3 key questions concerning eschatology

[Timtofly]

No but you ruled out any other possibility. Reprobate pre flood humans are never called sons of God in scripture. Let’s start there. There is another solution to this issue. Stating as fact something that is not even hinted at in scripture is not a good start.

I never said reprobate humans were the sons of God. Reprobate humans were the offspring of sons of God with Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They did not change Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They only changed their outlook on life and became more wicked that even Adam and Eve.

Why do you think these reprobate humans were destroyed by the Flood? They were not able to be redeemed.

When it gets to the point where humans receive the mark. They will be passed redemption as well. Obviously their spirits will not become demons like the spirits of those pre-flood humans. There will be no sin, nor Satan during the Millennium. Why would demons be allowed?

 

[Postvieww]

The writer of the book of Enoch had as much information as Darwin had. Jude 1:14

You do realize the scripture you just posted from Jude was quoted from the the book of Enoch?

 

[Postvieww]

I never said reprobate humans were the sons of God. Reprobate humans were the offspring of sons of God with Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They did not change Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They only changed their outlook on life and became more wicked that even Adam and Eve.

Why do you think these reprobate humans were destroyed by the Flood? They were not able to be redeemed.

Can you back up any of this from scripture?

 

[Postvieww]

Reprobate humans were the offspring of sons of God with Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Please explain just exactly who you believe these reprobate humans are and exactly who you believe these sons of God are and where they came from. Any scripture you can provide will be helpful.

 

[Postvieww]

Genesis, Job, and Jude do not define the sons of God as angels. That is your theory.

Job 38:4-7 There were no humans shouting for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth!
Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
No theory. Angels kept not their first estate , giving themselves over to formication and going after strange flesh.
Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 1. A union between a human men and human women does not produce clans of giants. There are numerous giant clans referred to in scripture . 2. Sons of God in Job shouting for joy when God lain the foundations of the earth cannot be humans they were angels. 3. The angels in Jude are the same angels (sons of God) in Genesis 6 When discussing this very topic with a pastor friend of mine he told me “with scripture I cannot prove what you say wrong but I choose not to believe it “. You my friend are in that same position, you may choose not to believe it but you can only declare it not so, but you have no Scripture to support that declaration. I have given you reasons from scripture you have not done the same for your position. There are no references in the OT to sons of God that are humans. NT sons of God are born again believers in Christ that was not the case in the OT. NT references to sons of God DO NOT define OT references!

 

[Postvieww]

We know from the NT the sons of God are humans. Why does that not clarify any OT mention of the sons of God? Using Scripture in the NT we can know who the sons of God were in the OT. They were humans not born from Adam and Eve

It does not define OT sons of God Because.1. There were no born again believers in Christ in the OT. 2. There were no born again believers in Christ shouting for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth. 3. There were no born again believers in Christ in Genesis 6 producing giants. 4. Genesis 6 makes a distinction between sons of God (angels) and daughters of men ( humans) . The scripture does not say daughters of the sons of God . Look I get it, many choose not to believe this could happen but so far you have offered no reasons from scripture that it is not true.

 

[Postvieww]

And all you can do is criticize posters.

Asking you to back up your claims with scripture is not criticizing it is common sense protocol in a forum setting. You make claims, you back them up with reasoned scriptural arguments. That is the way to debate issues.

 

[Timtofly]

You do realize the scripture you just posted from Jude was quoted from the the book of Enoch?

Do you have that quote? That is the point. Enoch did not write the book of Enoch. There is a claim made that Enoch gave a prophecy. That is all the information that is relevant, no?

You are basing the authority of Scripture found in this text, that was written a few hundred years before Jude wrote his letter, on the one tenant that Jude quoted this book.

The pertinent quote being that someone is coming with a huge army. Jude did not need to read Enoch to know Enoch was the 7th generation from Adam. That can be found in Genesis 5. Even Luke gave a genealogy. We have no idea what was common knowledge in the first century, nor where that common knowledge came from.

All we have are bits and pieces of copies of writings in the thousands all brought together by humans into a single book as best they could.

 

[Timtofly]

Can you back up any of this from scripture?

Which points? God said Adam would die, and he did. Genesis 2.

1 Kings 22 tells us where spirits are located and how they operate.

A demon or devil is not a created entity. They are spirits that can no longer be in the presence of God.

Romans 1 explains how spirits go from good to bad. Spirits are not created good or bad. They just are.

How they act as Satan's army is the occult. God told us not to get involved, to the point of not even trying to figure out this spiritual aspect of His will and plan. Yet even the apostles could remove a demon from a person.

