20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[sovereigngrace]

The Biblical evidence of a thousand year reign of Jesus after He Returns, is ln Revelation 20. Plus it is inferred elsewhere many times.
If this Millennium is disputed, as you do, it is up to you to prove that Revelation 20 does not mean what it plainly says.
All I have seen from you, is opinion and a denigration, downgrading and outright rejection of the Words in that chapter.

I almost feel sorry for you, as you probably believed the teachings of a 'reputable' scholar. Now, you are committed to stand by it, despite reading the truths we have shown you.
But it is possible to change, I have, on several prophecy issues, and you will be much better for it.

You swallowed this Dispy doctrine of 7 ages but (not surprisingly) are totally unable to show it in Scripture. That is because it is not there.

What is more, you have zero corroboration for your theory on Revelation 20. That alone is very darning for it. Amil has multiple proof-texts for its viewpoint on Revelation 20.

 

[BobRyan]

If you are confused about what you believe, why would you wonder why I am confused with what you believe?

Are you supposing that what I believe about "the names - God and Magog" --- is the title of this thread?

I have stated that they represent the lost - that has not "change" and the two ways I have stated it are
1. They are lost beings/kingdoms that are among the lost after the 1000 years complete
2. The names are used as "symbols" to represent ALL the lost after the 1000 years are completed.

What has not changed is --

1. ALL the wicked slain at the Rev 19 RAPTURE and appearing of Christ (which begins the 1000 years)
2. ALL the saints raptured to heaven at the point.
3. All the wicked resurrected after the 1000 years are completed.

That has not changed in any of my posts.

You then brought up the "names" - Gog and Magog - as if they were different from the unsaved humanity resurrected after the 1000 years are completed. "At best" a minor detail as to whether they are symbols representing all the lost - or they are the OT historic characters that are simply "among" the unsaved after the 1000 years are completed.

I don't see how this changes anything.

 

[BobRyan]

It is only after Satan's little season is completed that Christ comes and the current earth flees away.

Not true. The holy city and camp of the saints are already on Earth at the time that the wicked are raised to life and available to Satan so he can have surround the city. So also is God here - calling fire down from God and destroying all the wicked.

As you yourself just quoted.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The beloved city - the camp of the saints is already there when the newly resurrected wicked - surround it.

God is already there in the city and when they surround it -- he causes fire to come down and devour them

 

[sovereigngrace]

Are you supposing that what I believe about "the names - God and Magog" --- is the title of this thread?

I have stated that they represent the lost - that has not "change" and the two ways I have stated it are
1. They are lost beings/kingdoms that are among the lost after the 1000 years complete
2. The names are used as "symbols" to represent ALL the lost after the 1000 years are completed.

What has not changed is --

1. ALL the wicked slain at the Rev 19 RAPTURE and appearing of Christ (which begins the 1000 years)
2. ALL the saints raptured to heaven at the point.
3. All the wicked resurrected after the 1000 years are completed.

That has not changed in any of my posts.

You then brought up the "names" - Gog and Magog - as if they were different from the unsaved humanity resurrected after the 1000 years are completed. "At best" a minor detail as to whether they are symbols representing all the lost - or they are the OT historic characters that are simply "among" the unsaved after the 1000 years are completed.

I don't see how this changes anything.

Who are these so-called "lost beings/kingdoms that are among the lost after the 1000 years complete"? Where do they come from? Do they come from Hades or do they survive the second coming of Christ and populate your millennial earth until Satan pops his head up 1000 years later? I though you said all the wicked are destroyed when Jesus comes?

 

[keras]

You swallowed this Dispy doctrine of 7 ages but (not surprisingly) are totally unable to show it in Scripture. That is because it is not there.

What is more, you have zero corroboration for your theory on Revelation 20. That alone is very darning for it. Amil has multiple proof-texts for its viewpoint on Revelation 20.

The 7000 year Plan of God for mankind is inferred in scripture and proved by hindsight; of there having passed nearly 6000 years since Adam.

