3 key questions concerning eschatology

[rwb]

Convoluted nonsense.
The Bible does tell us who will receive Eternal Life: those whose names are Written in the Book of Life.
Yes; those who have died, like David before the final Judgment, when the Book of Life will be opened, Revelation 20:11-15, will receive immortality; AFTER the Millennium.
Until that time, ALL the dead are in a state of 'soul sleep'.

Soul sleep??? I think not for believers who die Keras! The souls seen in heaven are alive and Scripture indicates they worship and sing praises to the Almighty! Your doctrine will not permit those who die in faith to ascend to the Lord in heaven as spiritual life because it blows your ONE thousand years of more time on this earth apart.

At the GWTJ the book of life is opened to see whose name is NOT written there! Those not found written in the book of life are the DEAD, not those who are alive and already clothed in immortality and incorruption standing at the right hand of the Lord.

Revelation 20:15 (KJV) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Your Ephesians 4:7-10 quote does not prove the idea of the saints in heaven now.
In fact, that idea conflicts with all the Bible teachings about what happens at death. Isaiah 38:10-20

Yes, in fact Ephesians 4:7-10 indeed does prove that after His resurrection, having defeated death, Christ descended into the place of the dead saints through His Spirit and set those captives of death free, taking them with Him when He ascended to heaven. You can deny this fact all you like and continue to torture the Scripture with your nonsensical doctrine, but that will not change the TRUTH!

 

[DavidPT]

At the GWTJ the book of life is opened to see whose name is NOT written there! Those not found written in the book of life are the DEAD, not those who are alive and already clothed in immortality and incorruption standing at the right hand of the Lord.

Revelation 20:15 (KJV) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Regardless that you and I disagree on the timing of this, we are in full agreement involving what you said here since I fully agree with this. It's silly to think that those that have already put on bodily immortality in the twinkling of an eye at the 2nd coming, which shows that that event obviously precedes the GWTJ event no matter how you look at it, that they are still being viewed as the dead. Once Jesus put on bodily immortality when He rose, is the Father or anyone else for that matter, still viewing Him as the dead? Of course not. No one that has put on bodily immortality could possibly still be viewed like that.

Like I request of Amils involving Daniel 7:9-12, the fact that involves the little horn, the beast recorded in Revelation 19:20, being cast into the LOF, and that most Amils insist Daniel 7:9-12 is involving the same judgment recorded in Revelation 20:12-15, and if that is true, how about pointing out where one is seeing in the text that the little horn is standing among the dead in Revelation 20:12-15?

In the same way then, anyone insisting that any saints that have already put on bodily immortality prior to the GWTJ, that they too are standing among the dead recorded in Revelation 20:12-15, and if that is true, how about pointing out where one is seeing in the text, those that have already put on bodily immortality, standing among the dead in Revelation 20:12-15?

To me it makes no sense for anyone to be critical of Keras' view involving Revelation 20:12-15, if they themselves are insisting something just as preposterous, that Daniel 7:9-12 is involving the same judgment recorded in Revelation 20:12-15. No it isn't. Clearly, Revelation 20 records that the beast is already in the LOF before the judgment involving
verses 12-15 even take place. How then could Daniel 7:9-12 and Revelation 20:12-15 be involving the same judgment?

Once again, if that is true, where in Revelation 20:12-15 is one seeing the beast also standing among the dead in those verses? Those verses involve being raised from the dead. Point out anywhere in the Bible that it ever records that the beast is killed first then is raised from the dead in order to be among the dead standing in front of God at the GWTJ recorded in Revelation 20:12-15.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone

As can be seen here, the beast is not killed first, then is raised from the dead, then cast into the LOF. Clearly, this is not involving what Revelation 20:12-15 is involving.

 

[Trivalee]

I view it exactly opposite! It is according to Christ preaching the Gospel unto all the world that causes the Church to suffer great tribulation. I'm convinced it is because you add "a" or "the" or perhaps your particular Bible translation does, that you have been taught to believe there will be a or the particular great tribulation that has not happened yet.

