2nd Death

[Mike Reynolds]

In 1 Corinthians 15:44, Paul distinguishes between a life animated by the soul (psychikos) and a life animated by the spirit (pneumatikos). That distinction is treated as real, not merely rhetorical.

The question is how far that distinction goes. If soul-based life and spirit-based life are genuinely different modes, what prevents the possibility that one could be lost while the other remains?

That becomes relevant to the language of the “second death.” If it is truly death, something real must be lost. If it is not total nonexistence, then it cannot be the destruction of the whole person.

I propose that what dies is the soul, while the spirit persists. That would preserve both sides: the reality of death, and the continued existence described in judgment.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The soul, with the will within, if it revolves for repentance, then the spirit, the heart should repent and grace further takes effect. Problem being if the heart has become hard, then it takes much grace to make the heart soften, but under the wrong circumstances, grace can be rejected and it makes the heart even harder.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Man doesn’t “have” a soul.

“So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭45‬ ‭

The spirit animates the body and together constitute a soul, creature, living being.

 

[David1701]

Man doesn’t “have” a soul.

“So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭45‬ ‭

The spirit animates the body and together constitute a soul, creature, living being.

The word "soul" has a semantic range (a range of meanings, depending upon the context). It can be used as a synecdoche (a part representing the whole, or the whole representing a part), which, in this case, would be a part representing the whole (examples of this figure of speech would be "fifty head of cattle", or seeing a soldier and saying, "Here comes the army."); but certainly not always.

Here is one of the verses demonstrating that there is a distinction between the soul and spirit of man.

Heb. 4:12 (E.S.V.) For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Man doesn’t “have” a soul.

Wrong. Man has a body, soul and spirit, as Paul clearly said here...

1 Thessalonians 5:23 23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

“So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭45‬ ‭

The spirit animates the body and together constitute a soul, creature, living being.

Do you understand that most words have more than one definition? Yes, a whole person can be called a living soul, but, as Paul taught, a whole person is made up of body, soul and spirit.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Wrong. Man has a body, soul and spirit, as Paul clearly said here...

1 Thessalonians 5:23 23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Do you understand that most words have more than one definition? Yes, a whole person can be called a living soul, but, as Paul taught, a whole person is made up of body, soul and spirit.

Thank you for your reply. I simply see the verse above as stating the same as I stated earlier. I still see the soul as that which constitutes the whole person. Whole spirit, life giving breath of God that that animates the body and which returns to God. Body of flesh which perishes.

These two cannot be separated and there still “be” or “have” a soul. What exactly constitutes the soul? What is Its function within the whole person? What is the soul accountable to God for as a separate entity?

Thanks for taking the time and sharing your thoughts. Look forward to hearing more about your thoughts on the make up of a soul.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

The word "soul" has a semantic range (a range of meanings, depending upon the context). It can be used as a synecdoche (a part representing the whole, or the whole representing a part), which, in this case, would be a part representing the whole (examples of this figure of speech would be "fifty head of cattle", or seeing a soldier and saying, "Here comes the army."); but certainly not always.

Here is one of the verses demonstrating that there is a distinction between the soul and spirit of man.

Heb. 4:12 (E.S.V.) For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Thank you for your reply. I simply see the verse above as stating the same as I stated earlier. I still see the soul as that which constitutes the whole person. Whole spirit, life giving breath of God that that animates the body and which returns to God. Body of flesh which perishes.

These two cannot be separated and there still “be” or “have” a soul. What exactly constitutes the soul? What is Its function within the whole person? What is the soul accountable to God for as a separate entity?

Thanks for taking the time and sharing your thoughts. Look forward to hearing more about your thoughts on the make up of a soul.

 

[David1701]

Thank you for your reply. I simply see the verse above as stating the same as I stated earlier. I still see the soul as that which constitutes the whole person. Whole spirit, life giving breath of God that that animates the body and which returns to God. Body of flesh which perishes.

These two cannot be separated and there still “be” or “have” a soul. What exactly constitutes the soul? What is Its function within the whole person? What is the soul accountable to God for as a separate entity?

Thanks for taking the time and sharing your thoughts. Look forward to hearing more about your thoughts on the make up of a soul.

The distinction between soul and spirit is a tricky one to understand properly (especially since "soul" can be used to represent the whole person, on occasion, as a synecdoche, as I explained previously). I did a Bible study on this, a number of years ago, and came to the conclusion that the soul is the person's habitual thoughts and feelings; whereas, the spirit is his "life-force" (for want of a better expression).

