3 key questions concerning eschatology

[Timtofly]

An incorruptible body is not a physical body. Although it can be seen and touched, it is not physical, see 1 Cor 15:42-44.

It is not stated anywhere in scripture that the "soul at death will put on a physical body". To make sense of the doctrine, you need first to understand the difference between incorruptible and physical bodies. When you do that, your position will align with what the scripture says.

Your theology on the state of the resurrection is nebulous and neither here nor there. I have given you a hint - first of all, try to understand the difference between an incorruptible and a physical body.

Nope. Incorruptible and corruptible are describing the types of physical bodies. They both are physical. Incorruptible is an adjective just like physical, but the difference is not between Incorruptible and physical. The difference is between corruptible and incorruptible.

The point Paul made about a spiritual body is within the framework of an allegory. There is nothing literal in Paul's allegory. The body is not a literal seed planted in the ground. Neither does a spiritual body spring up from the ground.

 

[RevealedTruths]

The resurrected body is still physical, made out of physical matter. And yes, it still has flesh, bones, skin, blood, all organs etc. The adjective "spiritual" in the context of the spiritual body is in contrast to "psychical" or "soulical", in other words, a body animated by the soul VS animated by the Holy Spirit. Not a material VS immaterial one. Any notion that the resurrected body is "spiritual" as in ethereal / sexless / immaterial = gnosticism.

 

[Timtofly]

Are you saying that when we put on an incorruptible body, we don't have 'immortality'?

Putting on immortality is putting on the spirit.

No such thing as an immortal body. Paul never calls the body immortal. Being mortal is one thing. Being immortal is not Paul's point. This mortal cannot put on immortality. The incorruptible physical body puts on immortality.

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

Paul already explained the incorruptible as pertaining to the physical. Paul is not calling the body mortal. Paul is saying death puts on non death. That is spiritual. Do you not see Adam's flesh as being in a state of death outside of God? The Holy Spirit is our interest until we put on the spirit. We are dead in Adam and alive in Christ. When the church is glorified, being alive in Christ is pointless. Before Adam disobeyed, he did not need to be in Christ. He was already in the living image of God. In a state of death without our spirit, we are naked and dead. Putting on immortality is not long life. Putting on immortality is putting on our spirit over our incorruptible physical body.

 

[Timtofly]

Even the spirit of the wicked returns to God. But since the wicked return without being indwelt with the Holy Spirit of life their spirit returns to God without life. And notice Ecclesiastes says the spirit returns to God when that which is dust (body) returns to the earth (dies).

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit of the wicked is no different than that of the beasts according to Solomon. Speaking of the sons of men (unbelievers, not sons of God), Solomon says the same befalls them as that which befalls the beasts of the earth in death. Because in death the spirit of the wicked goes downward to the earth, while the spirit of the righteous (sons of God) goes upward in death.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-22 (KJV) I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

Without the life-giving Spirit in them when man dies their breath of life (spirit) ceases, but for the one born of the Spirit the breath of life (spirit) given them from God returns alive to God in heaven where we will be until the last day of this age when the seventh angel begins to sound that time shall be no more.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Breath - blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

Of life - :— age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, merry, multitude, (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

Soul - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.

A man can be a living (spirit) soul without a physical body, but the body without a living (spirit) soul is altogether without life. To be a spiritual body is to be a living soul. Which is what we find in heaven of those who have died in faith since the resurrection and ascension of Christ.

You are conflating spirit with breath. The spirit is put on over the physical body. The soul did not go upward at death prior to the Cross. The soul went to Abraham's bosom. Jesus had to descend into sheol to bring the OT redeemed out at the Cross. Their souls were given a first resurrection body. That body is permanent and incorruptible. It is without sin, and the state of death in contrast to Adam's dead corruptible physical body. The OT last day resurrection was the day Jesus died on a Cross.

No one has been reunited with their spirit since Adam disobeyed God, and physically and spiritually died. So the soul is not one's spirit nor breath. The soul is the eternal you without your body or spirit. And your spirit is not your breath. Nor is it God's breath. The spirit is the image of God, a light. God is light. Your spirit shines as bright as the stars.

