JesusLovesOurLady

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I am on the verge of becoming a creationist there just isn't enough evidence in favour of evolution accept for three big problems with creation that I will now ask creationists to explain:

1. Carnivores: Where do carnivores come from? It's clear that God made carnivore specifically for hunting and killing pray and not for consuming plants. But how could carnivores exist in a pre-fall world where there was peace between animals and no killing? How do carnivores fit into the picture?

2. The Fossil record: Why do fossils fall into a specific place in the fossil record? Why do we never Trilobites and dinosaurs in the same strata? Yes I know people have found dinosaur bones and other mammals with blood and tissue still in them, but why has no one found a dinosaur fossil and human fossil together?

3. The Neanderthal Genome: Creationist have been saying Neanderthals are really humans, but recent evidence show clearly that Neanderthals are there own species (See, for example: here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tevSkylmvXk) What are Neanderthals? How do they fit into the picture of Salvation? Or is there some evidence debunking the claim that Neanderthals are there own species with there own genome?

So those are my three final questions regarding creationism. If someone can answer these questions, I'll be more than happy to become a creationist. Maybe later on can bring up my geological questions regarding Old vs Young Earth creationism.
 

Paul of Eugene OR

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I am on the verge of becoming a creationist there just isn't enough evidence in favour of evolution accept for three big problems with creation that I will now ask creationists to explain:

1. Carnivores: Where do carnivores come from? It's clear that God made carnivore specifically for hunting and killing pray and not for consuming plants. But how could carnivores exist in a pre-fall world where there was peace between animals and no killing? How do carnivores fit into the picture?

2. The Fossil record: Why do fossils fall into a specific place in the fossil record? Why do we never Trilobites and dinosaurs in the same strata? Yes I know people have found dinosaur bones and other mammals with blood and tissue still in them, but why has no one found a dinosaur fossil and human fossil together?

3. The Neanderthal Genome: Creationist have been saying Neanderthals are really humans, but recent evidence show clearly that Neanderthals are there own species (See, for example: here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tevSkylmvXk) What are Neanderthals? How do they fit into the picture of Salvation? Or is there some evidence debunking the claim that Neanderthals are there own species with there own genome?

So those are my three final questions regarding creationism. If someone can answer these questions, I'll be more than happy to become a creationist. Maybe later on can bring up my geological questions regarding Old vs Young Earth creationism.

To me, there's plenty of evidence for evolution. Your questions are good, but you could also ask about many other evidences. Such as the vestiges we have of previous species, the retroviral inserts we share with other species, the way new fossils fit into the same tree of life the previous fossils have helped establish, the way new findings keep coming along that support evolution. The retroviral insert situation, for example, has only come to our attention in the past few years.

But why insist evolution is against religion? If God can do anything, He can create all things through evolution as well as any other way. Why not accept the evidence that He did it via evolution? No hand of man planted those fossils, no hand of man inserted a broken vitamin c gene into our genomes, no hand of man inserted retroviral inserts into so many species in identical fashion . . . that has to have come from God.

Why not trust the direct word of God, revealed in the stars, the rocks, and the genomes?
 
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Gospel_van

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1. Pre-food animals were vegetarian. After the flood Animals become carnivorous. Through the process of adaptation (or micro evolution) animals are able to make changes in their genome to become a better fit for their environment. This is a mechanism Hod used and created to allow animals to survive in conditions that are not equal to the original creation (garden of Eden).
In the 70's some biologists introduced the Italian wall lizard to a new island. Within 30 years the lizards digestive tract changed, even a new structure was added, allowing the once carnivorous lizards to flourish on the new island eating a vegetarian diet. I can't find a real world example for animals being vegetarian then becoming carnivorous but the point is drastic changes can be made within the genome to allow the animal to survive, or even flourish, in a new environment.

2. Fossils don't really fall into a specific place. 99.9% of fossils are shells, the other 0.1% includes every mammal, every dinosaur, everything else we have found. Now, if you were to take 10 different types of sand, put them at the bottom of a big bottle and mix them up to randomize the order of the sand then add water and mix the bottle again something amazing happens—hydraulic sorting. The sands will group together according to density and make 10 layers of strata. The creations explanation for the fossil record is that it's a result of Noah's flood. When the flood water transgressed the sands would settle and stratify into the layers we see today. If trilobites, for example, were at the bottom of the ocean we would expect to see most trilobites towards the bottom of the strata (which we do) because the trilobites would have a hard time permeate upwards in the strata column. Same being with a dinosaur. A dinosaur started on land surface, not ocean depth. Therefore, we would not expect such a missive skeleton to sink below thousands of layers of sand. Not too many dinosaur skeletons have been found so the chances of humans and dinosaurs being found together would be slim. However, there are some claims of humans and dinosaur tracks (Puluxy tracks for one).

