20 arguments for the existence of God

[ToHoldNothing]

This argument serves to enhance the Christian position. But who says God has to be believed in to exist?

I never said it did. I just reflected that you're making God seem awfully distant if it's just something that exists regardless of our relation to it.

 

[hamashiachagape]

I don't deny myself, I only deny that I am a permanent entity in any sense. I also deny I was created, since I was generated, not pulled out of nothing. And I am not hard wired beyond basic biological facilities, like sexual orientation and such things. I have believed in many things, evidently I am not hard wired to believe just in God, since at best I believe in God as a concept, not as reality.

That..would pretty m uch be the same thing.

How did this generation come about? The processes that God utilized.

And categories of the mind (God as concept in your case) apply to reality, otherwise your position is unstateable.

 

[hamashiachagape]

I never said it did. I just reflected that you're making God seem awfully distant if it's just something that exists regardless of our relation to it.

Nope, just saying God need not be near to humankind based off of the position of Theism. Although for other reasons, some as you're declaring, I believe it more logical to believe God cares about his universe.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Then you shouldn't try to express it.

Correct, experience is interpreted, and does not in and of itself extend beyond ourselves.

I should try to express it if I believe you are mistaken in your mindset. The fact that it is not always going to work is not the issue at hand except with someone who tries to boil everything down to formulas, which the world only works on at the scientific/philosophical level, not at the level of existential/experiential/psychological humanity.

Experience is communicated, however imperfectly, to others, so technically it does extend beyond ourselves in a sense. Otherwise we'd be completely isolated beings.

 

[hamashiachagape]

I should try to express it if I believe you are mistaken in your mindset. The fact that it is not always going to work is not the issue at hand except with someone who tries to boil everything down to formulas, which the world only works on at the scientific/philosophical level, not at the level of existential/experiential/psychological humanity.

Experience is communicated, however imperfectly, to others, so technically it does extend beyond ourselves in a sense. Otherwise we'd be completely isolated beings.

Then your position is not beyond logic.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Nope, just saying God need not be near to humankind based off of the position of Theism. Although for other reasons, some as you're declaring, I believe it more logical to believe God cares about his universe.

Only because you already assume you have "God" tacked down, when it's more evident by a quick survey of various believers in God that the term is as fluid and dynamic as our world is, constant flux

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Then your position is not beyond logic.

Never said it was. You keep putting these words in my mouth, I'm not going to be able to say anything beyond what you think I say.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Only because you already assume you have "God" tacked down, when it's more evident by a quick survey of various believers in God that the term is as fluid and dynamic as our world is, constant flux

No, I don't have God entirely tacked down. I know what God has told me about him. He has expressed this in a manner that humans can understand to humans, everything we need to know about God. That is what I believe. I also know God is the absolute truth as that is the only way knowledge could exist. Nobody is claiming that they have the totaly understanding of God, at least not the rational people.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Never said it was. You keep putting these words in my mouth, I'm not going to be able to say anything beyond what you think I say.

Your position is then self contradictory.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

That..would pretty m uch be the same thing.

How did this generation come about? The processes that God utilized.

And categories of the mind (God as concept in your case) apply to reality, otherwise your position is unstateable.

Generation is a process that has no knowable beginning, what is more important is understanding it as it is, not its absolute origins.

Categories of the mind apply theoretically when they are speaking about theoretical/philosophical/metaphysical entities that we have not observed or even made an attempt to systematize. Therefore, the application to reality is sparse at best.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Generation is a process that has no knowable beginning, what is more important is understanding it as it is, not its absolute origins.

Categories of the mind apply theoretically when they are speaking about theoretical/philosophical/metaphysical entities that we have not observed or even made an attempt to systematize. Therefore, the application to reality is sparse at best.

Agnosticism is self refuting.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Your position is then self contradictory.

Not really. I didn't say what you said I said, therefore the contradiction is a matter of your mistaken interpretation. I never claimed absolute superiority to your position, so I didn't say I was beyond logic or words except as our language barriers of sorts prevented perfectly accurate communication.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Not really. I didn't say what you said I said, therefore the contradiction is a matter of your mistaken interpretation. I never claimed absolute superiority to your position, so I didn't say I was beyond logic or words except as our language barriers of sorts prevented perfectly accurate communication.

You are arguing for satori in the same exact way.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Agnosticism is self refuting.

You still have failed to explain how, instead just asserting these things as if they're self evident, which they're not. We can all see that 2+2 equals 4, even if you're blind, deaf and dumb.

 

[hamashiachagape]

You still have failed to explain how, instead just asserting these things as if they're self evident, which they're not. We can all see that 2+2 equals 4, even if you're blind, deaf and dumb.

To state that you know that something is unknowable, one would have to know something of this known subject (i.e. it is not unknowable to your understanding)

 

[ToHoldNothing]

You are arguing for satori in the same exact way.

Satori is not the same thing categorically as being saved by God's Holy Spirit. In fact the distinction of salvation vs. liberation is an important point that seems to not come across very well in Dharmic/Abrahamic dialogues.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Satori is not the same thing categorically as being saved by God's Holy Spirit. In fact the distinction of salvation vs. liberation is an important point that seems to not come across very well in Dharmic/Abrahamic dialogues.

It still makes no sense ona logical scale. You would have done better to go along with D.T. Suzuki on this one.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

To state that you know that something is unknowable, one would have to know something of this known subject (i.e. it is not unknowable to your understanding)

I don't know God is unknowable, it merely is the general consensus that with conflicting definitions and explanations, God is a word people use that doesn't have a strict definition apart from whatever authority that person takes as effective upon their minds when constructing the idea. I can know God in the theoretical/hypothetical or more appropriately conceptual sense, but that's practically as far as any genuine experience of mine has gone.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

It still makes no sense ona logical scale. You would have done better to go along with D.T. Suzuki on this one.

Suzuki and I agree on this: that satori is not something you can genuinely explain on a logical or rational basis, since at best it can be communicated as a vague experience, and not something that can be pinned down and studied like your bible.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

No, I don't have God entirely tacked down. I know what God has told me about him. He has expressed this in a manner that humans can understand to humans, everything we need to know about God. That is what I believe. I also know God is the absolute truth as that is the only way knowledge could exist. Nobody is claiming that they have the totaly understanding of God, at least not the rational people.

If God is the absolute truth and being then God could not possibly communicate in a way that every human would agree upon since it would be communicating in a vague and mystic sense. Not to mention if God can communicate with humans, it would appear to be less than perfect, since God could not theologically speaking associate with sin, and if humans are sinful, how can God associate or communicate with humans at all?

Knowledge existing in and of itself is not irrational except as you reach and grasp for ultimate meaning in things outside yourself first instead of first looking inward.