 

[rwb]

You are conflating spirit with breath. The spirit is put on over the physical body. The soul did not go upward at death prior to the Cross. The soul went to Abraham's bosom. Jesus had to descend into sheol to bring the OT redeemed out at the Cross. Their souls were given a first resurrection body. That body is permanent and incorruptible. It is without sin, and the state of death in contrast to Adam's dead corruptible physical body. The OT last day resurrection was the day Jesus died on a Cross.

No one has been reunited with their spirit since Adam disobeyed God, and physically and spiritually died. So the soul is not one's spirit nor breath. The soul is the eternal you without your body or spirit. And your spirit is not your breath. Nor is it God's breath. The spirit is the image of God, a light. God is light. Your spirit shines as bright as the stars.

Breath -
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
5397. נְשָׁמָה neshamah (nᵉshâmâh)
Search for H5397 in KJVSL; in KJV.
נְשָׁמָה nᵉshâmâh, nesh-aw-maw'

from H5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:—blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

feminine noun

Spirit -
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
7307. רוּחַ ruwach (rûwach)
Search for H7307 in KJVSL; in KJV.
רוּחַ rûwach, roo'-akh

from H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):—air, anger, blast, breath, × cool, courage, mind, × quarter, × side, spirit(-ual), tempest, × vain, (whirl-) wind(-y).

feminine noun

7306. רוּחַ ruwach (rûwach)
Search for H7306 in KJVSL; in KJV.
רוּחַ rûwach, roo'-akh

a primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy):—accept, smell, × touch, make of quick understanding.

verb

Man's spirit, which comes from God equates to our internal man. Our spirit is who we are, that which gives us intellect, our mind, understanding. The spirit in man can have life after our outward or physical body dies. Our spirit and soul are not the same, though they are similar. Mankind must have the breath of life, which comes from our spirit in us for physical life. But the spirit in man can continue to have life after physical death IF he/she is indwelt by the life-giving Spirit of Christ. Without the life-giving Spirit when our body breathes it's last, there is no spiritual life in man. He/she simply dies and returns to the dust from which he/she was created.

Soul -
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
5315. נֶפֶשׁ nephesh (nephesh)
Search for H5315 in KJVSL; in KJV.
נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, neh'-fesh

from H5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.

feminine noun
5314. נָפַשׁ naphash (nâphash)
Search for H5314 in KJVSL; in KJV.
נָפַשׁ nâphash, naw-fash'

a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):—(be) refresh selves (-ed).

verb

The human body indwelt with a spirit from God becomes a complete living soul. Being a living soul means to be a living breathing creature. Every living, breathing thing upon the earth is a living soul, whether animal or human.

Our spirit is NOT put on over the human body! The spirit dwells inside our body. When the living soul dies, it means that which is physical no longer has the breath of life, because the breath of life comes from our spirit in us. The spirit departs our body after death and returns to God who gave it. (Ecc. 12:7) The spirit in man is then said to go down, like that of the beasts of the field, or the spirit in man will go up. (Ecc 3:21) The one who goes down is the spirit that dies in unbelief, and the spirit that goes up to heaven is the spirit that has been given eternal life through Christ's Holy Spirit in us, and His Spirit can NEVER die.

When the spirit in us ascends up to heaven after physical death it is called a spiritual body (1Cor 15:44, 46). Those who are spiritually alive in heaven will not be complete again until the last day when their physical body is changed and re-united with the living spirit and they once again become complete living soul. Until that day, while in heaven they remain living (spirit) soul (possessing life), without a physical body because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom in heaven. (1Cor 15:50)

 

[DavidPT]

Daniel is seeing what will be at the GWTJ. The prophets speak as though things that shall come are past events.

You lost me. In what way, pertaining to Daniel 7:9-11, the fact those events haven't even been fulfilled yet, is that an example of what you said here---The prophets speak as though things that shall come are past events?

 

[rwb]

You lost me. In what way, pertaining to Daniel 7:9-11, the fact those events haven't even been fulfilled yet, is that an example of what you said here---The prophets speak as though things that shall come are past events?

Daniel's vision is what shall come to pass at the end of this age when Christ comes again. We find this in Rev 19 & 20. Look for example to the prophet Joel. His prophesy indicates Pentecost as being the Day of the Lord, when the Spirit is liberally poured out, but Joel also says the Lord will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke, and the sun shall be turned to darkness, the moon into blood BEFORE the great and terrible Day of the Lord comes.

