2 thess 2:3 "Falling Away"? is it Blasphemy

[Douggg]

Of course, It is SO EASY and quite tempting to read of these former territories of Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, Gomer, and Togarman and simply decide that God’s Word is more literal than spiritual. Sorry, you do need to have a spiritual understanding about these nations and what they wear and armed with. It is not what you think they are!

Israel and Iran are not currently at odds with each other in middle east right now?

 

[TribulationSigns]

I have responded to posts you have made full of a multitude of questions and statements, with 15 posts in the last day alone.

Now, you go off on a splurge of random questions - and the response to some of which take very long extended explanations. And want to claim I am not answering questions? Anyone can machine gun a hundred questions, TS.

Really? I did not ask a hundred questions. I ask you questions to see what is your biblical understanding of the context related to the woman.

1.) What does the heaven represents if woman did not float in outer space?

2.) What does the sun, moon, and stars reprsent, if woman did not literally wore them?

3.) Why was the red dragon appears in heaven?

4.) What does seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads represents?

5.) Why did Satan drw third part of stars of heaven? And cast them to earth?

6.) How will dragon devour woman's child? Born in heaven?​

The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. Not the church. Jesus was not born to the church. The church did not exist at that time.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Ahem...

So are you saying that the woman in the whole chapter of Revelation 12 is strictly national Israel? If so, then that child was not born for you? Is He not your mighty God? Is He not your counselor? Is He not your Everlasting Father? Is He not your prince of Peace? Is it just because you believe this child (Christ) belong to Isarel because it was national Isarel that he was born from. How wrong you are. No, He was born of woman, the congregation of Israel, whom he SAVED!

Again, the woman in this chapter symbolizes the Congregation of God (Covenant Israel). Israel of God representing ALL Elect from Old and New Testament whom God is their Everlasting Father! This woman in Heaven symbolizes the congregation of the Kingdom of Heaven! She is whom Old Testament Israel was a representative at the time of Christ's birth but after the cross, her representation was changed to the Church that fled to the world (signifies wilderness where Gentiles are).

What you fail to understand that the woman transcends time with national Israel representing her in the Old Testament until the Cross and the Church representing her in the New Testament. Didn't the salvation come when Church was established after the resurrection?

Revelation 12:10
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.​

Christ went to the Cross and had cast Satan out of Congregation of Israel (which the kingdom of heaven represents) and bind him so that he could not frustrate the building of the Church where God has sent to the world. This kingdom of God has established through the church where salvation has indeed come to us! Selah! It has been since Pentecost! You got timing and Israel all wrong.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Israel and Iran are not currently at odds with each other in middle east right now?

Maybe you should stop reading Jerusalem Post and start reading the Bible where you will find God's interpretation for his prophecies.

 

[Douggg]

So are you saying that the woman in the whole chapter of Revelation 12 is strictly national Israel? If so, then that child was not born for you?

"national Israel" "covenant Israel". These are term you come up with. The woman is Israel. The text in Isaiah 9:6 says a "unto" us - not "for" us. So your question is not in concert with what the text says.

 

[Douggg]

1.) What does the heaven represents if woman did not float in outer space?

The place where the sun, moon, and stars are located in the visual metaphor - and backdrop of the vision. Go outside, look up into the sky in the day and night. Where the sun, moon, and stars are - that is heaven.

In verses 1 and 2 and 3, heaven meant the third heaven, where John was, when he was presented Revelation.

2.) What does the sun, moon, and stars reprsent, if woman did not literally wore them?

Individually, in Joseph's original dream - the moon and sun, Joseph's father and mother, and the eleven stars - his eleven brothers.

Genesis 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

In Revelation 12, the woman is Israel; the sun, imo, the word of God ; the twelve stars - the twelve tribes making up Israel . The moon under her feet - time.

3.) Why was the red dragon appears in heaven?

To keep the messiah from growing up and taking away his (Satan's) dominion over the earth. And replacing it with the Kingdom of God.

4.) What does seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads represents?

The ten horns - ten end times concurrently reigning kings of the Roman Empire.
In actual terms - the final form of the EU.