While it is true that all the earth suffers trials and tribulation in this world "great tribulation" according to Christ comes to the Church as the Gospel is preached unto all the world.

I hear you. It all comes down to hermeneutics, so, shall we agree to disagree?

If God allows "great tribulation" to continue to the point where there are none left to preach the Gospel unto the nations of the world, then the elect will not be saved, because the unrighteous will utterly destroy this planet. If there is no earth to be made new again for the children of God, then the elect has not an eternal Kingdom to abide with Christ forever.

You said, "If God allows "great tribulation" to continue to the point where there are none left to preach the Gospel unto the nations of the world, then the elect will not be saved".

The only problem with your view is that the "elect" are saved believers, not unbelievers that need to be preached to. They are the ones preaching the gospel. IOW, what you said above is: "If God allows the GT to the point where no preacher (elect) is left to preach to the nations, the elect (preachers) will not be saved". Perhaps you can see the fault line in your argument.

 

[Trivalee]

But when that happens isn't until AFTER the Millennium. Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more.
Any resurrections before then, are physical, like Lazarus was.
Revelation 29:4-6 states the GT martyrs will be brought back to life and over them their second death will not affect their receiving immortality at the GWT Judgment.

1 Corinthians 15: 42-44 says the dead will rise in an incorruptible spiritual body. Thus, they will have immortality during the millennium.

 

[Trivalee]

He

Just one question. In your view what the the difference in the flesh Job will see God in and the spirit that returns to God upon death?

According to Eccl 12:7, the spirit (that gives life to the flesh) returns to God. It is the soul (that has the capacity for pain, emotion, etc) that will see God. It is the souls under the altar in Rev 6:10 that are demanding revenge, not the spirit. My point is that the spirit is merely a life force and nothing more. It is the soul that interacts with God.

Look at it this way: we are told that the just will arise in an incorruptible and spiritual body. Notice that the wicked will not have access to this incorruptible and spiritual body. Below is said about the resurrection of the wicked.

Rev 20:13 the sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

Again, notice the scripture didn't say in which body they arise. The reason is simple; it is the soul of the wicked that rises to judgment and is subsequently cast into the fire, in my opinion. It is arguable whether they will arise in some sort of body - if they do, it certainly will not be the physical body lost at death.

 

[keras]

1 Corinthians 15: 42-44 says the dead will rise in an incorruptible spiritual body. Thus, they will have immortality during the millennium.

The only dead people who will rise when Jesus Returns will be the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4
They will be brought back to life, and they may die again, as Rev 20:5-6 says. Like Lazarus did.

The idea of anyone receiving immortality before the GWT Judgment, is wrong and cannot happen.
1 Corinthians 15:42-56, is Prophecy entirely about what will happen after the Millennium.
Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more.

 

[Trivalee]

He

Just one question. In your view what the the difference in the flesh Job will see God in and the spirit that returns to God upon death?

Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Looks like your question is based on Job saying he will see God in his flesh. This is a figure of speech otherwise how do you reconcile the fact that Job also concedes that his skin and body will be destroyed? The flesh Job had in mind is the spiritual body and I've already explained that while it may look like a physical body, it is not.

 

[Trivalee]

The only dead people who will rise when Jesus Returns will be the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4
They will be brought back to life, and they may die again, as Rev 20:5-6 says. Like Lazarus did.

The idea of anyone receiving immortality before the GWT Judgment, is wrong and cannot happen.
1 Corinthians 15:42-56, is Prophecy entirely about what will happen after the Millennium.
Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more.

Sorry. I see it differently.

 

[rwb]

You said, "If God allows "great tribulation" to continue to the point where there are none left to preach the Gospel unto the nations of the world, then the elect will not be saved".

The only problem with your view is that the "elect" are saved believers, not unbelievers that need to be preached to. They are the ones preaching the gospel. IOW, what you said above is: "If God allows the GT to the point where no preacher (elect) is left to preach to the nations, the elect (preachers) will not be saved". Perhaps you can see the fault line in your argument.

