20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[BobRyan]

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1. Are all the "lost beings/kingdoms that are among the lost after the 1000 years [is] complete" the same full company of those who you describe who partake in "the 2nd resurrection which brings to life all the lost who have ever lived"?

As stated repeatedly in my posts - there are no humans left alive on Earth during the 1000 years as we see in Rev 19 and in Jeremiah 4.

Rev 20 - the second resurrection "Where the rest of the dead" (those not in the "first resurrection") come to life.
vs 5 "the REST of the dead did not come to life UNTIL the 1000 years are completed"
So "all the lost beings that are on Earth" after the 1000 years are completed are only alive on Earth due to one reason... that second resurrection that marks the end of the 1000 years.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

As stated repeatedly in my posts - there are no humans left alive on Earth during the 1000 years as we see in Rev 19 and in Jeremiah 4.

Rev 20 - the second resurrection "Where the rest of the dead" (those not in the "first resurrection") come to life.
vs 5 "the REST of the dead did not come to life UNTIL the 1000 years are completed"
So "all the lost beings that are on Earth" after the 1000 years are completed are only alive on Earth due to one reason... that second resurrection that marks the end of the 1000 years.

That isn't saying they would be resurrected immediately when the thousand years ended. It only indicates that the rest of the dead would come to life some time AFTER the thousand years are completed. Satan's little season clearly follows the thousand years, so they aren't resurrected yet at that point. They are resurrected after Satan's little season to face the judgment.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Rev 20:
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone,

======== more detail about those summary details where all the lost are devoured in fire

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


Matt 10:28
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (fiery hell).

Wrong! Revelation 20:7 shows the shows the destruction of the wicked from the presence of Jesus when He returns. It shows the resulting immediate banishment of Satan to the lake of fire. What happens in Revelation 20:12-15 occurs after the resurrection of the dead, their judgment and then their sentencing to the lake of fire forever.

Satan does not need to stand before the judgment, he is already judged. The wicked have to still come before the judgment. These are two different events here.

 

[BobRyan]

Who are the holy city and camp of the saints? At what stage do they come to earth? I thought you believe the saved are resurrected at the second coming and go to heaven, as the earth is then desolate for 1,000 years

Indeed they are in heaven for the 1000 years - as I point out.

I never claim that the saints remain in heaven AFTER the 1000 years are ended.

scripture says this --
Rev 20:
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give water to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life, without cost. 7 The one who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

We see the same elements mentioned in Rev 21 as in Rev 20 -- Rev 21 is adding details to the Rev 20:7-10 summary and is going beyond that summary

 

[BobRyan]

That isn't saying they would be resurrected immediately when the thousand years ended. It only indicates that the rest of the dead would come to life some time AFTER the thousand years are completed.

The second resurrection marks the end of the 1000 year millennium

It is how you get from a desolate Earth in Rev 19 and Jeremiah 4 - to one populated with unsaved people in vs 7-10 of Rev 20.

That is the only mechanism the chapter gives for solving that problem - and your preference that it should not be so handy as mentioned in the chapter is "noted". You have free will and can reject whatever you wish. I just point to its logical value in the chapter itself for the reader.

 

[BobRyan]

Wrong! Revelation 20:7 shows the shows the destruction of the wicked from the presence of Jesus when He returns.

And is explained in detail in the remaining verses in the chapter showing that after resurrection comes judgment then comes the the lake of fire.

You are inserting resurrection, then destruction by fire, then judgment, then more destruction by fire for the same individuals by not paying attention to the summary-then-detail nature of scripture introduced in Genesis 1.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Indeed they are in heaven for the 1000 years - as I point out.

I never claim that the saints remain in heaven AFTER the 1000 years are ended.

scripture says this --
Rev 20:
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give water to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life, without cost. 7 The one who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

We see the same elements mentioned in Rev 21 as in Rev 20 -- Rev 21 is adding details to the Rev 20:7-10 summary and is going beyond that summary

Revelation 20:7-9 describes things happening right when the thousand years ends and they happen on the earth.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 20:10-15 does not take place on the earth. It says in verse 11 that the earth flees from His presence and can't be found at that point, so it has to be taking place somewhere else than on the earth. So, how do you reconcile your view that Revelation 20:7-9 is speaking of the same event as Revelation 20:10-15 when the two passages don't even take place in the same location?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Indeed they are in heaven for the 1000 years - as I point out.

I never claim that the saints remain in heaven AFTER the 1000 years are ended.

scripture says this --
Rev 20:
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give water to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life, without cost. 7 The one who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

We see the same elements mentioned in Rev 21 as in Rev 20 -- Rev 21 is adding details to the Rev 20:7-10 summary and is going beyond that summary

Whoaaa! You are totally manipulating the text in order to support your faulty theory. There is nowhere in Revelation 20 that shows "the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven." That does not come until after Satan's little season. That occurs at the second coming. That occurs in Revelation 21, not Revelation 20. This supports the Amil paradigm. The end of Revelation 20 shows the coming of Christ on His great white throne and the replacement of the first corrupt earth with the second perfected earth. It sees the redeemed of God (the holy city, new Jerusalem), coming down out of heaven.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Revelation 20:7-9 describes things happening right when the thousand years ends and they happen on the earth.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 20:10-15 does not take place on the earth. It says in verse 11 that the earth flees from His presence and can't be found at that point, so it has to be taking place somewhere else than on the earth. So, how do you reconcile your view that Revelation 20:7-9 is speaking of the same event as Revelation 20:10-15 when the two passages don't even take place in the same location?

