2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[LightLoveHope]

the sickest and coldest thing

Harsh characturisation. I was suggesting eternal torment for the weak and unaware is difficult though not necessarily unjust. It leads me to suggest eternal is a mistake, except where it is due, for the beast and his followers.

I find it amusing, that my comment about eternal torment for babies does not make sense, is turned around that I am being harsh and sick. This particular issue is probably a driving force behind universalism, and the idea of ultimate dealing with sin so leaving a people capable of being purified against their will.

On the theme of what is our eternal future without reproduction, is interesting, because it creates a dilemma, what is the point of mortality?
If mortality is the start of potential immortality, then the failure or destruction of those who fail, is not evil or harsh, but a gift of grace, the gift of life, which those who rejected it freely chose to walk another path.

Paul addresses this issue in Romans

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Rom 1:18-20

So what is the point of eternal torture for mortal man? Based on the ratio of the Godly
to the unGodly, billions are in hell burning, while a few rejoice at the throne of God.

Is this really the picture that comes to mind of Holiness and a God of love?
Or is the annihilation of those who do not function in truth and love, leaving the people who know and dwell with Christ for all eternity make much better sense.

If you want to see how fragile man is, see people whose foundations have been removed and all they held dear turned to ashes, it is not a good sight. But you would see these same people tortured and tormented for all eternity for something they have no solution to resolve and the one healer they have rejected bring this justice to bare.

I wonder if God was to judge you on this basis, would you believe that was right and good?

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Matthew 7:2

 

[LightLoveHope]

Loss of salvation is garbage

Language. I wonder what rules your heart, when fellow believers do not agree with you, you judge and dismiss them so.

It is this that is the most dangerous spirit that can dwell in the heart, rejecting all around rather than seeing the blessing and God at work in others.

My issue is just with sin and people abiding in it. But for whatever reason this is worthy of condemnation, which is just being part of the lost world, so I pray for you.

Dear Lord Jesus, bring your love and grace to this place, so that your Spirit and heart dwells in us, so we can walk in your ways and see your Kingdom come to earth as it dwells in Heaven, Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

It is GARBAGE to think otherwise.(No outrage,No bad feelings) Just garbage.

Many would feel that your position is an indication of heresy and lostness, abiding in sin and refusing to resolve issues, which I have witnessed from many believers who hold your beliefs.

And for me it is just a distraction from the real issue of open hearts walking in the Spirit.
But then this conversation would never get that far, because of your sense of condemnation and rejection of my love of Jesus. Praise the Lord for His work in my heart, and for the cross through which we have redemption and reconciliation with God, Amen

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you believe all of people who are born and die before 13 are with Jesus.

I guess you really don't read my posts, or just don't understand words.

I even quoted Scriptue that speaks to what I called the "age of accountability". It's only assumption to put any specific age on it, as you've done.

It isn't about how old one is. It's about WHAT one understands about right and wrong.

There are problems with this theory, but thank you for proposing it.

There are problems with all your theories. I haven't provided any theories.

And on the subject of annihilation, if this is not the destiny of unbelievers why distinguish the beast and their followers who will be in torment for eternity if this is the fate of all?

Why do you dissociate Rev 20:10 from 20:15? Why wouldn't they both refer to the same outcome? Please explain. But I won't hold my breath for one.

Now I hold views based on letting the Lord speak to my heart through His word.

But you don't actually believe His word. Remember? So quit being insincere. Or dishonest. Whatever.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you feel this way of expressing yourself has any point?
Disdain and insult is not our way in Christ.

So, how do you describe a pitiful misunderstanding of God's word? Or, are you just ok with whatever one thinks and assumes about God's word?

I know your fruit and encouragement. I would encourage you to learn grace, patience love and kindness.

I would encourage you to believe what Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28.

I am still amazed at the intention to cause a reaction, rather than point to Jesus and His effect on our hearts when we see Him on the cross giving His life to purchase forgiveness for our sins.

What you've kept failing to recognize is that I HAVE BEEN pointing to Jesus and His words and teaching, which you have been rejecting all this time.

Halleluyah, Praise your name, Lord Jesus Christ, my Saviour and Lord.

You mean the One you don't believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You address an interesting problem. In one sense in this theology it is better to not have capacity because that guarantees salvation. But does this mean a lost person who had capacity, slips into incapacity, is now actually saved.

Your question proves that you do not believe what Jesus said clearly about those He gives eternal life.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER PERISH". How is this not clear?

In this view capacity is qualification for condemnation.

Another word for this is accountability. Do you believe that no one is accountable?