The major eastern religions are based on this spiritual phenomenon. Humans are spiritually blind for a reason. Paul never said to figure it all out. He did say that we are in a battle with the spiritual unseen world, and not against flesh and blood. It is when humans start letting Satan have control is when he uses this spiritual world against them.

We are still talking about Genesis 6, no? At what generation after Adam do you think this happened? Noah lived 500 years watching it happen, and he was 3 generations after Enoch. Do you not think there were dozens of generations of the sons of God on earth as well as Seth, who had thousands of offspring? Genesis 6 indicates these sons of God were on the earth as long as Adam was. And Adam was called a son of God, until he disobeyed. Then he physically and spiritually died. He lived out death in dead corruptible flesh for 900 years before his physical body finally gave out.

Don't you agree with Paul that this flesh is dead, corruptible, and temporal? It is barely expected to last 80 years. In the first century life expectancy was only 30 to 40 years.

 

[Timtofly]

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
No theory. Angels kept not their first estate , giving themselves over to formication and going after strange flesh.
Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

What Scripture do you have those angels chained up were loosed from the pit and living in Sodom and Gomorrah? You do realize this was hundreds of years after the Flood and these were the offspring of Noah living in the ME?

You are conflating post Flood historical records with pre-flood conditions that started probably 700 years before the Flood and Noah lived over 800 years after the angels were already bound in the pit. It was Noah's sisters, cousins, and aunts who were having these rebel offspring with the sons of God, and it was Noah's family who were the dead corruptible flesh in the image of Adam. The sons of God were without sin, and they were having sinful offspring with Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Why is this so complicated?

It was Noah's relatives who where becoming increasingly violent and wicked. These offspring were not getting better by being partly sons of God. The sons of God were becoming more and more like Adam's flesh, now sinners themselves. Noah was becoming the only righteous person, because every generation was becoming worse and worse for 500 years. That 500 years covered several generations of corruptible offspring.

 

[Timtofly]

It does not define OT sons of God Because.1. There were no born again believers in Christ in the OT. 2. There were no born again believers in Christ shouting for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth. 3. There were no born again believers in Christ in Genesis 6 producing giants. 4. Genesis 6 makes a distinction between sons of God (angels) and daughters of men ( humans) . The scripture does not say daughters of the sons of God . Look I get it, many choose not to believe this could happen but so far you have offered no reasons from scripture that it is not true.

You do realize that sons of God don't need to become sons of God? They were created that way, and without sin.

It is Adam's dead corruptible flesh that needs to be restored back to being sons of God.

The sons of God did not need to be born again. They were born without sin to begin with. That is like claiming Jesus was not God's son, but needed to die for His own sins to become a son of God. The whole point is that sons of God don't need redemption nor restoration. They are not the angels that left the firmament. They are humans like Adam before Adam disobeyed God, and corrupted all his offspring with sin and death.

I have offered everything from Scripture. Your interpretation of Scripture is highly suspect, and not even logical. I have not offered anything outside of Scripture, like those introducing the book of Enoch as their proof. A book not even written by Enoch. Hebrew mythology as twisted as Greek mythology.

Once again, angels are the stars. They do not have a soul, body, nor spirit. The sons of God are humans in the image of God, soul, body, and spirit.

You agree that angels are stars. Yet you then corrupt the very being of the sons of God by going against logic, and stripping away the point they have a soul, body, and spirit.

 

[Timtofly]

Asking you to back up your claims with scripture is not criticizing it is common sense protocol in a forum setting. You make claims, you back them up with reasoned scriptural arguments. That is the way to debate issues.

Have you read every conversation between Spiritual Jew and me over two different online platforms, for the last few years?

Why is calling a son of God human a special claim, when people call them angels, a claim not found in Scripture any where?

I have yet to see any Scripture to that point. I have seen conflated ideas that are not even logical.

You already agree that sons of God are humans in the NT. Why would that change in the OT? The definitions of words don't change over night. Why would you think the book of Enoch introduced such a drastic change of a word? When has mythology cleared up any issues or definitions?

 

[Postvieww]

What Scripture do you have those angels chained up were loosed from the pit and living in Sodom and Gomorrah? You do realize this was hundreds of years after the Flood and these were the offspring of Noah living in the ME?

What scripture do you have that tells us when fallen angels were locked up? When the book of Daniel was written they were not all locked up! They are not all chained up now!

Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

An angel came to answer Daniels prayer and was withstood by a fallen angel for 20 days and required the help of Michael. This is commonly accepted doctrine. Please don't try to tell me it took two angels of God to overpower a human prince.