The seven heads - seven sequential kings of one family of rulers of the Roman Empire.

The sevens crowns on the heads of the seven heads (in Revelation 12) - indicates that with the seven years in Revelation 12, 12:6 plus 12:14, king seven has come to power. The little horn ruler of the EU in its final form.

The ten horns do not have their crowns (in Revelation 12) because the person is not yet the beast. That does not happen until Revelation 13, with 42 months left in the 7 years. The ten horns have their crowns in that chapter.

5.) Why did Satan drw third part of stars of heaven? And cast them to earth?

Satan convinced a third of the angels to rebel, and to join his side. And marshaled his resources to have dominion over the earth. Prince of persia, prince of greece in Daniel 10, for example.

6.) How will dragon devour woman's child? Born in heaven?

In the context of Revelation 12, convinced herod to kill all of the first born under the age of 2. Then later, tried to convince Jesus to kill himself, in the temptation in the wilderness. Then convinced the religious leaders to plot to have Jesus put to death.

 

[Douggg]

Didn't the salvation come when Church was established after the resurrection?

Revelation 12:10
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Revelation 12:6, the first 1260 days of the 7 years will take place.

Then, the seventh trumpet sounds in Revelation 11 signaling the taking away of the kingdoms of this world from the dominion of Satan and his angels' invisible kingdom of mystical Babylon the Great.

The war in heaven then will take place, Revelation 12:7-9, the beginning to dismantle Satan and his angels' kingdom. The levels to his kingdom - the second heaven, the first heaven, earth.

Babylon the Great has fallen! Has fallen!. Satan and his angels cast down to earth with a time, times, half time left to their crippled kingdom. The Kingdom of God is taking over.

Revelation 12:11, Now is come salvation - to the Jews, Israel, the woman. They will have received Jesus as their savior.

The Kingdom of God and the power of his Christ - "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

"for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night"

Satan, up to that point, will have accused the Jews day and night of their rejection of Christ. Like some in this forum and some branches of religion tend to do.

 

[The Times]

God did tell us when our rapture will be. At the Last Trump.

That is correct!
Jesus will come as a brilliant flash of light, when the first earth and the first heaven dissolve from his presence and he will blow the seventh Trumpet and to declare "Time no longer".

 

[Douggg]

That is correct!
Jesus will come as a brilliant flash of light, when the first earth and the first heaven dissolve from his presence and he will blow the seventh Trumpet and to declare "Time no longer".

How is Acts 1:11 fulfilled then?

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

[The Times]

This woman in Heaven symbolizes the congregation of the Kingdom of Heaven! She is whom Old Testament Israel was a representative at the time of Christ's birth but after the cross, her representation was changed to the Church that fled to the world (signifies wilderness where Gentiles are).

Those in Heaven who have overcome and sing the blues so to speak are two groups of people, that is those that sing the song of Moses (Old Covenant Israel) and those that sing the song of the lamb of God (New Covenant Heavenly Israel). Zechariah 14 portrays this mountainess congregation as partitioned into two...

In that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea (Old Covenant Israel), and half of them toward the latter sea (New Covenant Israel):
There shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains (Jesus Christ presence); for the valley (Jesus Christ) of the mountains (Congregations of the redeemed Old and New) shall reach unto Azal (Eternity in Persian language):

Jesus is the Valley, whose presence shall reach onto eternity.

The woman is the Church, just like the raped women represent the denominations of the New Covenant mentioned in Zechariah 14:2.

The flood that the red dragon spewed from his mouth, within the 1st century context, is the flood of people, like Saul of Tarsus, who tried to prevent the Child (Gospel) from being spread to the Gentile nations. The Woman in the singular (1st century) context was chased from city to city to stop the Child (gospel) from being born (spread). God opened new opportunities for the woman and gave her wings to fly to spread the good news (gospel).

 

[The Times]

How is Acts 1:11 fulfilled then?

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

It doesn't say, exactly how he disappeared from their presence.

A cloud could just mean that their visibility was obscured and they could not see beyond the Veil that took him away from their presence.

It could very well be that he dissipated in a vapourous cloud or mist, like a vanishing act, where the vapour or mist then ascended or floated upwards, but Jesus was not in the cloud/mist.

