane answered that email from TS. His answer puts a whole different light on how the picture looks. Again, the point...If he is going to make public the email from TS then he should also make public his reply to TS. He has been asked several times about this and not only has never posted it but will not answer the question of what he said in it. That isn't hard to understand.

Apparently it is hard for you to understand. that has been addressed and explained over and over again. why do you keep bringing it up? (no reply needed)

 

[PeacefulSDA]

Ok he said he deleted it. Then just give us a condensed version of what he said. It's not been that long ago so shouldn't be hard to remember.

I am not privy to what he said in his deleted response. If Duane chooses to report it that is his business.

And you are saying that he didn't realize he was a victim 19 years or so after the alleged incidents and even up to the time he contacted Pickle in Tommy's defense. But at some point after he talked to Pickle, he realized, all of a sudden, that he had been a victim.

I don't know if he has been in total denial, semi-denial or afraid to admit the truth to himself about the abuse over the years since the abuse ended. Duane will come to know his own personal answer to that as he goes through this healing process.

Ok there is no sense in continuing this back and forth. It proves nothing so let's just agree to disagree on the circumstances.

You are most likely correct. We will continue to disagree and I will continue to post my opinion on the matter any time you or others attack the credibility of the victims.

 

[Rosie55]

I am not privy to what he said in his deleted response. If Duane chooses to report it that is his business.


I don't know if he has been in total denial, semi-denial or afraid to admit the truth to himself about the abuse over the years since the abuse ended. Duane will come to know his own personal answer to that as he goes through this healing process.



You are most likely correct. We will continue to disagree and I will continue to post my opinion on the matter any time you or others attack the credibility of the victims.

Peaceful--this is true--you don't know.

Again truthmagnet--all of what you have said is hearsay and gossip because no one has been charged in a court of law. Again--let Duane and company form a lawsuit (I understand this is being done) and then come on here and talk about it. But until it is PROVEN in a court of law, Tommy is innocent of any child abuse.

I'm glad law enforcement have been trained to tell when people are lying when it comes to this type of abuse. I imagine it clears up a lot of problems.

 

[truthmagnet]

ALL of what I have said is hearsay and gossip ??? prove that !! if you can Give me even ONE example i will gladly apologise. I answered your post question respectfully. I'd appreciate the same consideration. We will see how long I have to wait to get an example of your unwarranted accusation.

Peaceful--this is true--you don't know.

Again truthmagnet--all of what you have said is hearsay and gossip because no one has been charged in a court of law. Again--let Duane and company form a lawsuit (I understand this is being done) and then come on here and talk about it. But until it is PROVEN in a court of law, Tommy is innocent of any child abuse.

I'm glad law enforcement have been trained to tell when people are lying when it comes to this type of abuse. I imagine it clears up a lot of problems.