2 thess 2:3 "Falling Away"? is it Blasphemy

The Times

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@Douggg

Job 22:13-14
13
Yet you say, ‘What does God know? Does he judge through such darkness?

14Thick clouds veil him, so he does not see us as he goes about in the vaulted heavens.

Go back to my post #150 link below and please do read....

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-is-it-blasphemy.8072485/page-8#post-72934177

Leviticus 16:2
And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the veil before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.

So how could a natural cloud be within the Holy of Holies, in the Temple itself?

Are not natural clouds outside and are they not veiled, but can easily be seen in the open air?

Are not the vaulted heavens, the 3rd Heaven where God dwells?
 
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Douggg

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Please answer me, why don't you have a valid and succinct reply to my post #172.
2 Thessalonains 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

brightness of his coming - is a not a brilliant "flash" of light as you are claiming.

You are inventing, by misusing Matthew 24:27 as part of your support rationale.

Matthew 24:27 contains a metaphor, as to how evident it will be of Jesus's return.

Jesus used the metaphor of lightning as part of his warning in the previous verses to not go chasing after rumors that some will say that he is in the desert or some other place..

Matthew 24:27
For as the lightning flashes in the east and shines to the west, so it will be when the Son of Man comes.

Then you quoted this verse.... from the NIV....because it contained the word flashed.

The problem is the NIV is a dynamic equivalent translation - meaning it is not as accurate as a word for word translation as the KJV is. Notice the substantial difference.

kjv Acts 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me

The NIV quote you made....
About noon as I was approaching Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me.

"flashed" is some NIV dynamic equivalent words. So you don't have a basis.

Also, them in Revelation 6, see Jesus in heaven before the throne of God, when the sixth seal takes place. And leads to them to assembling their armies in Revelation 16:16 to make war on Jesus to stop him from executing judgement on them. So it is not like a flash of light; the world will know that he is coming at that point.

So, what you need to do is reconcile "whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" with what it says in Revelation 19....

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


It is not going to be a flash like you are saying - as you have misinterpreted Matthew 24:27 and the version you are using for Acts 22:6 is flawed.

Consider Jesus will speak the destruction of the armies gathered to make war on him (metaphorically the sword in his mouth in Revelation 19, verse 15) and projecting from his eyes, which are described as a flame of fire, a bright focused beam of light onto the beast and and false prophet - which beams them into the lake of fire, a portal opening, then closing - as a possibility, we don't have enough information given to know for certain.

Also, in similitude, Jesus melting away the facade of the statue image of the beast - incarnated by Satan - that will be worshiped - bringing it to ashes, exposing Satan for everyone present to see, fulling Ezekiel 28:

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
 
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Douggg

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The cloud in scripture symbolizes God's Glory. I did not say that. God Did.
In those specific verses - the cloud was an indicator, above the tabernacle, that God had entered the tabernacle, and His presence by his Glory, a brilliant light shining forth from Him out of the tabernacle.

The cloud above the tabernacle was not the Glory, but an indicator.
 
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Douggg

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@Douggg

Job 22:13-14
13
Yet you say, ‘What does God know? Does he judge through such darkness?

14Thick clouds veil him, so he does not see us as he goes about in the vaulted heavens.

Go back to my post #150 link below and please do read....

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-is-it-blasphemy.8072485/page-8#post-72934177

Leviticus 16:2
And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the veil before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.

So how could a natural cloud be within the Holy of Holies, in the Temple itself?

Are not natural clouds outside and are they not veiled, but can easily be seen in the open air?

Are not the vaulted heavens, the 3rd Heaven where God dwells?
Of course it is not a natural cloud in that particular case because God specifically stated He will appear in the cloud.

The problem with your thinking is to apply that specific case everywhere a cloud is stated. It is much like the SDA does in their thinking that everytime "day" is mentioned in bible prophecy it means year - because of on one occasion when day actually did represent a year, when Ezekiel laid on his side, Ezekiel 4:4. So they think day means year everywhere in bible prophecy.

cloud means cloud - unless otherwise stated in the text.
 
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Hiscosmicgoldfish3

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2 thess 2:3 KJV: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Tell me your thoughts

falling away can be the drift into atheism, agnosticism, neo-pagan - as in the UK. Might happen in the US if there is enough time remaining.
 
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BNR32FAN

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If your going to dodge the scriptures I posted why not just not reply at all instead of posting nonsense? Every one of those quotes from the Bible are pertaining to believers who can lose salvation.
 
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Chinchilla

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If your going to dodge the scriptures I posted why not just not reply at all instead of posting nonsense? Every one of those quotes from the Bible are pertaining to believers who can lose salvation.

I can give you twice as much on not being able to lose salvation but you would obviously not take them , however there are no contradictions in Bible so if you don't set your bad presuppositions straight there is no point in arguing further .

How long does eternal life last ?
 
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BNR32FAN

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I can give you twice as much on not being able to lose salvation but you would obviously not take them , however there are no contradictions in Bible so if you don't set your bad presuppositions straight there is no point in arguing further .

How long does eternal life last ?

Who on earth has received eternal life yet? That doesn’t happen until a person dies.
 