This is where the statement, "a cloud received him out of their sight" is highly suggestive of a vanishing act beyond the Veil, that is a vanishing from the temporal natural realm to the third Heaven (higher dimensional realm).

It doesn't say that humanity will be alive on the earth or that the earth is habitable after Jesus returns. It merely informs the Apostles that he shall come in LIKE manner as you have seen him go into the higher dimensional realm (3rd Heaven).

Questions that beg answering is....

What is "in LIKE manner"?

Where did Jesus go to?

Like manner to the vanishing act, is a re-appearing act, which is sudden, whereby the process itself is not understood. A twinkling of an eye act of here you see him, now you don't.

Jesus went to the 3rd Heaven, not space, but a higher dimensional realm, His Father's house of many rooms/ dimensions.

So when Jesus returns, the 1st earth and the 1st heaven will dissipate/disappear from his presence, which highly suggests that Christ's brlliant coming will actually bring to an end the 1st Earth and the 1st Heaven and with it the Adam dirt man.

The remaining Elect will be translated in a twinkling of an eye (the vanishing act), and their souls will instantaneously shed their dirt bodies (old clothing) and be clothed with their heavenly bodies, without tasting biological death, though their earthly bodies/cloths, would have also been consumed by Christ's brilliant coming.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not true , if you are born of God you can't sin /blasphemy HS

There are a few examples that suggest a believer can fall from grace. Jesus said if you remain in me I will remain in you also the parable of the vine. People can be cut off from the vine.

 

[Douggg]

It doesn't say, exactly how he disappeared from their presence.

A cloud could just mean that their visibility was obscured and they could not see beyond the Vail that took him away from their presence.

It could very well be that he dissipated in a vapourous cloud or mist, like a vanishing act, where the vapour or mist then ascended or floated upwards, but Jesus was not in the cloud/mist.

This is where the statement, "a cloud received him out of their sight" is highly suggestive of a vanishing act beyond the Vail, that is a vanishing from the temporal natural realm to the third Heaven (higher dimensional realm).

It doesn't say that humanity will be alive on the earth or that the earth is habitable after Jesus returns. It merely informs the Apostles that he shall come in LIKE manner as you have seen him go into the higher dimensional realm (3rd Heaven).

Questions that beg answering is....

What is "in LIKE manner"?

Where did Jesus go to?

Like manner to the vanishing act, is a re-appearing act, which is sudden, whereby the process itself is not understood. A twinkling of an eye act of here you see him, now you don't.

Jesus went to the 3rd Heaven, not space, but a higher dimensional realm, His Father's house of many rooms/ dimensions.

So when Jesus returns, the 1st earth and the 1st heaven will dissipate/disappear from his presence, which highly suggests that Christ's brlliant coming will actually bring to an end the 1st Earth and the 1st Heaven and with it the Adam dirt man.

The remaining Elect will be translated in a twinkling of an eye (the vanishing act), and their souls will instantaneously shed their dirt bodies (old clothing) and be clothed with their heavenly bodies, without tasting biological death, though their earthly bodies/cloths, would have also been consumed by Christ's brilliant coming.

Jesus left the disciples from the Mt. of Olives. In Zechariah 14, he returns to earth at the Mt of Olives.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This present earth is still going to be here, a thousand years after Jesus returns.

 

[Chinchilla]

There are a few examples that suggest a believer can fall from grace. Jesus said if you remain in me I will remain in you also the parable of the vine. People can be cut off from the vine.

Wrong dispensation we are not under Gospel of Kingdom but 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
If you preach different then you are still cursed Galatians 1:8-9

If you do not believe in dispensations then you should build a boat like Noah and test your faith sacrificing your son like Abraham so you can be accounter righteous .

Ephesians 3:2

 

[The Times]

Jesus left the disciples from the Mt. of Olives. In Zechariah 14, he returns to earth at the Mt of Olives.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This present earth is still going to be here, a thousand years after Jesus returns.

You really have not understood my reply to you, in post #150. If you had understood my post, you would have addressed it, rather than jump to another book in an ad hoc manner.