My theory on Rev 20? Not a theory, but just read and understand plainly stated Words, that say 6 times; there will be 1000 years of benign rule after Jesus Returns.
AMill's multiple proof texts? What rubbish! Your 'proof' consists of virtually removing Rev 20 from the Bible.

You have never provided anything other than your opinion and the AMill doctrine nonsense.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The 7000 year Plan of God for mankind is inferred in scripture and proved by hindsight; of there having passed nearly 6000 years since Adam.

My theory on Rev 20? Not a theory, but just read and understand plainly stated Words, that say 6 times; there will be 1000 years of benign rule after Jesus Returns.
AMill's multiple proof texts? What rubbish! Your 'proof' consists of virtually removing Rev 20 from the Bible.

You have never provided anything other than your opinion and the AMill doctrine nonsense.

You are presenting another unbiblical theory to support another unbiblical theory. Your "6000 years since Adam" theory has been long exposed as a fallacy. We are in 6021 then. Of course, Premils normally adjust their extra-biblical theories every time they fall apart. When AD 500 didn't work out it was AD 1000. Then it was AD 2000. What next? After a while, it’s all gets old. That is why so more and more sound Bible-students are rejecting the date-setting.

 

[BobRyan]

Who are these so-called "lost beings/kingdoms that are among the lost after the 1000 years complete"? Where do they come from?

As stated repeatedly the Rev 20 chapter tells us of the resurrection of the saints - calling it the "first resurrection" and event that starts the 1000 year clock ticking - the millennium.

So then after all the unsaved are killed as Rev 19 says - then that leaves us with a Jer 4 - "desolate Earth" for that 1000 years - as already posted here.

This means that when Rev 20 informs us that "the rest" are resurrected AFTER the 1000 years are completed - it is there that we find the source of a whole lot of newly resurrected unsaved people .. the so-called "lost" as you say.

Stated many times so far.

 

[sovereigngrace]

As stated repeatedly the Rev 20 chapter tells us of the resurrection of the saints - calling it the "first resurrection" and event that starts the 1000 year clock ticking - the millennium.

So then after all the unsaved are killed as Rev 19 says - then that leaves us with a Jer 4 - "desolate Earth" for that 1000 years - as already posted here.

This means that when Rev 20 informs us that "the rest" are resurrected AFTER the 1000 years are completed - it is there that we find the source of a whole lot of newly resurrected unsaved people .. the so-called "lost" as you say.

Stated many times so far.

But, as I have showed you repeatedly, and as you keep avoiding, the second resurrection does not happen until after Satan's little season. That could be years after the millennium finishes for all we know.

Also, are all the "lost beings/kingdoms that are among the lost after the 1000 years complete" the same full company of those who you describe partake in "the 2nd resurrection which brings to life all the lost who have ever lived"?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Not true. The holy city and camp of the saints are already on Earth at the time that the wicked are raised to life and available to Satan so he can have surround the city. So also is God here - calling fire down from God and destroying all the wicked.

As you yourself just quoted.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The beloved city - the camp of the saints is already there when the newly resurrected wicked - surround it.

God is already there in the city and when they surround it -- he causes fire to come down and devour them

Who are the holy city and camp of the saints? At what stage do they come to earth? I thought you believe the saved are resurrected at the second coming and go to heaven, as the earth is then desolate for 1,000 years?

Your writings are extremely contradictory and confusing.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Not true. The holy city and camp of the saints are already on Earth at the time that the wicked are raised to life and available to Satan so he can have surround the city. So also is God here - calling fire down from God and destroying all the wicked.

As you yourself just quoted.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The beloved city - the camp of the saints is already there when the newly resurrected wicked - surround it.

God is already there in the city and when they surround it -- he causes fire to come down and devour them

You're not making any sense here whatsoever. Why do you have the wicked being resurrected and then killed before Revelation 20:11-15 even begins? That makes no sense. They will be resurrected and then immediately will stand before the great white throne.