I then tried to find out the biblical distinction between "heart" (not the physical heart), soul and spirit, but it gets very complicated, since there appears to be some overlap. I decided that the question was not important enough for the amount of time I had expended (and I had not come to a firm conclusion).

I would not be completely dogmatic about my conclusion, but it satisfies me. I am open to anyone who knows more about it than I to provide more information.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Thank you for your reply. I simply see the verse above as stating the same as I stated earlier. I still see the soul as that which constitutes the whole person.

Paul referred to the body, soul and spirit as three separate parts of a whole person in 1 Thessalonians 5:23. Can you please address what he said in that verse?

Whole spirit, life giving breath of God that that animates the body and which returns to God. Body of flesh which perishes.

These two cannot be separated and there still “be” or “have” a soul. What exactly constitutes the soul? What is Its function within the whole person? What is the soul accountable to God for as a separate entity?

That's beyond the scope of the point I'm making. Paul said we have a soul, body and spirit so I believe him. Asking me to explain the function of the soul is beyond what I was intending to point out. John said that he saw the souls of physically dead people (Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 20:4), so that also shows that the soul is a separate part of a person from the body. How that works exactly is not easy to explain, but it's what scripture clearly indicates.

Thanks for taking the time and sharing your thoughts. Look forward to hearing more about your thoughts on the make up of a soul.

That will take more time and thought than I have right now to go into specifics about that. If I get the time and the motivation, I might try to delve more into that. But, not right now since that is besides the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

The distinction between soul and spirit is a tricky one to understand properly (especially since "soul" can be used to represent the whole person, on occasion, as a synecdoche, as I explained previously). I did a Bible study on this, a number of years ago, and came to the conclusion that the soul is the person's habitual thoughts and feelings; whereas, the spirit is his "life-force" (for want of a better expression).

I then tried to find out the biblical distinction between "heart" (not the physical heart), soul and spirit, but it gets very complicated, since there appears to be some overlap. I decided that the question was not important enough for the amount of time I had expended (and I had not come to a firm conclusion).

I would not be completely dogmatic about my conclusion, but it satisfies me. I am open to anyone who knows more about it than I to provide more information.

Again, appreciate the informative and humble reply. Interesting thoughts you have shared on the nature/constitution of the soul & spirit. I will certainly consider and reflect on the thoughts you shared.

I am not tied to any position, as you stated, and will adjust my position accordingly if I am persuaded in my heart by God.

Blessings brother …

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Paul referred to the body, soul and spirit as three separate parts of a whole person in 1 Thessalonians 5:23. Can you please address what he said in that verse?

My reply: I simply see what I have already stated … Spirit is life, giving animation to the body. The result is the functioning being/person processing life’s experiences through thoughts, emotions and actions which, as a person, one is held accountable to God for that which was done in the body.

 

[truthuprootsevil]

In 1 Corinthians 15:44, Paul distinguishes between a life animated by the soul (psychikos) and a life animated by the spirit (pneumatikos). That distinction is treated as real, not merely rhetorical.

The question is how far that distinction goes. If soul-based life and spirit-based life are genuinely different modes, what prevents the possibility that one could be lost while the other remains?

That becomes relevant to the language of the “second death.” If it is truly death, something real must be lost. If it is not total nonexistence, then it cannot be the destruction of the whole person.

I propose that what dies is the soul, while the spirit persists. That would preserve both sides: the reality of death, and the continued existence described in judgment.

I believe that the soul and Spirit are intertwined with each other, they are one.

SPIRIT | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary spirit

SOUL Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster https://share.google/gvaTr4RazzKi2Th7A

Ecclesiastics tells us that when a human dies the spirit goes back to God who gave it - isn't that telling us the human spirit/soul continues to exist and the death that occurs is the death of the physical body, which is what God means when he said it is appointed man to die once, he's speaking of the physical body. Jesus tells us fear him who can destroy both Spirit / soul and the body in hell.

The second death as I believe you are indicating is the death of the spirit / soul. It's not these bodies that are going to be judged but the spirits / souls within these bodies. The only difference I would have is that the soul and the spirit are one and they're separate. I believe the spirit/soul will perish, cease to exist, for any who is not granted eternal life.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I simply see what I have already stated … Spirit is life, giving animation to the body. The result is the functioning being/person processing life’s experiences through thoughts, emotions and actions which, as a person, one is held accountable to God for that which was done in the body.