That's the purpose for great tribulation being shortened. Mankind is not born saved, they are born to be saved, even the elect of God. One must hear the Gospel and believe Christ for salvation to have eternal life. But if God did not cut short great tribulation as it comes in various times and ages, then there would be none left to preach the Gospel of salvation to, because Satan and his minions would destroy the whole earth and everyone on it. For it is the goal of Satan to keep the Kingdom from being complete and he will stop at nothing while trying to accomplish this task.

 

[rwb]

According to Eccl 12:7, the spirit (that gives life to the flesh) returns to God. It is the soul (that has the capacity for pain, emotion, etc) that will see God. It is the souls under the altar in Rev 6:10 that are demanding revenge, not the spirit. My point is that the spirit is merely a life force and nothing more. It is the soul that interacts with God.

But how does the spirit of man that comes from God return to Him in death? Is it with the Spirit of God Who gives life eternally, or is it without the life-giving Spirit? The Lord has promised that when we receive the Spirit of life, He will never leave us until the redemption of that which was purchased (our body).

John 14:16-17 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

It is because believers are indwelt with the life-giving Spirit of God that when our physical body dies, as spiritual (living) body, we ascend to heaven to be with the Lord. That's why Paul says, "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." The two are not the same for the one is of the earth, of the first Adam, the second is of the Spirit, spiritual and of Christ. In life we are in the image of the first man and in death if we are of Christ, having the life-giving Spirit in us, we shall be spiritual (having life) like the Lord from heaven.

 

[rwb]

Regardless that you and I disagree on the timing of this, we are in full agreement involving what you said here since I fully agree with this. It's silly to think that those that have already put on bodily immortality in the twinkling of an eye at the 2nd coming, which shows that that event obviously precedes the GWTJ event no matter how you look at it, that they are still being viewed as the dead. Once Jesus put on bodily immortality when He rose, is the Father or anyone else for that matter, still viewing Him as the dead? Of course not. No one that has put on bodily immortality could possibly still be viewed like that.

Like I request of Amils involving Daniel 7:9-12, the fact that involves the little horn, the beast recorded in Revelation 19:20, being cast into the LOF, and that most Amils insist Daniel 7:9-12 is involving the same judgment recorded in Revelation 20:12-15, and if that is true, how about pointing out where one is seeing in the text that the little horn is standing among the dead in Revelation 20:12-15?

In the same way then, anyone insisting that any saints that have already put on bodily immortality prior to the GWTJ, that they too are standing among the dead recorded in Revelation 20:12-15, and if that is true, how about pointing out where one is seeing in the text, those that have already put on bodily immortality, standing among the dead in Revelation 20:12-15?

To me it makes no sense for anyone to be critical of Keras' view involving Revelation 20:12-15, if they themselves are insisting something just as preposterous, that Daniel 7:9-12 is involving the same judgment recorded in Revelation 20:12-15. No it isn't. Clearly, Revelation 20 records that the beast is already in the LOF before the judgment involving
verses 12-15 even take place. How then could Daniel 7:9-12 and Revelation 20:12-15 be involving the same judgment?

Once again, if that is true, where in Revelation 20:12-15 is one seeing the beast also standing among the dead in those verses? Those verses involve being raised from the dead. Point out anywhere in the Bible that it ever records that the beast is killed first then is raised from the dead in order to be among the dead standing in front of God at the GWTJ recorded in Revelation 20:12-15.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone

As can be seen here, the beast is not killed first, then is raised from the dead, then cast into the LOF. Clearly, this is not involving what Revelation 20:12-15 is involving.

Daniel is seeing what will be at the GWTJ. The prophets speak as though things that shall come are past events.

 

[Trivalee]

That's the purpose for great tribulation being shortened. Mankind is not born saved, they are born to be saved, even the elect of God. One must hear the Gospel and believe Christ for salvation to have eternal life. But if God did not cut short great tribulation as it comes in various times and ages, then there would be none left to preach the Gospel of salvation to, because Satan and his minions would destroy the whole earth and everyone on it. For it is the goal of Satan to keep the Kingdom from being complete and he will stop at nothing while trying to accomplish this task.

Your position is clear, but I don't see it that way.