Jude does not tell us when they were placed in chains. It seems you have made a lot pf assumptions not supportable by scripture. Nor does it tell us all fallen angels are in chains. I submit to you it was only the angels of Genesis 6 that left their own estate and and went into the daughters of men that are in chains today. We still have fallen angels Today that have areas they rule over. It should be obvious from Daniel that they were not all chained up then.

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

If all fallen angels are chained up tell us who these principalities and powers are that we wrestle against? You have a lot of things on this topic confused and appear to be unteachable.

 

[Postvieww]

Jude did not need to read Enoch to know Enoch was the 7th generation from Adam.

"Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints," That was not info Jude found in Genesis but he did find it in Enoch. Look I have never claimed Enoch has the same weight as scripture BUT it was read by the apostles some of them quoted it there are even some things Jesus said that are found in Enoch and it was written before Jesus came. All I am saying is it has some relevance to the church. Maybe Jesus , Jude and others such as early church fathers knew something you don't.

 

[Postvieww]

You are conflating post Flood historical records with pre-flood conditions that started probably 700 years before the Flood and Noah lived over 800 years after the angels were already bound in the pit..,

You can not prove your claim! No scripture tells us when angels or how many were chained in the pit. If you have one post it, I'll be looking for it.

 

[Timtofly]

An angel came to answer Daniels prayer and was withstood by a fallen angel for 20 days and required the help of Michael. This is commonly accepted doctrine. Please don't try to tell me it took two angels of God to overpower a human prince.

Then don't say that prince is a fallen angel unless it is stated. I am not going to say who that Prince was. He certainly was not a son of God.

As for being teachable, I was taught all that nonsense. But after reading more and understanding more of God's Word, the nonsense I was taught went away.

The angels who left their place in the firmament are not the sons of God in Genesis 6. If you reject the Sabbath Day as being a Day of the Lord, that is fine. No one Remembers the Sabbath as commanded, but we are not under that Law either.

Revelation claims that spirits are sent out to control the kings and rulers of the earth, if you really want an explanation, and sometimes a person possessed of demons cannot be handled by humans, and probably not one or two angels either. If they can brake chains, it is not because of physical strength anyways. It would be a spiritual power that humans just are not equipped to handle without outside help from God. There were not that many Holy Spirit filled Christians in Daniel's day. Daniel may have been the only representative of God, and that is why angels were dispatched.

 

[Postvieww]

Then don't say that prince is a fallen angel unless it is stated. I am not going to say who that Prince was. He certainly was not a son of God.

We are allowed to use common sense. What entity other than a supernatural one does it take two angels of God to overpower? Then what entity other than an evil one would fight two angels of God? You are very good at telling me how wrong I am but you don’t seem to have any answers to questions that contradict your theories.

 

[Timtofly]

You can not prove your claim! No scripture tells us when angels or how many were chained in the pit. If you have one post it, I'll be looking for it.

Revelation 12:4

"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

Don't you think they followed Satan at the time when Satan rebelled? Is that too much symbolism to lack a time frame? If they did not rebel until the first century AD, they certainly were not the sons of God in Genesis 6. Satan deceived Eve hundreds of years before Genesis 6. Is it that hard to point to when and why they left the firmament?

 

[Timtofly]

We are allowed to use common sense. What entity other than a supernatural one does it take two angels of God to overpower? Then what entity other than an evil one would fight two angels of God? You are very good at telling me how wrong I am but you don’t seem to have any answers to questions that contradict your theories.

When the spirits possess those 10 kings at Armageddon it takes Jesus Christ the King as God to defeat that army and Satan, the FP, and the beast. Why is this not common sense that spirits possessing humans changes them into something they originally were not?

When Jesus cast the legion into the pigs, no human could subdue that normal person possessed with that legion of demons. It took God that time as well.

Spirits are not created beings, nor fallen angels. I already pointed out who was created with a spirit, and that would be humans.

1 Kings 22 points out that spirits can work independently from their human they belong to. You have no control over what your spirit does. A reprobate human though is what causes a spirit to become a demon.

 

[Postvieww]

Revelation 12:4

"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

Don't you think they followed Satan at the time when Satan rebelled? Is that too much symbolism to lack a time frame? If they did not rebel until the first century AD, they certainly were not the sons of God in Genesis 6. Satan deceived Eve hundreds of years before Genesis 6. Is it that hard to point to when and why they left the firmament?

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. On your time line and belief system, when did or when will the above event happen?