3. My take on the Neanderthals is that they are human. The skeletons are almost completely identical accept for the skull. A Notable difference in the skull would be the brow ridge. In humans the brow ridge never stops growing, think of how older men often have 'elongated' brow ridges compared to younger men. I believe that what these 'Neanderthals' really are is ancient humans the bible talked about. Noah lived to the 900's! We would expect to see a very large brow ridge on a 900 year old man, for instance. I am not convinced that the DNA is different from modern day humans, rather, the DNA of the Neanderthals is a more complete humans genome. After the fall, our genome began deteriorating (causing mutations among the offspring of close cousins). These skeletons might represent humans right after the fall and when lifespans were greater than modern humans.
 
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mindlight

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I am on the verge of becoming a creationist there just isn't enough evidence in favour of evolution accept for three big problems with creation that I will now ask creationists to explain:

1. Carnivores: Where do carnivores come from? It's clear that God made carnivore specifically for hunting and killing pray and not for consuming plants. But how could carnivores exist in a pre-fall world where there was peace between animals and no killing? How do carnivores fit into the picture?

The bible seems to suggest that these creatures were not created Carnivores at all. There are examples today of vegetarian lions who refused to eat meat their whole lives. Personally I think the Carnivore thing began before the flood and was a symptom of the wickedness that God judged the earth for.

True Story of a Gentle Vegetarian Lioness

2. The Fossil record: Why do fossils fall into a specific place in the fossil record? Why do we never Trilobites and dinosaurs in the same strata? Yes I know people have found dinosaur bones and other mammals with blood and tissue still in them, but why has no one found a dinosaur fossil and human fossil together?

The flood was a unique supernatural global event and there are no analogies by which we can understand it. That fossils formed in the patterns that they did was a feature of this flood. But in practice fossils are often found in the wrong geological layers and very often ( as in the example of the grand canyon whole layers are missing)

Chapter 17 FOSSILS AND STRATA Part 5

3. The Neanderthal Genome: Creationist have been saying Neanderthals are really humans, but recent evidence show clearly that Neanderthals are there own species (See, for example: here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tevSkylmvXk) What are Neanderthals? How do they fit into the picture of Salvation? Or is there some evidence debunking the claim that Neanderthals are there own species with there own genome?

So those are my three final questions regarding creationism. If someone can answer these questions, I'll be more than happy to become a creationist. Maybe later on can bring up my geological questions regarding Old vs Young Earth creationism.

Neanderthals could just be old humans with the superior regenerative capabilities of the pre flood population. They were generally more robust, had bigger brains, seemed adapted to a warmer climate than the one that followed the flood, there is evidence of innumerable fractures which healed again indicating a strong regenerative capability.
Some of those features are evident in individuals today. I have had a few acquaintances who look very much like Neanderthals.

Neanderthal anatomy - Wikipedia
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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1. Pre-food animals were vegetarian. After the flood Animals become carnivorous. Through the process of adaptation (or micro evolution) animals are able to make changes in their genome to become a better fit for their environment. This is a mechanism God used and created to allow animals to survive in conditions that are not equal to the original creation (garden of Eden).

And if micro evolution is added to micro evolution, you get macro evolution, just like enough pennies can add up to a million dollars.

In the 70's some biologists introduced the Italian wall lizard to a new island. Within 30 years the lizards digestive tract changed, even a new structure was added, allowing the once carnivorous lizards to flourish on the new island eating a vegetarian diet. I can't find a real world example for animals being vegetarian then becoming carnivorous but the point is drastic changes can be made within the genome to allow the animal to survive, or even flourish, in a new environment.

Imagine what a hundred thousand years could do!

2. Fossils don't really fall into a specific place. 99.9% of fossils are shells, the other 0.1% includes every mammal, every dinosaur, everything else we have found. Now, if you were to take 10 different types of sand, put them at the bottom of a big bottle and mix them up to randomize the order of the sand then add water and mix the bottle again something amazing happens—hydraulic sorting. The sands will group together according to density and make 10 layers of strata. The creations explanation for the fossil record is that it's a result of Noah's flood. When the flood water transgressed the sands would settle and stratify into the layers we see today. If trilobites, for example, were at the bottom of the ocean we would expect to see most trilobites towards the bottom of the strata (which we do) because the trilobites would have a hard time permeate upwards in the strata column. Same being with a dinosaur. A dinosaur started on land surface, not ocean depth. Therefore, we would not expect such a missive skeleton to sink below thousands of layers of sand.