Paul addresses this issue saying the children of believers are redeemed through the believing party.

Have you really read the Bible? What verse do you find this assumption? Please cite.

In summary you have taken a universalist salvation for those without capacity.

So you don't believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone? But that doesn't make my view to be "universalist". They deny the single requirement (condition) of faith in Christ for salvation.

It also dilutes the concept of holiness and justice, the idea God is so Holy only the redeemed can dwell in His presence.

What in the world are you talking about? Are you actually suggesting that God isn't "so Holy that only the redeemed can dwell in His presence"? He is perfectly Holy in every way. And the faith of those who believe in Christ counted as righteousness.

I am confused.

No kidding!

No man is righteous in Gods eyes, and all deserve judgement, from babies to old men. If this is true, calling it the sickest and coldest thing to declare suggests you disagree with God.

Of course no man is righteous in God's eyes (apart from faith in Christ), and all deserve judgment. So, I'm claiming all this is true. So what have I called 'it' that is the "sickest and coldest thing to declare"? Please advise.

What I was talking about was the idea of what salvation in its true sense is. And the real conclusion is we do not fully know, because only when all things are revealed will we see clearly.

I've been asking about your views and explanations, but it seems you just aren't up to the task.

Now you also suggest Hell is eternal torture, for being born separate from God, out of which man cannot ever deliver themselves.

I've never suggested anything to you. I have pointed out what the Bible says and says quite clearly.

But it appears you have removed sin and those who do not have capacity.

I've removed nothing. Nonsense.

Sin is the reason Jesus came to earth and went to the cross. To pay the debt, the penalty for our sins. Don't you know this? It seems you do not.

My point about capacity is that those who die before they become capable of understanding right from wrong, and the need for salvation, are covered by the fact that Christ died for them. Once a person reaches capacity for these things, they ARE accountable for believing in Christ for eternal life. It seems you are not aware of this either.

In all honesty, I leave judging up to God, and can only point to His warnings.

Warnings that you do not come close to understanding.

Much of the christian church has resolved this issue with infant baptisms, so bringing in His children into the family of God.

Are you saying this is biblical? Then prove it with evidence, and not merely citing what "most of the christian church" has done. Sheesh.

I am curious.

No. Confused. Remember?

God saving a baby that has no awareness or real processing, where is the value?

Your questions are real doozies.

Your question seems to insinuate that God doesn't save any babies, just because they have no awareness or real processing? Is that a reason to send such a one to hell?

That would be really stupid.

I gave you actual evidence that David KNEW he would "go to" his infant son (the 7 day old baby born to Bathsheba). 2 Sam 12:23.

It seems you never look up any verses I cite. That only encourages ignorance of God's word.

Will they appear fully grown but unable to speak or interact, on will they grow up in heaven?

The Bible doesn't address this silly question.

Or will they be eternal babies needing the love and support of another into eternity?

Another silly question that isn't addressed in the Bible.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Your questions are real doozies.

Your question seems to insinuate that God doesn't save any babies, just because they have no awareness or real processing? Is that a reason to send such a one to hell?

Disgusting stuff really.

What a pit we end up in if we are not positive to His word.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Disgusting stuff really.

What a pit we end up in if we are not positive to His word.

The pit is wide and deep, for sure. How sad.

 

[Gr8Grace]

I would encourage you to believe what Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28.


What you've kept failing to recognize is that I HAVE BEEN pointing to Jesus and His words and teaching, which you have been rejecting all this time.

It really goes back to your original OP and verse. "Delight in wickedness." Wickedness is iniquity, and iniquity is the sin nature, and the sin nature is BOTH sinful and SELF- RIGHTEOUS.

So the sin nature can be immorally corrupt or MORALLY corrupt. And those who are indifferent to His word and rely on morality(even with some instructions from Jesus) are MORALLY corrupt.

You will never find a morally corrupt believer who will line up with the Spiritual way of life. They do it their way(wicked) rather than Gods way.
Hence the rejection of Gods simple plan of fellowship......From His word.

Wickedness, as described by a MORALLY corrupt believer will ALWAYS be overt sin.

 

[LightLoveHope]

"I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER PERISH". How is this not clear?

The first question is who are "them". The next question is when do they get eternal life and never perish?

If eternal life is the life we have now but without end, then you only know you do not have eternal life when it ends.

Never perish. If perishing is in the future, then you will only ever know you never perish is when others do and you do not.

So to say ones interpretation of eternal life, is something achieved today, means today everyone else dies, and never perishing, means everyone perishes today. If it is about an event in the future, then until we get there you do not know.