We know through the book of Acts that Pentecost is fulfillment of the outpouring of the Spirit, but there were no wonders in the heavens and earth, the sun has not turned into darkness and the moon into blood. Why? Because the prophesy, which is all future to Joel's time did come, but speaks as if The Day of the Lord that we know came at Pentecost has fully come to pass at Pentecost. But we know through Christ that the sun turning to darkness and the moon into blood is prophesy of Christ coming the second time, also called The Day of the Lord.

Joel 2:28 (KJV) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Joel 2:30-31 (KJV) And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Daniel sees in his vision the Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven to the Ancient of Days. Daniel's prophesy speaks of a future event, yet he writes as though he sees these events in his past.

Daniel 7:13 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

The prophet writes of future events as though they are already past, because they are dreams and visions that are not literally taking place in Daniel's time, but events that will come in the future.

One more point to make. The beast, false prophet and Satan are never called to stand before God at the GWTJ. All three are taken while in battle and cast into the lake of fire. So no, we won't find these or the little horn standing before the GWTJ.

Revelation 19:20 (KJV) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 (KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[keras]

You lost me. In what way, pertaining to Daniel 7:9-11, the fact those events haven't even been fulfilled yet, is that an example of what you said here---The prophets speak as though things that shall come are past events?

Plainly, obviously; most of the Prophesies remain unfulfilled.
They are Written in the past tense because of the absolute surety of their eventual fulfilment.
And as rwb says; They are dreams and visions, which the Prophets are shown as happening, but are not yet a reality.

 

[DavidPT]

They are dreams and visions, which the Prophets are shown as happening, but are not yet a reality.

I obviously already get that. But that is not exactly what rwb said. He said past events not events happening when these prophets are seeing these visions.

 

[Timtofly]

Breath -
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
5397. נְשָׁמָה neshamah (nᵉshâmâh)
Search for H5397 in KJVSL; in KJV.
נְשָׁמָה nᵉshâmâh, nesh-aw-maw'

from H5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:—blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

feminine noun

Spirit -
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
7307. רוּחַ ruwach (rûwach)
Search for H7307 in KJVSL; in KJV.
רוּחַ rûwach, roo'-akh

from H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):—air, anger, blast, breath, × cool, courage, mind, × quarter, × side, spirit(-ual), tempest, × vain, (whirl-) wind(-y).

feminine noun

7306. רוּחַ ruwach (rûwach)
Search for H7306 in KJVSL; in KJV.
רוּחַ rûwach, roo'-akh

a primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy):—accept, smell, × touch, make of quick understanding.

verb

Man's spirit, which comes from God equates to our internal man. Our spirit is who we are, that which gives us intellect, our mind, understanding. The spirit in man can have life after our outward or physical body dies. Our spirit and soul are not the same, though they are similar. Mankind must have the breath of life, which comes from our spirit in us for physical life. But the spirit in man can continue to have life after physical death IF he/she is indwelt by the life-giving Spirit of Christ. Without the life-giving Spirit when our body breathes it's last, there is no spiritual life in man. He/she simply dies and returns to the dust from which he/she was created.

Soul -
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
5315. נֶפֶשׁ nephesh (nephesh)
Search for H5315 in KJVSL; in KJV.
נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, neh'-fesh

from H5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.

feminine noun
5314. נָפַשׁ naphash (nâphash)
Search for H5314 in KJVSL; in KJV.
נָפַשׁ nâphash, naw-fash'

a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):—(be) refresh selves (-ed).

verb

The human body indwelt with a spirit from God becomes a complete living soul. Being a living soul means to be a living breathing creature. Every living, breathing thing upon the earth is a living soul, whether animal or human.

Our spirit is NOT put on over the human body! The spirit dwells inside our body. When the living soul dies, it means that which is physical no longer has the breath of life, because the breath of life comes from our spirit in us. The spirit departs our body after death and returns to God who gave it. (Ecc. 12:7) The spirit in man is then said to go down, like that of the beasts of the field, or the spirit in man will go up. (Ecc 3:21) The one who goes down is the spirit that dies in unbelief, and the spirit that goes up to heaven is the spirit that has been given eternal life through Christ's Holy Spirit in us, and His Spirit can NEVER die.