So why do we never see elephants fossilized with dinosaurs? Why no rhinoceroses with the triceratops? Why no soaring vultures with the pteranodons?
 
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Shempster

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So you take Genesis literally but assume that the days (Yom) are extended periods of time?
Not really. That would just be a mixture of evolution and creationism. Like water and oil, they don't mix.
No, I am saying that in Gen 1:1, we are told that God created the earth in the beginning.
We are told that the earth was formless and void. Im not the best at explaining it, but it basically says that the earth BECAME formless and void. As in, it was completely destroyed........then Gen 1:2 begins with God renewing the earth, rather than making it out of nothing. Thats the gap theory in a nutshell. Again, I'm not 100% sold on it, but it answers many tough questions.
I would like to think that the age of the dinosaurs occurred at that time. The earth was obviously hit with asteroids in the past and it would appear that the earth was flooded...because God was hovering over the waters.
 
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Gospel_van

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And if micro evolution is added to micro evolution, you get macro evolution, just like enough pennies can add up to a million dollars.



Imagine what a hundred thousand years could do!





So why do we never see elephants fossilized with dinosaurs? Why no rhinoceroses with the triceratops? Why no soaring vultures with the pteranodons?
Your claim is that Micro evolution + time = macro evolution.
This would require animals to add information to the genome? Do you have any examples of this?

You can add more time, but it doesn't mean more changes will happen. Take a crocodile for instance—very little changes have been made compared to the fossilized crocodiles and modern crocodiles. The same can be said about Jelly fish and dozens of other animals.

We probably don't see elephants fossilized near dinosaurs because 1.) these fossilizations are rather rare. 2.) they live in different environments.

Are you a Christian?
 
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Gospel_van

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Not really. That would just be a mixture of evolution and creationism. Like water and oil, they don't mix.
No, I am saying that in Gen 1:1, we are told that God created the earth in the beginning.
We are told that the earth was formless and void. Im not the best at explaining it, but it basically says that the earth BECAME formless and void. As in, it was completely destroyed........then Gen 1:2 begins with God renewing the earth, rather than making it out of nothing. Thats the gap theory in a nutshell. Again, I'm not 100% sold on it, but it answers many tough questions.
I would like to think that the age of the dinosaurs occurred at that time. The earth was obviously hit with asteroids in the past and it would appear that the earth was flooded...because God was hovering over the waters.

I have heard of the gap theory but didn't realize that was it. Very interesting. Where did you learn about it? Any resource recommendations? Thanks
 
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Shempster

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I have heard of the gap theory but didn't realize that was it. Very interesting. Where did you learn about it? Any resource recommendations? Thanks
Not really. It is only a theory so many have tried to tackle it. I think even Chuck Missler gets into the nitty gritty.

It can get really deep. Some use the book of Enoch which says that fallen angels knew how to manipulate animal dna and actually caused God's animals to kill and consume one another.
Be prepared to find out loads of weird ideas if you decide to go into it.

For me, I find it fascinating but sort of feel like God covered it all up and its not all that pertainant today.
 
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Gospel_van

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Not really. It is only a theory so many have tried to tackle it. I think even Chuck Missler gets into the nitty gritty.

It can get really deep. Some use the book of Enoch which says that fallen angels knew how to manipulate animal dna and actually caused God's animals to kill and consume one another.
Be prepared to find out loads of weird ideas if you decide to go into it.

For me, I find it fascinating but sort of feel like God covered it all up and its not all that pertainant today.
I've heard Missler bring it up but never talk in depth about it. I've read Enoch...it's a roller coaster...
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Your claim is that Micro evolution + time = macro evolution.
This would require animals to add information to the genome? Do you have any examples of this?

You can add more time, but it doesn't mean more changes will happen. Take a crocodile for instance—very little changes have been made compared to the fossilized crocodiles and modern crocodiles. The same can be said about Jelly fish and dozens of other animals.

We probably don't see elephants fossilized near dinosaurs because 1.) these fossilizations are rather rare. 2.) they live in different environments.

Are you a Christian?

Yes I am a Christian. Many Christians accept the findings of science including evolution and the age of the earth, I am one of them. Dinosaurs occupied MANY environments, there were MANY kinds of dinosaurs. The mammals alive when the dinosaurs were around were small. Large mammals didn't come along until the great extinction event that killed off the dinosaurs 65 million years ago.

We have lots of examples of information being added to genomes. It happens every time an insect gains immunity to our insecticides.