In between his millennium and the coming of Christ at the great white throne is Satan's “little season” – something he does not seem to want to recognize.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

And is explained in detail in the remaining verses in the chapter showing that after resurrection comes judgment then comes the the lake of fire.

You are inserting resurrection, then destruction by fire, then judgment, then more destruction by fire for the same individuals by not paying attention to the summary-then-detail nature of scripture introduced in Genesis 1.

How is a description of fire coming down on people on earth the same as a description of people being cast into the lake of fire? Fire coming down from heaven would destroy the wicked physically. Do you think that's it for them then? They get destroyed physically and then cease to exist? That would contradict Revelation 20:10 which indicates that the lake of fire is a place of eternal torment.

Revelation 20:9 has nothing to do with people being sentenced to eternal torment, but rather has to do with people being physically killed by fire. They would need to be resurrected after that to face the judgment and give an account of themselves. Where is there anything in Revelation 20:7-9 that says something about the wicked who number "as the sand of the sea" giving an account of themselves before the throne? It only portrays them as being physically killed and nothing that could be interpreted as them standing before the throne to give an account of themselves.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In between his millennium and the coming of Christ at the great white throne is Satan's “little season” – something he does not seem to want to recognize.

He's acting as if it doesn't exist. His view (which is the SDA view) is truly baffling.

 

[sovereigngrace]

And is explained in detail in the remaining verses in the chapter showing that after resurrection comes judgment then comes the the lake of fire.

You are inserting resurrection, then destruction by fire, then judgment, then more destruction by fire for the same individuals by not paying attention to the summary-then-detail nature of scripture introduced in Genesis 1.

Not so. Revelation 20:7 shows the shows the destruction of the wicked from the presence of Jesus when He returns. It shows the resulting immediate banishment of Satan to the lake of fire. Revelation 20:12-15 relates to the resurrection of the dead, their judgment and then their sentencing to the lake of fire forever.

Satan does not need to stand before the judgment, he is already judged. The wicked have to still come before the judgment. These are two different events here.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Rev 20:7-9 also mentions that same time period. They all point to the events that happen after it is completed as my post pointed out. The 1000 years begins with what the chapter calls "the first resurrection"

You said the above in response to me saying this:

What is mentioned prior to Revelation 20:7-9 is a thousand year time period (which you take to be a literal thousand years)

So, you apparently believe that Revelation 20:7-9 happens during the thousand years based on what you said above, right? How can that be when Revelation 20:7-9 is said to happen after Satan is loosed, but he is bound during the thousand years?

Revelation 20:7-9 can't possibly be referring to the thousand years because he is no longer bound at that time. Please address this.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Indeed they are in heaven for the 1000 years - as I point out.

I never claim that the saints remain in heaven AFTER the 1000 years are ended.

scripture says this --
Rev 20:
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give water to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life, without cost. 7 The one who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

We see the same elements mentioned in Rev 21 as in Rev 20 -- Rev 21 is adding details to the Rev 20:7-10 summary and is going beyond that summary

Why did you ignore the other two questions?

 

[BobRyan]

Why did you ignore the other two questions?

1. I like taking one question at a time to see if people are serious about their post or just fishing for something

2. The answer to the second question is in this post
Today at 6:39 PM #5524

 

[BobRyan]

So, you apparently believe that Revelation 20:7-9 happens during the thousand years

nope. I have repeatedly said it is after the 1000 years are completed - and quoted that numerous times from vs 7.

Each time I say "yes" you like to respond with "apparently you believe the answer is "no" ' - as if that makes sense. Not sure why you keep doing that.

How can that be when Revelation 20:7-9 is said to happen after Satan is loosed,

No doubt the wicked are raised and only AFTER that can Satan have access to a living wicked person to organize them into an army and surround a city with them. Not sure why this is such a difficult detail.

 

[BobRyan]

Revelation 20:7-9 can't possibly be referring to the thousand years because he is no longer bound at that time. Please address this.

Obviously I have never stated any activity going on during the thousand years as we both know.

Satan is no longer bound AFTER the 1000 years are completed
a. the wicked are only resurrected AFTER the 1000 years are completed..
b. And Satan can only marshal the living unsaved into an army to surround a city with them.

This can only happen "AFTER the thousand years are completed" as the chapter says repeatedly.

 

[sovereigngrace]

1. I like taking one question at a time to see if people are serious about their post or just fishing for something

2. The answer to the second question is in this post
Today at 6:39 PM #5524

When does Satan's little season arrive? When does it end? What happens in that season?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Obviously I have never stated any activity going on during the thousand years as we both know.

Satan is no longer bound AFTER the 1000 years are completed
a. the wicked are only resurrected AFTER the 1000 years are completed..
b. And Satan can only marshal the living unsaved into an army to surround a city with them.

This can only happen "AFTER the thousand years are completed" as the chapter says repeatedly.

Oh. So, there are 2 groups of wicked in your theory after all (despite your denials) - one group who have died and are resurrected to populate your millennium and another group of the living unsaved in your millennium? No wonder you refuse to answer my simple questions.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Oh. So, there are 2 groups of wicked in your theory after all (despite your denials) - one group who have died and are resurrected to populate your millennium and another group of the living unsaved in your millennium? No wonder you refuse to answer my simple questions.

Indeed.