2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[Gr8Grace]

Here is the accusation. Anyone following Jesus and His ways, washed clean and made Holy is self-righteous, therefore evil and doomed to hell.

Whatever Peter. I have told you countless times believers NEVER perish.
I believe your words are empty in your following the Lord Jesus Christ and His ways.

Are you one of His sheep? Then you have eternal life and will never perish.

Your not following the Lord Jesus Christ and His ways if you think you or other sheep can perish. No way around this simple fact. You may be sincere, but your sincerely wrong.

 

[EmSw]

As a matter of fact, they can't even answer questions from those who line up with them. They have rejected so many scriptures they don't have FACTS for each other. They just have subjective, emotional, suggestions. Pelted with some 'nice' lovey-dovey language.

No real answers for anyone, just open ended suggestions that are ALWAYS subjective.

When God has a SPECIFIC plan for salvation and a SPECIFIC plan for believers after salvation. And It is a pretty simple plan.

And not to mention that we both have stuck to the clear,unambiguous and obvious 'points of doctrine' verses.John 5:24 being one of those "truly,truly" verses.......Thats The Lords way of saying," PAY ATTENTION to this particular teaching. Because It will be attacked by the world."

And It's only lovey-dovey when it's about SELF. but when it comes to babies(what's the value) and rebellious believers the love stops.

John 14:15
If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Those who have been washed clean are saved. But if they grieve and/or quench the Holy Spirit, and live legalistic lives unto themselves, they are self righteous and evil. Which is what you've been describing yourself as, not in those words, though.

Here again is the problem.
I am self righteous and evil.

I am at loss. I use Pauls words to describe our walk, our faith, putting on life and putting off the works of the flesh, but certain folk turn this around, because it meets their criteria, and describe my sharing as something different from what it is. I share with many brothers and sisters in Christ, love, our walk, our confessions and our faith, yet here, with certain folk, I fall short, because they hold with an extreme view of Christs work and the removal of the penalty of sin for the world.

And this is the problem I have come across consistently. Sinners desire to justify themselves as believers though knowingly falling short. They then condemn others who do not agree with their walk or theology as evil unbelievers.

Dear Lord Jesus, help us all to see you more clearly, to love you more dearly and follow in your ways each and every day, Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Your not following the Lord Jesus Christ and His ways if you think you or other sheep can perish. No way around this simple fact. You may be sincere, but your sincerely wrong.

According to the above theology, at pentecost only the believers who believed they could not lose their salvation were saved.

When Peter preached, did he say, you must believe that once you have faith you can never lose salvation or else you have not received salvation? No.
And it would not have to occurred to them to teach it.

Rather the opposite. Walk in the faith and the principles that are the Kingdom of heaven. Put of the works of the Spirit and put to death the works of the flesh.

Only people who have grown up in the church and always wondered about salvation, who develop this security blanket to put their worried hearts to rest, rather than trusting in Gods grace and His great love to keep them in His arms.

Deeper still those with a closed heart and corrupt passions which they refuse to resolve, compromise their hearts and refusal to change and be broken, by excusing it all as merely a lie, and they are truly saved, and the broken, open hearted followers are liars preaching a gospel of satan.

And so it will stay, because the open hearted know healing and Christs moving, and the closed hearted as secure in their defence calling the others liars and hypocrites who could never obtain victory or freedom.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Gr8Grace said: ↑
Your not following the Lord Jesus Christ and His ways if you think you or other sheep can perish. No way around this simple fact. You may be sincere, but your sincerely wrong.

According to the above theology, at pentecost only the believers who believed they could not lose their salvation were saved.

According to your answer you didn't read it.

This is what it is like discussing issues with you~~

I make a Point~~I am going fishing tomorrow.

Peter~~I am glad your neighbor mowed your lawn yesterday.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Why take a driving test if you know you will fail?
Why obey the rules if the rules are there just to show you you are a failure?

So listening to Jesus and obeying Him is not part of abiding in Him and knowing love flowing from ones heart.

My wish is people learn sin can only be condemned when it is obvious. Saying a believer is not a believer because they hold this idea in this way and not that, is not sin, but delusion. It is sinful to condemn a believer and follower of Jesus as evil and following satan, when they are obeying and believing in Jesus. The very rejection of sheep of the Lord, His people, is worthy of Hell.

And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.
Mark 9:42

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
Rom 2:13

Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?
James 4:11-12

So beware of folk who would judge brothers and sisters in Christ falsely, and slander them as evil, and reject them from the gospel of grace and love, while these people honour, love and follow Jesus.

I have worked across denominations, theological groups, spirit led, doctrinally led people and found the Lord working in all these situations. So it grieves me when a group claim to know Jesus yet speak such division and judgementalism based only on their belief of evil and hypocrisy. This has never been the way God works or His message. So I will just warn against such people and testify to the glorious work He is doing among His people, Halleluyah, Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Gr8Grace said: ↑
Your not following the Lord Jesus Christ and His ways if you think you or other sheep can perish. No way around this simple fact. You may be sincere, but your sincerely wrong.

According to your answer you didn't read it.

This is what it is like discussing issues with you~~

I make a Point~~I am going fishing tomorrow.

