20 arguments for the existence of God

[hamashiachagape]

It doesn't matter if you care or not.

 

[hamashiachagape]

I never said the universe brought itself into existence. Infinity is a concept I prefer not to attach to such things as knowledge, especially when analyzing it logically. Not to mention the term also has applicable but different meanings depending on the discipline you use it in. Infinite knowledge only suggests that there is knowledge both from the past and future which we either don't know or cannot know yet. Even if I granted some kind of cosmological necessity to the Big Bang, it doesn't suggest that the initiator of the Big Bang is the "God" you believe in, assuming that there was something like our time and space before the Big Bang

Not the God I believe in. Just a God.

And actually I don't believe in the Big Bang.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Nobody is asking you to care if God exists.

Why even engage me if you don't think the question is something that we should care about? Otherwise it's a moot discussion if neither of us cares and we're just being speculative

 

[hamashiachagape]

Atheism has no more right to attempt to refute my understanding of Theism as it does to attempt to refute Pantheism.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Why even engage me if you don't think the question is something that we should care about? Otherwise it's a moot discussion if neither of us cares and we're just being speculative

It doesn't matter if I care about it. God still exists.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

And then you utilize language and logic to explain that. Remember the special pleading thing I was talkign about earlier?

Experience is not self interpreting.

I never said language and logic were useless, they just aren't adequate to express what is a truth that is in nature at least, significantly beyond expression in language and logic in a way we understand universally.

Experience is interpreted by the subjects, us, however transient our selves our.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

It doesn't matter if I care about it. God still exists.

God only exists as important because you find it something to care about. God's existence as a neutral observer or creator does injustice to Messianic Judaism alongside the Christianity you derive it from.

 

[hamashiachagape]

I never said language and logic were useless, they just aren't adequate to express what is a truth that is in nature at least, significantly beyond expression in language and logic in a way we understand universally.

Experience is interpreted by the subjects, us, however transient our selves our.

Then you shouldn't try to express it.

Correct, experience is interpreted, and does not in and of itself extend beyond ourselves.

 

[hamashiachagape]

God only exists as important because you find it something to care about. God's existence as a neutral observer or creator does injustice to Messianic Judaism alongside the Christianity you derive it from.

Not really. God cares about us.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Atheism has no more right to attempt to refute my understanding of Theism as it does to attempt to refute Pantheism.

Problem with that argument is that there are theologians that basically equate pantheism with atheism because of the basic assumption that pantheism is barely a step beyond atheism in the proposition that "God" is impersonal and thus lacking in what they believe to be a key component of "God"'s character

 

[hamashiachagape]

Its up to you to decide what you want to do about that. That is the Christian position.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Not really. God cares about us.

Then logically you must care about this "God" that you believe in. You can't spout hypotheticals that have no relevance to the discussion especially if you've already concluded that no objections hold water to your thesis of "God"

 

[hamashiachagape]

Problem with that argument is that there are theologians that basically equate pantheism with atheism because of the basic assumption that pantheism is barely a step beyond atheism in the proposition that "God" is impersonal and thus lacking in what they believe to be a key component of "God"'s character

There is certain types of Atheistic Philosophy that could apply to Pantheism. But on the whole, Atheism has no criteria to be able to refute Pantheism. There is no problem with the argument as you're presenting to me.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Its up to you to decide what you want to do about that. That is the Christian position.

You make it sound like I denied free will. And I'm familiar with the Christian position, I've read theologians on and off for nigh on 6 years now.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Then logically you must care about this "God" that you believe in. You can't spout hypotheticals that have no relevance to the discussion especially if you've already concluded that no objections hold water to your thesis of "God"

I do care about God. But its irrelevant to his existence.

 

[hamashiachagape]

You make it sound like I denied free will. And I'm familiar with the Christian position, I've read theologians on and off for nigh on 6 years now.

I don't believe in absolute free will.

 

[hamashiachagape]

As Rene Descartes points out "I think therefore I am." You can't deny yourself. God created you. To be a certain way.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

God's existence as neutral to human interaction only reduces God's significance and meaningfulness to humanity. Otherwise you wouldn't resort to human revelation from God to justify God's alleged covenant with humanity. Don't try to take the focus away from God and put it to the side if it's so important. Make God's existence absolutely necessary in one context, not in all contexts, otherwise you just alienate neophytes

 

[hamashiachagape]

God's existence as neutral to human interaction only reduces God's significance and meaningfulness to humanity. Otherwise you wouldn't resort to human revelation from God to justify God's alleged covenant with humanity. Don't try to take the focus away from God and put it to the side if it's so important. Make God's existence absolutely necessary in one context, not in all contexts, otherwise you just alienate neophytes

This argument serves to enhance the Christian position. But who says God has to be believed in to exist?

 

[ToHoldNothing]

As Rene Descartes points out "I think therefore I am." You can't deny yourself. God created you. To be a certain way.

I don't deny myself, I only deny that I am a permanent entity in any sense. I also deny I was created, since I was generated, not pulled out of nothing. And I am not hard wired beyond basic biological facilities, like sexual orientation and such things. I have believed in many things, evidently I am not hard wired to believe just in God, since at best I believe in God as a concept, not as reality.