If I shout you do not die in the future, it can never be truly known until that future appears. Now some think eternal life is a different life they have received. But if literally it is just a promise and not a "thing" that is distinguishable from normal life, then it is just a promise.

Now Paul talks about the Holy Spirit being an indicator of this reality. A seal of the promise, an statement of intent.

What many seem to forget there are conditions. Believe, hold the faith, walk the path.

Now the delusion of obtaining something today which is actually given in the future is just wishful thinking. It is like saying I am rich, when you have nothing.

Those who believe in Jesus. Odd, stopping believing is not having the promise. The promise says, carry the ticket of faith, and you will not perish, lose the ticket and you will perish.

It is like saying get in a plane and fly to Africa. Halfway across the plane disappears, but because you were in the plane before you will arrive, except without the plane you die.

Jesus put it abide in the vine, you live, leave the vine you die. It is all pretty simple.
Take a branch from a tree, and it will die. Nature shows us, God shows us, yet somehow God is saying, no, no, no once a branch always alive, even when cutoff disconnected and dead. This must be dead branches talking of their past life in the vine, and wishing they knew they were back.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Your question seems to insinuate that God doesn't save any babies, just because they have no awareness or real processing? Is that a reason to send such a one to hell?

That would be really stupid.

Hell is a place of destruction, the ending of things. For the beast and his followers of torment.

Now let us say at the point of conception we come into existance. At some point we become aware and then responsible. Unless we are filled with the Spirit and walking in fellowship with God we are lost. And lostness means not functioning or being capable of proper relationship with the Father.

So the idea that an unborn baby goes to heaven is not meaningful. But we end up here if we say all those born to believers are saved. At some point a line has to be drawn, in our belief system. I am not saying I understand, but I ask questions to see if there are any answers.

Eternity is a privilege, a desire of the Lords heart. Few find it.

But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matt 7:14

So my only answer is where there is a relationship that works, upon this shall eternity be built. And the fruit of such a relationship is love, forgiveness and grace. It is also why some wonder at the extent of the gospel outside doctrine but in someones heart, a reality woven in their soul, rather than in the word.

However it is expressed Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Those who are so keen to reject and condemn, indicate with their hearts they are not open and free but rather desire to qualify through believing the right ideas, rather than walking in Gods reality.

 

[LightLoveHope]

the sin nature is BOTH sinful and SELF- RIGHTEOUS.

Here is the accusation. Anyone following Jesus and His ways, washed clean and made Holy is self-righteous, therefore evil and doomed to hell.

The ironic thing in this logic is the denial of cleansing and making pure the people of God, and the accusation that in repenting of ones sins and walking in the ways of Jesus is somehow evil, implies they neither repent, or resolve the heart issues which lead to sin, or deal with sin in their lives.

The reason I can say this, if they believed they could resolve sin, ie be cleansed and made Holy, they would then in their minds be self righteous and therefore evil. So it is like sinning affirms their faith that they are right, except Jesus and the apostles condemn such as these as evil-doers and lost.

Freedom is Christ is freedom to choose how to love and care for others. The warning is this freedom should be used for good and for evil.

Paul puts it like this

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Rom 6:1-2

We died to sin. We died to sin.

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
Rom 6:11-13

We are to be instruments of righteousness.

Now all Paul is talking about is impossible if we have not been cleansed purified and made whole in Christ. And then to claim walking as Paul encourages us to do is actually evil is to deny the gospel.

And if one is denying the gospel one has become the enemy of Jesus.

This is the fruit of saying sin is not resolved in the heart and the heart does not need to flow with love to all those around.

 

[LightLoveHope]

The folly of denial of sins domination.

If one has a problem with sinful behaviour, a closed heart, an inconsistent life, how do you resolve it? You remove the issue from the table.

Sin does not matter because Jesus has dealt with the penalty for sin for the world, therefore sinful behaviour does not exclude you from salvation.

All that matters is faith. And the believers who believe are then saved. And if saved, made eternal, therefore can never lose this status, even if they turn evil, and overthrow all they believed prior to this point.

So now a lost unbelieving sinner, is a redeemed, pure and holy saint destined to dwell with Jesus even though they are truly lost. This is a delusion that is driven by desperation and emotional need for reassurance without the reality within or the desire to open their hearts and get real with God. The cancer of such a position is the vitriol and condemnation of followers of Jesus and righteous behaviour. It is such as sinner described in revelations, continuing in their sin and refusing to repent despite judgement and warnings from the Lord.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It really goes back to your original OP and verse. "Delight in wickedness." Wickedness is iniquity, and iniquity is the sin nature, and the sin nature is BOTH sinful and SELF- RIGHTEOUS.