Crocodiles are mentioned prominently because they are examples of the EXCEPTION to species changing over time. The RARE exception.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Not really. It is only a theory so many have tried to tackle it. I think even Chuck Missler gets into the nitty gritty.

It can get really deep. Some use the book of Enoch which says that fallen angels knew how to manipulate animal dna and actually caused God's animals to kill and consume one another.
Be prepared to find out loads of weird ideas if you decide to go into it.

For me, I find it fascinating but sort of feel like God covered it all up and its not all that pertainant today.

The book of Enoch does not mention DNA.

God didn't cover up a thing, you can trust the direct message of God about His creation left us in the stars, the rocks, and the genomes.
 
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Shempster

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The book of Enoch does not mention DNA.

God didn't cover up a thing, you can trust the direct message of God about His creation left us in the stars, the rocks, and the genomes.

Correct, but it is an accepted inference when it says that the fallen angels "sinned against the animals".

When I say covered up, I meant physically buried in the dirt. Things like dino fossils and super-ancient structures.
 
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Gospel_van

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Yes I am a Christian. Many Christians accept the findings of science including evolution and the age of the earth, I am one of them. Dinosaurs occupied MANY environments, there were MANY kinds of dinosaurs. The mammals alive when the dinosaurs were around were small. Large mammals didn't come along until the great extinction event that killed off the dinosaurs 65 million years ago.

We have lots of examples of information being added to genomes. It happens every time an insect gains immunity to our insecticides.

Crocodiles are mentioned prominently because they are examples of the EXCEPTION to species changing over time. The RARE exception.
Why would you accept the scientific evidence over Gods word? Sure, we have some evidence that supports the earth being old, but we have plenty that also limits the age of the earth and makes it appear young. What is making you hold on to the old earth idea, which consequently leads you to the evolution idea from common ancestor idea? Which in turn compromises your view of the authenticity of Gods word?

Could you give an example where am insect adds information to a genome. Generally, what happens is genes are manipulated, tuned on or off, but never are more genes added to the genome. I can guarantee you this is the case if you look at each case specifically as never has any information been observed to be added to the genome. It doesn't happen. If you have a specific example I would be happy to look at it.

Crocodiles have a fixed genome just like every other animal. No information can be added—only the manipulation of genes already within the genome.

Have looked at and understood a model from the perspective of the bible being God's infallible word?
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Why would you accept the scientific evidence over Gods word?

It turns out, I believe, that scientific findings teach us how we have been mis-interpreting God's word all this time. It happened with regards to the sun moving across our sky, and it is happening now with regard to the age of the earth and evolution.

Sure, we have some evidence that supports the earth being old, but we have plenty that also limits the age of the earth and makes it appear young.

No we don't. We have attempted rationalizations to support a young earth but in every case they are unscientific, not scientific.

[quot]What is making you hold on to the old earth idea, which consequently leads you to the evolution idea from common ancestor idea? Which in turn compromises your view of the authenticity of Gods word?[/quote]

Evidence. And to me, it seems silly to maintain, against all evidence, the interpretations of the Bible against the findings of science; after all, if we disregard evidence, we have no reason to choose to accept the Bible, having, after all, disregarded evidence.

Could you give an example where am insect adds information to a genome. Generally, what happens is genes are manipulated, tuned on or off, but never are more genes added to the genome.

You never heard of gene doubling?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140930090636.htm

I can guarantee you this is the case if you look at each case specifically as never has any information been observed to be added to the genome. It doesn't happen. If you have a specific example I would be happy to look at it.

CB102: Mutations adding information

Crocodiles have a fixed genome just like every other animal. No information can be added—only the manipulation of genes already within the genome.

Your mantra that "no information can be added" is false, and its only source is your faith, not reality.

Have looked at and understood a model from the perspective of the bible being God's infallible word?

Tell me about the four footed bugs . . .

Lev 11:20-23 All the winged insects that walk on all fours are detestable to you. Yet these you may eat among all the winged insects which walk on all fours: those which have above their feet jointed legs with which to jump on the earth.
These of them you may eat: the locust in its kinds, and the devastating locust in its kinds, and the cricket in its kinds, and the grasshopper in its kinds. But all other winged insects which are four-footed are detestable to you.
NASU

There are no four footed winged creatures on this planet.

Do you decide, then, that the bible is capable of error, or do you change the way you interpret these verses? Of course, you change the way you interpret these verses.

Well, I get the same option to change the way I interpret bible verses that you do, and I am just as true to God's truth as you are when you do that same thing. More true to God's truth, since I accept the direct revelation of God in the stars, the rocks, and the genomes, and you don't.
 
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