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Featured 2 thess 2:3 "Falling Away"? is it Blasphemy

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by 1am3laine, Jul 9, 2018.

  1. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    Falling away is connected with the introduction of the Abomination of Desolation, in place of the Daily Sacrifice.
     
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  2. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible links 2 Thessalonians 2:1 <-> Matthew 24:31, "gather his elect". That was stated four verses before Matt 24:35, "this generation shall not pass until all this be fulfilled".

    So, then, yes, apparently 2 Thess 2 = Olivet Discourse = 70 AD destruction of the physical temple of Herod.

    The "falling away" would then reflect the Neronian persecution of 64-68 AD, in the wake of the Great Fire of Rome in July 64 AD, which was blamed on Christians. The AoD in the temple would accurately describe the numerous nefarious acts committed on the temple grounds during the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD, by all factions & sides involved.

    Jesus "coming on the clouds of heaven" (Matt 24, Olivet Discourse) was a "theophany", a showing of Divine Power in human history. Josephus actually did report exactly such a spectacular "super lightning storm" event at the time.

    The NT was written in very spiritual terms, almost a sort of "spiritual code", which is very confusing. But on closer inspection, it does appear pretty clear that

    2 Thess 2 = Matt 24 = Olivet Discourse (= 70 AD = "the rebellion" of 2 Thess 2:3)

    The NIV Study Bible links the words "gather elect from the four winds" to Deuteronomy 30, promising that after turning back to the LORD, God will lead his people back to the promised land. Spiritually interpreted, the "elect" = Christians, and God would indeed lead Christians to the forefront of the Greco-Roman world, inexorably, from the 1st - 4th centuries AD.

    NT Prophesies do appear repetitive, such that the "falling away" and "man of lawlessness" also fits well to Revelation 20:7-9 after the fall of the Christian Millennium and the rising of Gog leading Magog, leading up to the "real Second Coming" of the Great White Throne at Final Judgement. Perhaps 2 Thess 2 has "double applicability", both to Matt 24 and all the way ahead to Rev 20:7-9 ???


    -------------------------------

    NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible [​IMG]

    13:27 gather his elect from the four winds. Jewish people realized that they were scattered among the nations, but believed that God would gather them back to their land at the time of the end (Isa 11:12; 27:12; 40:11; 43:5; 49:5; Jer 29:14; 31:8,10; 32:27; Eze 11:17; 34:13; 36:24; 37:21); Jesus’ followers likewise expected to be gathered (1Th 4:17; 2Th 2:1; cf. Gentiles gathered in Isa 56:6 – 8).

    Spiritually interpreted, "Israel" --> "spiritual Israel" = Church, "promised land" --> "spiritual Dominion" = Millennium

    From a Christian perspective, the Judgement of 70 AD cleared the way for the Christian Church to grow, from a few far flung scattered communities, until it subsumed the whole Greco-Roman world several centuries afterwards
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  3. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Why make things so difficult? Have you never watched a plane fly into a cloud and so disappear? This is what Luke is telling us. They could see His body ascending, and He ascended into a cloud so they could no longer see Him. It was not because He suddenly disappeared. He disappeared because a cloud blocked their view. It could have been a rain cloud or a glory cloud. The point Luke made is that they could no longer see Him because of a cloud.

    Since Luke used the word translated into "receive" is it far more likely it was a cloud of glory.
     
  4. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    In short, the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until FIRST, the one restraining or holding him back is "taken out of the way." Can evil restrain evil? Can people falling away from something restrain something else?

    It makes far more sense that it is a departing (of the church through which the Holy Spirit moves and operates) that was meant by Paul, in keeping with his theme: the gathering or rapture of the church.

    One point is absolutely clear: whatever Paul meant by "apostasia" has to be the restrainer taken out of the way, for in verse 3b the man of sin is revealed (In paul's argument).

    Next, this has to be something very visible where people paying attention could say, "aha! This is what Paul was talking about!" If it was a falling away from the church, how would anyone know when enough had fallen away to be a significant falling away?