I'm asking you to tell me your understanding of all 3 of the body, soul and spirit in 1 Thessalonians 5:23. Paul mentioned the body, soul and spirit separately, so what is your understanding of all 3 of those? Your response here does not address that. Do you acknowledge that we have a body, a soul and a spirit, as Paul indicated, or not? You said "spirit is life, giving animation to the body". And what about the soul that he also mentioned separately as being part of us in addition to the spirit and body? I'm trying to understand why you would apparently claim that we only consist of spirit and body when that is not what Paul indicated in 1 Thessalonians 5:23.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I believe that the soul and Spirit are intertwined with each other, they are one.

Are you saying that you believe that the soul is the spirit and the spirit is the soul as if they are not a separate spirit and soul? If so, that's not how the soul and spirit are presented in verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12. While Hebrews 4:12 indicates that there is a very close connection between the soul and spirit that only the word of God can divide, that doesn't mean they are one. Otherwise, Hebrews 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23 would not make any sense. It also would not make sense for John to say he saw the souls of physically dead people and that they had consciousness, but he did (Revelation 6:9-11).

SPIRIT | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary spirit

SOUL Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster https://share.google/gvaTr4RazzKi2Th7A

Ecclesiastics tells us that when a human dies the spirit goes back to God who gave it - isn't that telling us the human spirit/soul continues to exist and the death that occurs is the death of the physical body, which is what God means when he said it is appointed man to die once, he's speaking of the physical body. Jesus tells us fear him who can destroy both Spirit / soul and the body in hell.

The second death as I believe you are indicating is the death of the spirit / soul. It's not these bodies that are going to be judged but the spirits / souls within these bodies. The only difference I would have is that the soul and the spirit are one and they're separate. I believe the spirit/soul will perish, cease to exist, for any who is not granted eternal life.

What you're saying is not entirely clear to me, so I'll ask a clarifying question. Do you believe that unbelievers will be completely annihilated at that point when they are cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15)?

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

I'm asking you to tell me your understanding of all 3 of the body, soul and spirit in 1 Thessalonians 5:23. Paul mentioned the body, soul and spirit separately, so what is your understanding of all 3 of those? Your response here does not address that. Do you acknowledge that we have a body, a soul and a spirit, as Paul indicated, or not? You said "spirit is life, giving animation to the body". And what about the soul that he also mentioned separately as being part of us in addition to the spirit and body? I'm trying to understand why you would apparently claim that we only consist of spirit and body when that is not what Paul indicated in 1 Thessalonians 5:23.

I’m really not trying to be obtuse here but I have answered your question above. I don’t see a soul existing apart from the body and spirit as, if you will, a separate entity. So no, I don’t see three separate entities but when spirit and body are paired together, we have what constitutes the ”soul.” So the spirit is life giving, I’m no really sure what else I can add. The body is, well, the vehicle for the spirit. What else do you wish me to say about the body. It’s flesh and blood and inhabits its place in the physical reality. Soul is the person you interact with, on a daily basis as you move through life. Sorry, that’s all I got …

 

[honey badger]

In 1 Corinthians 15:44, Paul distinguishes between a life animated by the soul (psychikos) and a life animated by the spirit (pneumatikos). That distinction is treated as real, not merely rhetorical.

The question is how far that distinction goes. If soul-based life and spirit-based life are genuinely different modes, what prevents the possibility that one could be lost while the other remains?

That becomes relevant to the language of the “second death.” If it is truly death, something real must be lost. If it is not total nonexistence, then it cannot be the destruction of the whole person.

I propose that what dies is the soul, while the spirit persists. That would preserve both sides: the reality of death, and the continued existence described in judgment.

the 1st and 2nd death pictured also as two baptisms both speak to perception ...

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

From collected Bible verses, The Holy Spirit has a mind, will and emotions. Yet He is Spirit and does not have a created soul. The soul functions are in His Spirit. It may be like that with us. Unlike God we have a brain each. That may correctly limit our souls to make an impression in history.

Ashes to ashes, the body can die releasing the human spirit and soul. We never hear of the separation of soul and spirit, only that the word of God divides soul from spirit. Not separating them, discerning the difference.