So the sin nature can be immorally corrupt or MORALLY corrupt. And those who are indifferent to His word and rely on morality(even with some instructions from Jesus) are MORALLY corrupt.

You will never find a morally corrupt believer who will line up with the Spiritual way of life. They do it their way(wicked) rather than Gods way.

Which is exactly what Jesus said to the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 about what they were trusting to get then into the kingdom; their works.

When people think they can earn God's favor by what they themselves do, they are WICKED.

Hence the rejection of Gods simple plan of fellowship......From His word.

Wickedness, as described by a MORALLY corrupt believer will ALWAYS be overt sin.

Excellent post! Well said.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hell is a place of destruction, the ending of things. For the beast and his followers of torment.

I'm just sad and amazed at your ignorance or maybe just full rejection of Scripture.

I already shared these verses from Revelation 20 -
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. These are 2 human beings and 1 angel, the devil himself.

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

This verse refers to the rest of humanity who never received the free gift of eternal life.

Either you don't understand the phrase "tormented day and night for ever and ever", or you have decided to reject what God's word very clearly says.

But then, you're already used to doing that. Which is what you've done with John 10:28.

Now let us say at the point of conception we come into existance. At some point we become aware and then responsible. Unless we are filled with the Spirit and walking in fellowship with God we are lost.

Such ignorance continues. You've got it all backwards.

We are born lost. Separated from God. We need to be born again, regenerated.

And no one can be filled with the Spirit UNTIL they believe in Christ.

Gal 3 -
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

I'm just amazed at how much you demonstrate your ignorance of the Word. You might want to stop posting and start reading the Bible. And post only AFTER you've learned a lot of things. Things that you don't currently know or understand.

And lostness means not functioning or being capable of proper relationship with the Father.

Wrong again. Lostness means going to hell for not possessing the gift of eternal life.

It means being separated from God.

So the idea that an unborn baby goes to heaven is not meaningful.

So you reject what King David said about his 7 day old son who died in 2 Sam 12:23.

But, what's new?

But we end up here if we say all those born to believers are saved.

No we don't end up 'here'. Your logic is so flawed as to be unusable.

At some point a line has to be drawn, in our belief system.

Well, now we see some light. Yes, we do. And the line that has to be drawn for you is to believe the verses that you have been rejecting.

I am not saying I understand, but I ask questions to see if there are any answers.

You've been given a lot of answers from Scripture, yet your heart remains cold to truth.

Eternity is a privilege, a desire of the Lords heart. Few find it.

What does this flowery but ambiguous sentence mean?

Eternity is reality of existence after physical life on earth. Plain and simple.

But few understand that. You among them.

But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matt 7:14

So, what does that mean?

So my only answer is where there is a relationship that works, upon this shall eternity be built.

And your answer is wrong, once again. The ONLY WAY to have relationship with God is through faith in Christ. Want proof? I'm happy to oblige.

John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,

I'm guessing that you don't understand these verses.

And the fruit of such a relationship is love, forgiveness and grace.

Actually, the fruit is eternal life and living with God for eternity.

It is also why some wonder at the extent of the gospel outside doctrine but in someones heart, a reality woven in their soul, rather than in the word.

But you don't operate in a world of reality. Rather, your world is your feelings. Which is not reality.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is the accusation. Anyone following Jesus and His ways, washed clean and made Holy is self-righteous, therefore evil and doomed to hell.

It is just stunning to read your posts and see how much you misunderstand. Neither Gr8Grace or I have ever said such nonsense as what you posted above.

Those who have been washed clean are saved. But if they grieve and/or quench the Holy Spirit, and live legalistic lives unto themselves, they are self righteous and evil. Which is what you've been describing yourself as, not in those words, though.

The ironic thing in this logic is the denial of cleansing and making pure the people of God, and the accusation that in repenting of ones sins and walking in the ways of Jesus is somehow evil, implies they neither repent, or resolve the heart issues which lead to sin, or deal with sin in their lives.

You've made it very clear that you have no idea how one is saved.

We died to sin. We died to sin.

OK, now define what that means.

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
Rom 6:11-13

Explain this, please.

We are to be instruments of righteousness.

What's the way we do this?

Now all Paul is talking about is impossible if we have not been cleansed purified and made whole in Christ. And then to claim walking as Paul encourages us to do is actually evil is to deny the gospel.