 

[Trivalee]

But how does the spirit of man that comes from God return to Him in death? Is it with the Spirit of God Who gives life eternally, or is it without the life-giving Spirit? The Lord has promised that when we receive the Spirit of life, He will never leave us until the redemption of that which was purchased (our body).

John 14:16-17 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

It is because believers are indwelt with the life-giving Spirit of God that when our physical body dies, as spiritual (living) body, we ascend to heaven to be with the Lord. That's why Paul says, "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." The two are not the same for the one is of the earth, of the first Adam, the second is of the Spirit, spiritual and of Christ. In life we are in the image of the first man and in death if we are of Christ, having the life-giving Spirit in us, we shall be spiritual (having life) like the Lord from heaven.

Your argument is confusing and I'm not sure I understand it. Your statement above (in blue highlight) alludes to everybody, surely you recognise it can't be true as the wicked will share a different fate with the faithful - the wicked will not ascend to heaven as you put it.

 

[rwb]

Your argument is confusing and I'm not sure I understand it. Your statement above (in blue highlight) alludes to everybody, surely you recognise it can't be true as the wicked will share a different fate with the faithful - the wicked will not ascend to heaven as you put it.

Even the spirit of the wicked returns to God. But since the wicked return without being indwelt with the Holy Spirit of life their spirit returns to God without life. And notice Ecclesiastes says the spirit returns to God when that which is dust (body) returns to the earth (dies).

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit of the wicked is no different than that of the beasts according to Solomon. Speaking of the sons of men (unbelievers, not sons of God), Solomon says the same befalls them as that which befalls the beasts of the earth in death. Because in death the spirit of the wicked goes downward to the earth, while the spirit of the righteous (sons of God) goes upward in death.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-22 (KJV) I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

Without the life-giving Spirit in them when man dies their breath of life (spirit) ceases, but for the one born of the Spirit the breath of life (spirit) given them from God returns alive to God in heaven where we will be until the last day of this age when the seventh angel begins to sound that time shall be no more.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Breath - blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

Of life - :— age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, merry, multitude, (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

Soul - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.

A man can be a living (spirit) soul without a physical body, but the body without a living (spirit) soul is altogether without life. To be a spiritual body is to be a living soul. Which is what we find in heaven of those who have died in faith since the resurrection and ascension of Christ.

 

[Douggg]

A man can be a living (spirit) soul without a physical body, but the body without a living (spirit) soul is altogether without life. To be a spiritual body is to be a living soul. Which is what we find in heaven of those who have died in faith since the resurrection and ascension of Christ.

I think a spirit is a non-physical being. With the term spirit being a general description, like man is for humans. What distinguishes died humans (physically) who become spirits from each other is that our soul is unique to each of us.

Since the Holy Spirit becomes present within any believer - forever, the Holy Spirit resides with us forever in our soul. So that when a believer dies, the Holy Spirit remains with them in their soul.

A living soul, as it applies to made from the dust of the earth beings, just means a created being that has a living physical body.

 

[rwb]

I think a spirit is a non-physical being. With the term spirit being a general description, like man is for humans. What distinguishes died humans (physically) who become spirits from each other is that our soul is unique to each of us.

Since the Holy Spirit becomes present within any believer - forever, the Holy Spirit resides with us forever in our soul. So that when a believer dies, the Holy Spirit remains with them in their soul.

A living soul, as it applies to made from the dust of the earth beings, just means a created being that has a living physical body.

Spirit, which every breathing creature has means to possess the breath of life from God. It is the spirit (breath of life) in our body that gives our body life. Christ tells us that when we live and believe in Him the life our spirit receives through His Spirit in us is eternal and will never die. The physical body of believers dies, but our spirit which is the breath of life we receive from God, continues to live after physical death because the Holy Spirit in us continues to give life to our spirit through Him. That's why we read about living souls in heaven. To be a living soul in heaven is to be alive as spiritual being or spiritual soul. Paul calls this a spiritual body that is NOT natural, but supernaturally alive through the Spirit in us.