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Chinchilla

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Who on earth has received eternal life yet? That doesn’t happen until a person dies.

Not Scriptural

John 6:47
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”

King James Version (KJV)

Peresent tense - has everlasting life . See you can't answer because you don't know what everlasting life even is .
 
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Douggg

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Who on earth has received eternal life yet? That doesn’t happen until a person dies.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
 
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Douggg

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I can give you twice as much on not being able to lose salvation but you would obviously not take them , however there are no contradictions in Bible so if you don't set your bad presuppositions straight there is no point in arguing further .

How long does eternal life last ?
I don't know if this is talking about the difficulty of it - if someone were say someone like a pastor say left Christianity to become a muslim - like Yusuf Estes on You Tube - if they should decide to return to Christianity - or if it is an actual impossibility for the person to do so.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

______________________________________________________________

 
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Chinchilla

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I don't know if this is talking about the difficulty of it - if someone were say someone like a pastor say left Christianity to become a muslim - like Yusuf Estes on You Tube - if they should decide to return to Christianity - or if it is an actual impossibility for the person to do so.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

______________________________________________________________


Why do you assume that if somebody is called Pastor that he must be born again aswell ?1 John 2:19
 
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Douggg

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Why do you assume that if somebody is called Pastor that he must be born again aswell ?1 John 2:19
Well, I don't know for certain in every case, but it is very likely. I was just trying to point to an example, regarding what Paul was speaking of. Yusuf Estes came to mind. I could be completely wrong in his particular case. Maybe you should listen to how he became a muslim testimony to decide for yourself.

If them, Paul was speaking about were partakers of the Holy Ghost - does that not indicate to you that they were born again?

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
 
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Dan the deacon

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Well, I don't know for certain in every case, but it is very likely. I was just trying to point to an example, regarding what Paul was speaking of. Yusuf Estes came to mind. I could be completely wrong in his particular case. Maybe you should listen to how he became a muslim testimony to decide for yourself.

If them, Paul was speaking about were partakers of the Holy Ghost - does that not indicate to you that they were born again?

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
And even after reading the scriptures some would rather believe the poor teaching they've been taught rather than believe God's inspired Word.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Not Scriptural

John 6:47
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”

King James Version (KJV)

Peresent tense - has everlasting life . See you can't answer because you don't know what everlasting life even is .

Believing it just the beginning of salvation.

“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless? Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:19-23‬
 
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Chinchilla

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Believing it just the beginning of salvation.

“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless? Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:19-23‬

Yea Exactly , Abraham believed once in resurrection of Isaac and was counter him as righteous for rest of his life right .
 
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Davy

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2 thess 2:3 KJV: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


2 thess 2:3 points out that a "falling away" will happen before the coming of the Lord.
In Greek it means Apostasia or Apostacy/Apostate.
The problem is the only way you can truly fall from Christianity is the blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
(matt 12:31-32, mark 3:28-30, luke 12:8-10)

I'm wondering is the falling away happening now because so many people are speaking against the Holy Spirit via the blasphemy challenge and twitter.

http://master-elaine.blogspot.com/2018/06/has-falling-away-begun-blasphemous.html<-- link here

The link above shows the blasphemous tweets.

Also the reason why taking the mark, name, or number (revelation 13:16-18) is unforgivable is because in 2 thess 2:4 he(anti-christ) will exalt himself above all that is worshiped and that included the Holy Spirit which is blasphemy and unforgivable.
So by default all that worshiped the anti-christ blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-blasphemy-challenge-and-the-mark-of-the-beast.2171/

Tell me your thoughts

The apostasy is linked with what in that 2 Thess.2 chapter? It is linked with the coming of that "man of sin" Paul points to that will come to sit in the "temple of God" (Jerusalem, not the Church), and will proclaim himself as God, and over all that is even called... God, or that is worshipped.

One could say one's religious state leading up to that false Christ coming could be part of the falling away, but the actual link is to that coming Antichrist.

"But how can a believing Christian fall away to worship the Antichrist instead of Jesus?," one might ask.

The answer: by being deceived into thinking that false Christ is... our Lord Jesus having come. This very point our Lord Jesus warned us about (Matt.24:23-26). That's what Paul was pointing to in the 2 Thess.2 chapter. The Antichrist is not coming as a recognizable anti-Christ. He is coming to play God, and to fool as many will into thinking he is God. He will do great signs, wonders, and miracles, raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men (Rev.13:11 forward). And the whole world (excepting Christ's elect) will worship him (Rev.13).
 
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The Times

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You stated in post #185

"Of course it is not a natural cloud in that particular case because God specifically stated He will appear in the cloud."

Ok........let us couple it with your other comment below....

"cloud means cloud - unless otherwise stated in the text."

Ok.......

Using your methodology and please wait for the drum roll.......

Psalm 91:4 ..........drum roll please......

He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

God is a chicken according to your methodology.

According to your methodology of cloud means cloud, in that Jesus will appear in the cloud.

Jesus is a cloud and is made up of a cloud, which is made up of moisturious vapours. Jesus is a vapour, a spirit according to your model of interpretation.

Come on brother, please look at the picture you posted in #174 .
 
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