When the spirit in us ascends up to heaven after physical death it is called a spiritual body (1Cor 15:44, 46). Those who are spiritually alive in heaven will not be complete again until the last day when their physical body is changed and re-united with the living spirit and they once again become complete living soul. Until that day, while in heaven they remain living (spirit) soul (possessing life), without a physical body because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom in heaven. (1Cor 15:50)

I am pretty sure Paul point outs that the soul puts on two other attributes. One is the physical body, the other the spirit. Our spirit is not inside of us. Our spirit is currently in the presence of God. Unless one's spirit is a demon, and seeking out humans or animals to possess.

Why would a human be possessed by their own demonized spirit? And it would need to be removed? Do you not accept those accounts in Scripture about demon possession?

The only spirit we have inside is the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit is on loan until death or the rapture when the whole church will be glorified.

The word spirit is sometimes used as the soul, but they are two separate things. We are and always will be a soul, but the soul puts on a physical body, and over that our spirit.

If you have another spirit in you besides the Holy Spirit, you really need to get rid of it. A spirit inside you, is there to control you, not letting your soul have any ability to make decisions.

There are several accounts in the OT about spirits being sent from God, both for good and some to bring about God's will as punishment. Demons are not sent by God. Demons come to those who get involved in the occult, or by Satan to deceive us. But demons are still a person's spirit, after such human becomes reprobate in their soul. Those who are reprobate, not only mess up their own lives but the source of those evil spirits and demons.

 

[rwb]

I am pretty sure Paul point outs that the soul puts on two other attributes. One is the physical body, the other the spirit. Our spirit is not inside of us. Our spirit is currently in the presence of God. Unless one's spirit is a demon, and seeking out humans or animals to possess.

For our spirit to be present with the Lord while physically alive means we have gone from being dead in our natural spirit to alive through His Spirit in our spirit because we have been born again. It means we have had part in the first resurrection that is the resurrection of Christ. And through Him we now walk NOT by our natural spirit (natural mind) but by our new spirit that is spiritually alive by His Spirit. It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing.

The only spirit we have inside is the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit is on loan until death or the rapture when the whole church will be glorified.

Without a spirit mankind has no life, because having a spirit is to possess a mind and the ability to breathe. All mankind has a natural spirit, but not all of mankind has the Holy Spirit. Because the world (unbelievers) cannot receive Him.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The word spirit is sometimes used as the soul, but they are two separate things. We are and always will be a soul, but the soul puts on a physical body, and over that our spirit.

Yes, because our spirit can continue to be a spirit soul after death IF we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who makes us spiritually alive through Christ's death and resurrection. When God created man He molded our body from the earth, and breathed life (spirit)
into us and man became a complete living soul. That is again the believer's destiny to be complete again. Now we have eternal life through our spirit because we have the Holy Spirit in us keeping us spiritually alive even after our body died because our body is still under the curse of death and will die. Believers long for the day when our body after becoming immortal and incorruptible is re-united with our living eternal spirit so we can once again become as God created man to be.

 

[Postvieww]

This is a figure of speech otherwise how do you reconcile the fact that Job also concedes that his skin and body will be destroyed?

No figure of speech. Job was just expressing his belief that one day his body would be resurrected from the grave. Then in that new body he would see God, Nothing figurative about that.

 

[Postvieww]

Our spirit is not inside of us. Our spirit is currently in the presence of God.

FALSE!

Acts 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Stephen's spirit was not in the presence of God until his death.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

The spirit of man is within the man until death.

1 Corinthians 7:34
There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

Body, soul, and spirit are one until death

1 Corinthians 14:14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful

Our spirit can pray.

1 Corinthians 14:32
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Our spirit is inside of us until death!

2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

There can be no spirit in the presence of God needing cleansing from filthiness.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Our spirit is within us until death!

 

[Postvieww]

Unless one's spirit is a demon, and seeking out humans or animals to possess.

A person's spirit cannot be a demon, but a person can be possessed by a demon! Two entirely different things.

 

[Postvieww]

Demons come to those who get involved in the occult, or by Satan to deceive us.

TRUE!

But demons are still a person's spirit, after such human becomes reprobate in their soul. Those who are reprobate, not only mess up their own lives but the source of those evil spirits and demons.