Since Paul was addressing saved people, we already know that his audience had been cleansed and made whole.

And if one is denying the gospel one has become the enemy of Jesus.

From all you've posted, and demonstrated the scope of your ignorance, I believe that you have denied the gospel. You don't seem to understand how to be saved, or grow in grace in their salvation.

This is the fruit of saying sin is not resolved in the heart and the heart does not need to flow with love to all those around.

Such phrases as "flow with love" and all the other "touchy-feely" phrases you love to type are nothing more than gobbledy-gook and psycho-babble.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The folly of denial of sins domination.

If one has a problem with sinful behaviour, a closed heart, an inconsistent life, how do you resolve it? You remove the issue from the table.

What does this mean? Please explain to "remove the issue from the table". And use Scripture to support your explanation.

Sin does not matter because Jesus has dealt with the penalty for sin for the world, therefore sinful behaviour does not exclude you from salvation.

Is this your own view or are you again focusing on some idiots you met elsewhere?

All that matters is faith.

You disagree? Have you never read Heb 11:6?
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

You really think all your lovey-dovey psycho-babble phrases please God? He sees right through it.

The only way to please God is with faith.

And the believers who believe are then saved. And if saved, made eternal, therefore can never lose this status, even if they turn evil, and overthrow all they believed prior to this point.

You are demonstrating by this paragraph that you reject that salvation is by faith alone, or that a saved person is eternally secure. The very things that Jesus taught clearly.

So now a lost unbelieving sinner, is a redeemed, pure and holy saint destined to dwell with Jesus even though they are truly lost.

Wow. This is delusional.

This is a delusion that is driven by desperation and emotional need for reassurance without the reality within or the desire to open their hearts and get real with God.

None of which you seem to understand at all. Your "emotional needs" are your problem.

The cancer of such a position is the vitriol and condemnation of followers of Jesus and righteous behaviour.

Those who outright deny and reject what Jesus and the rest of the Bible teach CANNOT truly be followers of Jesus. And their behavior is anything but righteous.

Rejecting what Jesus taught about eternal security is EVIL.

It is such as sinner described in revelations, continuing in their sin and refusing to repent despite judgement and warnings from the Lord.

That's what I am seeing in yourself. A refusal to repent of your rejection of what the Lord Jesus taught.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is what is so sad. I ask questions of LLH and yet he never directly answers any of them. He ignores all of what I post, and especially the verses I include that support my views.

But then, what other option does he have? When Scripture is presented, one either accepts and believes it, or they don't accept it and they don't believe it.

He has taken the second route. In spite of all his lovey-dovey, touchy-feely pyscho-babble phrases and words. They are empty.

 

[EmSw]

This is what is so sad. I ask questions of LLH and yet he never directly answers any of them. He ignores all of what I post, and especially the verses I include that support my views.

But then, what other option does he have? When Scripture is presented, one either accepts and believes it, or they don't accept it and they don't believe it.

He has taken the second route. In spite of all his lovey-dovey, touchy-feely pyscho-babble phrases and words. They are empty.

How you love to denigrate others. Let's put this to a test about yourself.

Matthew 19:17
...but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments.

When this scripture is presented, do you accept and believe it, or, do you not accept it, nor believe it? Are you going to take the 'second route'? Is Matthew 19:17 just a 'touchy-feely, psycho-babble phrase' to you?

 

[Gr8Grace]

This is what is so sad. I ask questions of LLH and yet he never directly answers any of them. He ignores all of what I post, and especially the verses I include that support my views.

As a matter of fact, they can't even answer questions from those who line up with them. They have rejected so many scriptures they don't have FACTS for each other. They just have subjective, emotional, suggestions. Pelted with some 'nice' lovey-dovey language.

No real answers for anyone, just open ended suggestions that are ALWAYS subjective.

When God has a SPECIFIC plan for salvation and a SPECIFIC plan for believers after salvation. And It is a pretty simple plan.

But then, what other option does he have? When Scripture is presented, one either accepts and believes it, or they don't accept it and they don't believe it.

And not to mention that we both have stuck to the clear,unambiguous and obvious 'points of doctrine' verses.John 5:24 being one of those "truly,truly" verses.......Thats The Lords way of saying," PAY ATTENTION to this particular teaching. Because It will be attacked by the world."

He has taken the second route. In spite of all his lovey-dovey, touchy-feely pyscho-babble phrases and words. They are empty.

And It's only lovey-dovey when it's about SELF. but when it comes to babies(what's the value) and rebellious believers the love stops.