In the beginning God created from the dust of the earth a lump in human form. Then He breathed into the lump His breath of life (spirit), and the two together became a living soul. In death our body returns to dust, but His breath of life (spirit) breathed into mankind returns back to God. If His breath of life (spirit) breathed into man is alive through His Spirit when it returns to God, then that breath of life (spirit) cannot die. Because if both our outward man and our inward spirit (breath of life) cease in physical death, then Christ would not have said the life we receive when we live and believe in Him shall NEVER DIE. How could Christ make that promise to believers if death causes both body and spirit (breath of life) to cease in death?

I believe Christ, and you should also, because Christ would not tell us the life we receive through Him is eternal if it were not true. Christ said this knowing that natural man of flesh/dust (human body) is destined to die.

 

[keras]

I believe Christ, and you should also, because Christ would not tell us the life we receive through Him is eternal if it were not true. Christ said this knowing that natural man of flesh/dust (human body) is destined to die.

When we accept the Salvation offered by Jesus, we receive the Promise of Eternal life and our names are Written in the Book of Life. John 3:16
But it is possible for our name to be blotted out, if we fall into sin. Exodus 32:33, Psalms 69:28

Revelation 20:11-15, is plain: ONLY when the Book of Life is opened, will anyone receive immortality.

 

[rwb]

When we accept the Salvation offered by Jesus, we receive the Promise of Eternal life and our names are Written in the Book of Life. John 3:16
But it is possible for our name to be blotted out, if we fall into sin. Exodus 32:39, Psalms 69:28

Revelation 20:11-15, is plain: ONLY when the Book of Life is opened, will anyone receive immortality.

We become saved because our names have been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Our names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life when we become saved. Our names are there before the foundation of the world.

Luke 10:20 (KJV) Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Philippians 4:3 (KJV) And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Revelation 3:5 (KJV) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 (KJV) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

There is more than one book in heaven from which the dead are judged. To be written among the book of the living is not the same as being written among the elect whose names are recorded in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 20:12 (KJV) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

There is both in heaven books that record the living, and there is also one book called the Lambs Book of Life. When one dies their names are blotted out of the books of the living, but when our names are written in the Lambs Book of Life they will never be blotted out.

Isaiah 4:3 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

These two verses are not saying the righteous can be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life. The Lord tells Moses the one who sins against Him shall be blotted out of the book of the living, or that one shall die. Moses will not die nor be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life because he is righteous before God.

Exodus 32:32-33 (KJV) Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin—; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

And in this Psalm David is praying that the LORD will destroy those who commit iniquity against him, so he asks God to not let them continue to live among the righteous, but rather blot them out from among the living, so their names are no longer recorded among those living in righteousness.

Psalm 69:27-29 (KJV) Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. But I am poor and sorrowful: let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high.

When the Book of Life is opened at the GWTJ the righteous have already received immortal and incorruptible bodies of flesh. Because the physical bodies of all who have ever lived will be resurrected to stand before God at Judgment Day. But when all who have done good are bodily resurrected on the last day of this age, they will also be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. But for those resurrected who have done evil, they will be physically resurrected to be judged by what is written in the books, and since they are "the dead" they will not be found written in the Book of Life, and therefore they will be cast into the eternal flames.

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

While the dead bodies of all who in life remained spiritually dead are resurrected to damnation, the dead bodies of all who have done good are resurrected and changed into incorruptible and immortal bodies of flesh to live with Christ forever on the new earth.

1 Corinthians 15:52-53 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world? According to the Word of God "whosoever believes", all who are born again, born from above, born of the Spirit of Christ while alive in this age are the elect of God, and have no fear of the second death, that is the Lake of Fire. And when Christ returns the second time, believers clothed in immortal and incorruptible bodies of flesh will be re-united with our eternal spirits that Christ brings back with Him when He comes again from heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[Trivalee]

Even the spirit of the wicked returns to God. But since the wicked return without being indwelt with the Holy Spirit of life their spirit returns to God without life. And notice Ecclesiastes says the spirit returns to God when that which is dust (body) returns to the earth (dies).