    On the other hand, if it was the departing of the church, that would be an instantaneous and very observable event.

    Finally, since we know that the man of sin is revealed at the midpoint of the week, would a departing of the church from earth before the revealing fit 1 Thes. 4 & 5? Yes, of course it does. Paul shows us in chapter 5 that the gathering of the saints (Dead and alive) from earth will come a moment before the sudden destruction beginning of God's wrath on earth, or the Day of the Lord.

    Once the church is taken up, suddenly the Holy Spirit has no one to work through to restrain the man of sin.
     
  5. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    If you read English translations BEFORE the King James translation, they called it a departing.

    Notice that is verse 3b, the man of sin IS revealed. If He IS revealed then (in Paul's argument), then he was sometime in the first half of this verse. Therefore, Paul's meaning of the world "apostasia" can mean nothing else but what he was talking about in verses 6-8: the restrainer preventing the revealing until the proper time, but then "taken out of the way" so that he could be revealed.

    Sorry, but "taken out of the way" sounds far more likely to mean the departing of the church where it is the power of the Holy Spirit causing this departing, than individuals choosing to leave the church. And after all, the departing of the church is Paul's theme for this passage.
     
  6. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

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    I think it turned into a weird thread. It's like the OP asks a question and everyone starts talking about the antichrist and the rapture and the clouds. We have a great cloud of witnesses here.

    But i, even i, who thinks he knows what's going on, had to google your idea. I never heard of the "blasphemy challenge". I haven't had a TV operating since 2006 when the "blasphemy challenge" began.

    There's a Got Questions page on it:

    https://www.gotquestions.org/blasphemy-challenge.html

    ABC News article:

    Reject God: Take the Blasphemy Challenge

    Fox News video:



    I think that you are correct to wonder, if it is happening now. Because i think it IS happening now, and has been happening for awhile and has already culminated by reaching it's fruition in the AofD standing where it ought not to be. The rebellion has come to it's completion. We are in the waiting zone now for who comes next, the man of sin.

    But it's not Christians leaving Christianity like some people are saying. Even the wicked are part of the apostasy. Even the atheists, the pagans, the eastern mystics, the muslims, the jews, the catholics and the protestants are all part of the rebellion. All the seven heads from the composite beast. The guy from the ABC article claims to be an atheist working from his basement.

    So i'll agree that this "blasphemy challenge" is a part of it, but the "rebellion" is manifold. There are many roads that the many nations and peoples and tongues can travel on that will lead them to the rebellion, a rebellion against the ways of God. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

    "Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.​

    But the "rebellion" comes first. Here Paul most likely is drawing from Matthew 23 and Daniel 8. The Pharisees have taken Moses' seat. Moses has the seat of authority to teach God's will for us. Remember the Sabbath, don't kill, don't commit idolatry and do not lie with a man as you would with a woman kind of deal.

    The "man of sin" thinks to change these times and laws, he speaks like a dragon but with the mouth of a lion. Like the Lion of The Tribe. He tries to TAKE this seat of authority away from God by rewriting the Rule Book. And he rises from the many nations and tribes. The people vote him in. The rebellion finally culminates through many a long year of Roe vs Wade style legal battles. Now we have live streaming pornography and same sex marriage. All completely legalized and accepted by the majority. The many peoples and nations and tongues have spoken.

    "In the latter part of their reign,
    when rebels have become completely wicked,
    a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.


    Towards the latter end of their popularity,
    when the majority have become completely reprobate,
    a stern faced king, their "man of sin" will be revealed.

    Think of it like the "abomination that makes desolate" is when the "rebels have reached their limit". Notice a Divine "limit to transgression", it's the kingdom of the transgressors not the kingdom of the 4 horns anymore. This is not talking about a specific nation or literal kingdom on earth, but instead is referring to the prevailing number or group of world wide transgressing individuals that are in the rebellion. This is the equivalent to the term the "great city" from Revelation, it's the jeering crowd of hard hearts screaming "crucify Him". But they now have gone global in our appointed time of the end.