Demons are NOT a person's spirit they are entities all their own, but they can possess a person and control them.

When a demon is cast out the person still has their spirit or else they would be dead. The demon is an evil spirit that can enter, possess, or attach to individuals who allow it or invite it by being deceived, in most cases.

Demons have been roaming the earth for thousands of years, they are not the spirits of individuals they enter and control individuals.

 

[rwb]

Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Looks like your question is based on Job saying he will see God in his flesh. This is a figure of speech otherwise how do you reconcile the fact that Job also concedes that his skin and body will be destroyed? The flesh Job had in mind is the spiritual body and I've already explained that while it may look like a physical body, it is not.

The body believers receive when they are resurrected and changed to immortal and incorruptible body is PHYSICAL and indwelt by our eternal spirit that God will bring with Jesus when He returns the second time.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Job understands his natural body will return to the earth from which it came, but he also understands that death of his natural body will not take his life. Why? Because Job understands that his Redeemer lives! And that He shall stand upon the earth in the end. If his Redeemer lives, he shall live also! These are prophetic words from Job that were fulfilled when Christ came to earth a man. Job knew his Redeemer would come, and because He would come to earth, Job understood he too would live even though his body is destroyed by death.

IOW Job knew he would be redeemed from the grave and in the end of days he would once again stand upon the earth a new physical man. How could Job believe he would still live even though he physically dies? Because his Redeemer lives, even though He had not yet physically come. How could Job's Redeemer be alive since He has not yet come? Through the Spirit! In the same way believers live after physical death through His Spirit in our spirit giving believers everlasting life. Job clearly understood death is not the end for those who know the Redeemer.

Job 19:25-27 (KJV) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Job 19:25 (WEB) But as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives. In the end, he will stand upon the earth.

 

[rwb]

I obviously already get that. But that is not exactly what rwb said. He said past events not events happening when these prophets are seeing these visions.

David, the prophets speak as though the events they see are already past events, though they are future events.

 

[Postvieww]

Nowhere is it said that believers are made immortal at their death.

Are you talking about the immortality of a persons spirit or a resurrected glorified body? Two entirely different things.

Acts 13:36,,,David sleeps in death, proves you wrong.

This verse proves nothing of the kind! Scripture does not teach soul sleep. You twist and contort the scriptures to try and make them say that. Scripture often refers to death as sleep but when comparing scripture to scripture it should be clear to anyone that it is a reference to the physical body not the soul and spirit!

Matthew 17:3
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

The body of Moses was dead (asleep) but here he is talking with Jesus, Some people talk in their sleep but I seriously doubt that is what is happening here.

1. 2 Corinthians 5:6
   Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
   
   
2. 2 Corinthians 5:8
   We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

The bodies are dead the souls are conscious anyway you parse the scriptures.

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

These conscious thinking souls talk to the Lord and again it is highly unlikely they are talking in their sleep.

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

In your version these sleeping beauties are given nice PJ's and told to wait. Told to wait means they could hear and reason.

Yes I know you have said before sometimes God makes exceptions. Well that is convenient for your doctrine but not reasonable when comparing scripture to scripture.

Maybe you should not ignore everything else in scripture that goes cross wise of your interpretation of
Ecclesiastes 9:5

I believe in context the above passage is referring to presence on earth not the state of the spirit in the after life. If you would like to discuss the entire chapter in context we can do that it might shed some light on your miss use of the passage.

 

[Timtofly]

Without a spirit mankind has no life, because having a spirit is to possess a mind and the ability to breathe. All mankind has a natural spirit, but not all of mankind has the Holy Spirit. Because the world (unbelievers) cannot receive Him.

You are making the soul redundant.

The soul is who we are, not the spirit. The spirit makes us in the image of God.

The soul is the image of the Holy Spirit. The body is the image of the Word. The spirit is the image of God.

All humans can submit to the Holy Spirit. They just choose not to submit.

 

[rwb]

You are making the soul redundant.

The soul is who we are, not the spirit. The spirit makes us in the image of God.

The soul is the image of the Holy Spirit. The body is the image of the Word. The spirit is the image of God.

All humans can submit to the Holy Spirit. They just choose not to submit.

What??? You make absolute ZERO sense!