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit of the wicked is no different than that of the beasts according to Solomon. Speaking of the sons of men (unbelievers, not sons of God), Solomon says the same befalls them as that which befalls the beasts of the earth in death. Because in death the spirit of the wicked goes downward to the earth, while the spirit of the righteous (sons of God) goes upward in death.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-22 (KJV) I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

Without the life-giving Spirit in them when man dies their breath of life (spirit) ceases, but for the one born of the Spirit the breath of life (spirit) given them from God returns alive to God in heaven where we will be until the last day of this age when the seventh angel begins to sound that time shall be no more.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Breath - blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

Of life - :— age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, merry, multitude, (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

Soul - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.

A man can be a living (spirit) soul without a physical body, but the body without a living (spirit) soul is altogether without life. To be a spiritual body is to be a living soul. Which is what we find in heaven of those who have died in faith since the resurrection and ascension of Christ.

Thank you so much for taking the time to clarify.

 

[Timtofly]

I agree that the Lord appeared in a body that could be touched after his resurrection. But it is wrong to describe that body as "physical"; because it is more than that. There is a reason we are told in 1 Cor 15:42-44 that although we die in a physical/natural body, we resurrect in a spiritual body. So, you must make up your mind about whether Paul was right or wrong.

The primary reason the bible was explicit that the resurrected body is not physical (even though it looks as such) is to enable the reader to understand that the resurrected body is devoid of all the weaknesses and infirmities inherent in the flesh/physical body we had prior to death.

The Brother I responded to, claimed that the resurrected incorruptible bodies will reproduce and repopulate the earth in the millennium. What's your take on that?

The point is that Adam's flesh is dead and corrupt. Corruption cannot inherent eternal life, not even if it kept eating from the tree of life. That is not inheriting. That is maintaining.

The physical body from above, from God, is the original image of God. A permanent incorruptible physical body.

Those in the Millennium do not have Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They have a sin free permanent incorruptible physical body.


As for procreation, that is on earth, after the physical change done in judgment by Jesus Himself. These people are the Millennium firstfruits. The resurrection into Paradise was the one that took away procreation. Paradise does not need to be repopulated by procreation. Paradise has been populated by souls leaving this earth, and physically entering Paradise for the last 1992 years. Procreation was being done on earth, and some were born spiritually into that family while on earth. They were physically part of Paradise upon physical death, leaving Adam's dead flesh behind for God's permanent incorruptible physical bodies. That is the blessed aspect of the first resurrection.

BTW: a single general resurrection is not just an Amil thought process. Many of the ecf formed the accepted theogical stance of a single future resurrection. They totally overlooked the OT physical resurrection at the Cross, because it was not taught as accepted common public knowledge. In fact it could be stated that Mark was the basis for the Gentile formation of most Gentile doctrine. They did not have to include Matthew and his points as they were addressed to the Hebrew audience and lost to time. If Matthew had not mentioned it, no one would even associated what Paul taught with what Mark wrote, and we would have never known at all. As brief as Matthew was in the point, and since what happened in Jerusalem was buried by the Jewish revolt itself, that point of time in Jerusalem was practically wiped clean.

Even today no one seems to want to accept a physical bodily resurrection at the Cross, where the whole OT assembly ascended to Paradise with Jesus. Many don't even want to make a distinction between Abraham's bosom in sheol, with Paradise in the firmament since the Flood. They may accept some form of transference of a concept at the time of the Cross. But how can you avoid having the tree of life down in sheol, when it was banned from Adam's descendants, even in death? Why would a soul need to eat from the physical tree of life? Why would the tree of life stop being physical and enter sheol as a concept?

I don't know if Augustine was the first to introduce these points, nor do I even know what exactly he taught. I have never read the whole body of his works. I have just read about them. But if he taught Paradise entered sheol and became Abraham's bosom, he was wrong. Scripture never conflates Paradise with Abraham's bosom.

Abraham's bosom was no longer necessary, as all were in Christ at that point. Not waiting in faith like Abraham. Perhaps even Paul was conflicted on the issue. He was not sure if they had bodies in Paradise. Certainly he claimed the dead in Christ rise first. Even that has been misconstrued.