I would like to ask you, why are you not able or willing to address my reply to you in post #150?

You cited Acts 1:11 in your post #148 and I gave you a reply. Do you have a valid reason to refute what I have explained in post #150?

Please stick with Acts 1:11.

 

[The Times]

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

Let us now look at another book, the book of Revelation of Jesus Christ.

How many people, across the last 2000 years are accused of piercing Jesus?

Have many of them have long expired?

How could all the dead/expired humans see, with their natural eyes Christ's sudden appearing act from the 3rd Heaven (clouds) ?

How could all the wicked deceased, who pieced him and who are not raised, see him with their natural eyes?

You are missing alot exegetically, do you agree?

 

[Douggg]

Let us now look at another book, the book of Revelation of Jesus Christ.

How many people, across the last 2000 years are accused of piercing Jesus?

Have many of them have long expired?

How could all the dead/expired humans see, with their natural eyes Christ's sudden appearing act from the 3rd Heaven (clouds) ?

How could all the wicked deceased, who pieced him and who are not raised, see him with their natural eyes?

You are missing alot exegetically, do you agree?

The Jews, Jerusalem, were responsible for choosing Barabbas instead of Jesus. So they are partly responsible for him being pierced. The Romans, the Roman Empire, are the ones who pierced his side. Both Jews, Jerusalem, and Romans of the end time Roman Empire, the EU, the kingdom of the beast will be present when Jesus returns.

It is talking about people from the original participants of the crucifixion. Obviously, not the exact same persons.

 

[Douggg]

You really have not understood my reply to you, in post #150. If you had understood my post, you would have addressed it, rather than jump to another book in an ad hoc manner.

I would like to ask you, why are you not able or willing to address my reply to you in post #150?

You cited Acts 1:11 in your post #148 and I gave you a reply. Do you have a valid reason to refute what I have explained in post #150?

Please stick with Acts 1:11.

You asked...
What is "in LIKE manner"?

Where did Jesus go to?

The like manner is surrounded by clouds - descending from heaven. Heaven is where he went.

Revelation 1:17 says at his coming back to earth, it is with clouds and is straight forward - so that is an appropriate answer.

When Jesus disappeared from the disciples sight in Acts 1, viewed from the heaven side, he arrived in the clouds of heaven in Daniel 7:13.

 

[The Times]

The Jews, Jerusalem, were responsible for choosing Barabbas instead of Jesus. So they are partly responsible for him being pierced. The Romans, the Roman Empire, are the ones who pierced his side. Both Jews, Jerusalem, and Romans of the end time Roman Empire, the EU, the kingdom of the beast will be present when Jesus returns.

It is talking about people from the original participants of the crucifixion. Obviously, not the exact same persons.

Really?
So all does not mean all, when you consider 2000 years?

 

[The Times]

You asked...
What is "in LIKE manner"?

Where did Jesus go to?

The like manner is surrounded by clouds - descending from heaven. Heaven is where he went.

Revelation 1:17 says at his coming back to earth, it is with clouds and is straight forward - so that is an appropriate answer.

When Jesus disappeared from the disciples sight in Acts 1, viewed from the heaven side, he arrived in the clouds of heaven in Daniel 7:13.

Are you saying that the natural clouds took Jesus and made him disappear, like a balloon flying beyond visual range?

Your jumping from Acts to Revelation and from Revelation to Daniel, may I ask why?

 

[Douggg]

Your jumping from Acts to Revelation and from Revelation to Daniel, may I ask why?

Because those three passages are tied together by Jesus departing from earth at the Mt. of Olives and going to heaven; and Jesus arriving in heaven; and Jesus returning to earth at the Mt. of Olives.

Are you saying that the natural clouds took Jesus and made him disappear, like a balloon flying beyond visual range?

Jesus ascended into a cloud and was gone from the earth. Jesus arrived in heaven upon the clouds of heaven. I am not making an analysis of what all was involved in between, because there is no information given.

You has stated that...Jesus will come as a brilliant flash of light, when the first earth and the first heaven dissolve from his presence and he will blow the seventh Trumpet and to declare "Time no longer".

Which I used the text of the bible to show what you stated is incorrect.