    It's a spooky thought to think. We are here now living at the latter end of the kingdom of the transgressors, the kingdom of the rebels, when they have reached and exceeded their "limit". Surrounded and outnumbered by the reprobate minds, minutes away from the man of sin being revealed.

    And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it. That word for "worship" is proskuneo. It can also mean to "submit to" or to "obey". They have made lawful and popularized the evil and call that evil good.

    "And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has NOT been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

    If anyone has an ear,
    let him hear:​

    Peaceful Sabbath.
     
  7. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The phrase in 2 Thess 2 that Christ will "gather his people" may be an inversion of Jacob's final words that he himself will be "gathered unto his people" in Genesis 49:29

    Jacob/Israel --> his people
    elect people of Christ --> Christ​

    The former is a euphemism for passing away, the latter as an inversion implies life
     
  8. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Greek apostasia is where our English word apostasy comes from. And apostasy in English means to depart from what one once held to.

    As for the Strong's, his definition for "a falling away" in 2 Thess.2 is this:

    NT:646
    apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah); feminine of the same as NT:647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ["apostasy"]:

    KJV - falling away, forsake.
    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)



    And if you look up NT:647 that he points to, it is this:

    NT:647
    apostasion (ap-os-tas'-ee-on); neuter of a (presumed) adj. from a derivative of NT:868; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce:

    KJV - (writing of) divorcement.
    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


    In Summary:
    The 'falling away' Apostle Paul taught in 2 Thess.2 is about apostates from Christ that fall to worship the coming Antichrist he warns of in that same Chapter.
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Revisit. The departing referred to a departing from the true faith.

    Note in particular the falling away of the apostate papacy which occurred in the historical Christian Church over a period of more than 1,000 years of the medieval ages. This is what Paul was referring to.
     
  10. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    No it is not , it is imperative to accept the entire chapter of 2Thess2 to know what Paul meant , He did not say anything at all the papacy of the middle ages , that is not even close ,
     
  11. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Seventysevens is right here: The entire 70th week is future, and the rapture that comes first is future. The man of sin entering the temple is future.
    Paul was not writing about history.
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Paul was writing about what was future at the time he was writing it.

    2 Thess. 2 has nothing to do with the 70th week, or a rapture. The man of sin, the apostate papacy, sat in the spiritual temple of the Church for centuries. The 70th week was fulfilled by Christ at Calvary.
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Jesus did not "disappear". He ascended from earth into the cloud that received him. The disciples saw him taken up. To be no longer in their sight.

    There are instances when Jesus suddenly appeared and disappeared to the disciples after the resurrection. But those say vanished from their sight. Or suddenly appeared in the midst of them.

    How do I know that I am right and you are wrong? Because the two angels said he will come back in like manner. Different from the times he vanished from the disciples and suddenly appeared to them out of nowhere.

    Revelation 19 is the like manner.

    And in Revelation 6, the sixth seal, it says everyone sees him, before the throne of God in the third heaven. Which in Revelation 16:16 the kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon to make war on him.

    The whole world knows Jesus is coming at that point. Read the sixth seal. The cosmos is going to metaphorically rolled up, pulled aside. And the third heaven will be visible, which now the cosmos is the veil.
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    2Thessalonians2 has everything to do with the rapture, because Paul is talking to the Thessalonians, and to them, he had earlier made a big deal about the resurrection and rapture, and when it would take place. Which so far has been right on target.

    We should be thankful that Jesus chose Paul - because Paul is persistent, hardnosed, and driven. John on the other hand - is the apostle I like best because the characteristic about John was full of love.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I concur with your sentiments about both apostles.

    All contemporary English Bible translators, which is about fifty of them, agree that Paul was speaking about apostasy, not rapture.
     
  16. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    .
     
  17. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Question: how did everyone actually SEE His face when it clearly says He is seated on His throne?
     
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