To be absent from the body from the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[truthuprootsevil]

AAre you

I’m really not trying to be obtuse here but I have answered your question above. I don’t see a soul existing apart from the body and spirit as, if you will, a separate entity. So no, I don’t see three separate entities but when spirit and body are paired together, we have what constitutes the ”soul.” So the spirit is life giving, I’m no really sure what else I can add. The body is, well, the vehicle for the spirit. What else do you wish me to say about the body. It’s flesh and blood and inhabits its place in the physical reality. Soul is the person you interact with, on a daily basis as you move through life. Sorry, that’s all I got …

 

[truthuprootsevil]

Are you saying that you believe that the soul is the spirit and the spirit is the soul as if they are not a separate spirit and soul? If so, that's not how the soul and spirit are presented in verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12. While Hebrews 4:12 indicates that there is a very close connection between the soul and spirit that only the word of God can divide, that doesn't mean they are one. Otherwise, Hebrews 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23 would not make any sense. It also would not make sense for John to say he saw the souls of physically dead people and that they had consciousness, but he did (Revelation 6:9-11).


What you're saying is not entirely clear to me, so I'll ask a clarifying question. Do you believe that unbelievers will be completely annihilated at that point when they are cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15)?

Maybe if you read this you will understand better how the Bible itself uses the words spirit and soul interchangeably.

What Is the Soul? Is It Different from the… | Zondervan Academic What Is the Soul? Is It Different from the Spirit?

If you unbiasely think about what you said concerning Hebrews 4:12 how can something be divided unless it's a WHOLE - whole means combined / one?

You have your own views and it has been a debate for centuries on whether the human is made of three distinct separate parts; body / soul / spirit or two distinct parts the body and the intertwinement of the soul and Spirit. A debate as to whether the spirit and soul are as one.

The soul is the consciousness as well as the spirit.

And I believe in total annihilation --- Matthew 10:28 Jesus said fear him who can DESTROY both body and soul in hell (for those who believe the words of Christ)...... In the book of Revelation 20:14 annihilation is the second death ...... When one reads what is written in Revelation 20:10 with clarity the devil, the beast, and the false prophet (Antichrist) are the only three where it is actually written will be tortured day and night forever and ever.

Biblical Support for Annihilation - Theology in the raw Biblical Support for Annihilation - Theology in the raw

Does the Bible Teach Annihilationism or Eternal Torment? Does the Bible Teach Annihilationism or Eternal Torment?

The evidence for annihilation is much stronger than for eternal torment. The evidence for annihilation is much stronger than for eternal torment.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Maybe if you read this you will understand better how the Bible itself uses the words spirit and soul interchangeably.

What Is the Soul? Is It Different from the… | Zondervan Academic What Is the Soul? Is It Different from the Spirit?

If you unbiasely think about what you said concerning Hebrews 4:12 how can something be divided unless it's a WHOLE - whole means combined / one?

You have your own views and it has been a debate for centuries on whether the human is made of three distinct separate parts; body / soul / spirit or two distinct parts the body and the intertwinement of the soul and Spirit. A debate as to whether the spirit and soul are as one.

The soul is the consciousness as well as the spirit.

Two different entities can be combined into one, so I don't really see your point here. I don't deny that the soul and spirit are somehow very closely joined together, as Hebrews 4:12 indicates. But, that verse and 1 Thessalonians 5:23 refer to the soul and the spirit as separate entitities even if they are joined very closely together to the point where only the word of God can divide them (whatever that means exactly...no one knows for sure).

And I believe in total annihilation --- Matthew 10:28 Jesus said fear him who can DESTROY both body and soul in hell (for those who believe the words of Christ)...... In the book of Revelation 20:14 annihilation is the second death ...... When one reads what is written in Revelation 20:10 with clarity the devil, the beast, and the false prophet (Antichrist) are the only three where it is actually written will be tortured day and night forever and ever.

Why would the lake of fire be a place of eternal torment for the devil, the beast and the false prophet, but not for those whose names are not written in the book of life? Why would humans be cast into a place that results in eternal torment for the devil, and presumably his angels (Matthew 25:41), as well as the beast and false prophet (whatever your understanding of those entities might be) if they are not also going to eternally tormented there? In fact, Revelation 14:9-11 describes eternal torment in the lake of fire in relation to humans very similar to how it is described in relation to Satan, the beast and false prophet in Revelation 20:10. Destruction does not have to result in annihilation. Peter said in 2 Peter 3:6 that the world was destroyed by the flood waters of Noah's day, but it obviously was not annihilated.

The evidence for annihilation is much stronger than for eternal torment. The evidence for annihilation is much stronger than for eternal torment.

I completely disagree with that statement. I see it as being the other way around.