Having them being resurrected already right when the 1000 years ends and creating chaos on the earth is not at all what is being taught in Revelation 20. The ones who are gathered for battle that number "as the sand of the sea" would be the wicked who are still alive at that time when the thousand years ends. It doesn't say anything about anyone being resurrected immediately after the thousand years ends. There's Satan's little season in between the end of the thousand years and the resurrection of the dead for judgment.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Who are the holy city and camp of the saints? At what stage do they come to earth? I thought you believe the saved are resurrected at the second coming and go to heaven, as the earth is then desolate for 1,000 years?

Your writings are extremely contradictory and confusing.

He's a Seventh Day Adventist and it's SDA teaching that he's promoting. He's not thinking for himself and is just letting his church's teaching dictate what he believes about this.

 

[sovereigngrace]

He's a Seventh Day Adventist and it's SDA teaching that he's promoting. He's not thinking for himself and is just letting his church's teaching dictate what he believes about this.

Really? Ahhh! That explains!

 

[Spiritual Jew]

As stated repeatedly the Rev 20 chapter tells us of the resurrection of the saints - calling it the "first resurrection" and event that starts the 1000 year clock ticking - the millennium.

So then after all the unsaved are killed as Rev 19 says - then that leaves us with a Jer 4 - "desolate Earth" for that 1000 years - as already posted here.

This means that when Rev 20 informs us that "the rest" are resurrected AFTER the 1000 years are completed - it is there that we find the source of a whole lot of newly resurrected unsaved people .. the so-called "lost" as you say.

Stated many times so far.

So, you have them being resurrected and then killed again shortly after that. Do you think they will be resurrected yet again to stand before the great white throne?

How does any of this line up with the rest of scripture? What other scripture, if any, can you point to that would support your interpretation of Revelation 20?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Really? Ahhh! That explains!

Yeah, look at his profile. It says he's SDA. And all he's doing is just sharing what he's been taught. I've seen it before.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Yeah, look at his profile. It says he's SDA. And all he's doing is just sharing what he's been taught. I've seen it before.

I appreciate the heads up.

 

[BobRyan]

So, you have them being resurrected and then killed again shortly after that. Do you think they will be resurrected yet again to stand before the great white throne?

No - I think Rev 20:7-9 is a short summary of the rest of the chapter and what follows simply gives more detail about that summary. Like we have in Gen 1:1 God created heaven and Earth - but then we have Gen 1:3-2:3 giving more detail... following by Gen 2:4-end-of-chapter giving even more detail on the subject of marriage and the subject of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

[sovereigngrace]

No - I think Rev 20:7-9 is a short summary of the rest of the chapter and what follows simply gives more detail about that summary. Like we have in Gen 1:1 God created heaven and Earth - but then we have Gen 1:3-2:3 giving more detail... following by Gen 2:4-end-of-chapter giving even more detail on the subject of marriage and the subject of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

What do you mean? Explain exactly what is repeated?

 

[BobRyan]

How does any of this line up with the rest of scripture? What other scripture, if any, can you point to that would support your interpretation of Revelation 20?

Jer 4 points to the same desolate Earth result as we see in Rev 19 at the end of the "appearing" event.

But no other Bible book mentions the 1000 years specifically no matter what view you take of it.

In John 5 there are two resurrections, in Rev 20 there are those same two resurrections separated by 1000 years.

In 1 Thess 4:13-18 the Rapture takes place - and includes the resurrection of the saints - Rev 20 calls that "the first resurrection".

 

[BobRyan]

What do you mean? Explain exactly what is a repeat?

Rev 20:
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone,

======== more detail about those summary details where all the lost are devoured in fire

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


Matt 10:28
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (fiery hell).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No - I think Rev 20:7-9 is a short summary of the rest of the chapter and what follows simply gives more detail about that summary.

What does that mean? Please explain exactly what you mean by that.

What is mentioned prior to Revelation 20:7-9 is a thousand year time period (which you take to be a literal thousand years) during which Christ reigns with His people and Satan is bound. How exactly does Revelation 20:7-9 summarize that? In Revelation 20:7-9 Satan is doing what he is said to be bound from doing during the thousand years. So, I see no possible way that Revelation 20:7-9 summarizes Revelation 20:1-6.