Peter~~I am glad your neighbor mowed your lawn yesterday.

I know this approach well. Security has never been a salvation issue, and is not in scripture as such.

If in a conversation this fact cannot be accepted, it is the fruit of such a distortion that best shows its error and heresy.

What I am looking for is why people are hardened to the essence of salvation. I know the nature of love, and how we are hurt and defended through our lives, and have lived with the consequences of this in my family.

When you see what happens with open hearts, expressing what you feel and learning how to follow Jesus, there is no other way. In one sense I am a slave to righteousness, loving others, and seeing the need.

I once went into a family were the kids just needed love and attention from the parents but they were just to selfish and self absorbed. It was heart breaking. Just showing a chink of normal affection to the kids was like gold. People in the world end up eating each other, and putting up massive protection, which destroys their hearts and lets worldly passions free.

The Kingdom is about love without restraint, help without limit.
It does need though context, and care needs to be taken so boundaries are recognised.

But this for some is like poison, the opposite of why they go to church and do faith. So to them I wonder what faith actually is, and how a message of hope has become one of isolation and distortion. But to people such as me, we are in the Lord, and it is here we stay, because this is our life, love and truth.

God bless you and have a happy new year.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How you love to denigrate others.

No, I point out the inconsistencies and lack of faith in the Word when others demonstrate such behavior.

Let's put this to a test about yourself.

Matthew 19:17
...but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments.

When this scripture is presented, do you accept and believe it, or, do you not accept it, nor believe it? Are you going to take the 'second route'? Is Matthew 19:17 just a 'touchy-feely, psycho-babble phrase' to you?

Wow, really? Are you still on that jag?

I've already shown you HOW one receives eternal life, but since you have rejected those verses, just as LLH has rejected the verses about eternal security, there's really nothing more to add.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 14:15
If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

Amen!!

And if you want eternal life, you must believe (full trust) in the Lord Jesus Christ to give it to you.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

This verse tells us HOW to possess eternal life and teaches eternal security.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

This verse informs us of Who gives eternal life, and to whom (believers = His sheep) and eternal security.

1 John 5 -
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

More verses about HOW to possess eternal life.

Do you believe these verses?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here again is the problem.
I am self righteous and evil.

Those who don't believe all that Jesus teaches and think that their own actions can undo the grace work of Jesus Christ on the cross ARE self righteous and EVIL.

I am at loss.

Your greatest loss is knowledge of Scripture.

I use Pauls words to describe our walk, our faith, putting on life and putting off the works of the flesh, but certain folk turn this around, because it meets their criteria, and describe my sharing as something different from what it is.

But you don't understand Paul's words. Not in the least.

I share with many brothers and sisters in Christ, love, our walk, our confessions and our faith, yet here, with certain folk, I fall short, because they hold with an extreme view of Christs work and the removal of the penalty of sin for the world.

You have demonstrated that you have no idea what biblical love even is.

 

[Gr8Grace]

It is sinful to condemn a believer and follower of Jesus as evil and following satan,

Right. So you better rid yourself of the notion that believers lose salvation or perish.

But it is righteous to rebuke and encourage a believer who is grieving or quenching the Spirit. We can't kid ourselves here. We all are acting evil and following satan when we are out of fellowship with the Lord.

when they are obeying and believing in Jesus.

You have repeatedly shown that you don't obey The Lord Jesus Christ. He say's you will NEVER perish. You say you can.

The very rejection of sheep of the Lord, His people, is worthy of Hell.

First of all you don't have scripture for this garbage.

Secondly, you just condemned yourself to hell. It is YOU, that rejects some sheep and say they can perish.

And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.
Mark 9:42

Anything done outside of the faith is sin. Loss of salvation is outside of the faith. I would rather have a millstone tied around my neck and thrown into the sea rather than tell a believer he can lose salvation.

Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?
James 4:11-12

The Irony. A loss of salvation believer using this verse.

And A side note~~
Amazing how believers use the book of James to judge who is a brother and who is not when James clearly rejects this notion.

So beware of folk who would judge brothers and sisters in Christ falsely, and slander them as evil, and reject them from the gospel of grace and love, while these people honour, love and follow Jesus.

Honor the Lord Jesus Christ? He says we will never perish. It's not honoring the Lord when you say we can perish.

And quit with the accusation's that FreeGrace or I are judging your salvation........We are judging your doctrines.

So it grieves me when a group claim to know Jesus yet speak such division and judgementalism based only on their belief of evil and hypocrisy.

Well loss of salvation grieves the Spirit, and brings ultimate division and judgmentalism.

And satan has been a master at blinding believer's how to actually live the Christian way of life. It is truly tragic to watch believers reject that plan when given the opportunity to learn it and apply it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why take a driving test if you know you will fail?

And, just how does this question relate to anything we've been discussing with you? I see no relevance at all.

Why obey the rules if the rules are there just to show you you are a failure?

Once again, ditto. Please explain your concerns, whatever, so they can be understood. Your questions seem meaningless.

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
Rom 2:13

Why don't you believe the other things Paul wrote about the Law?

For example:
Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Gal 2:16 - know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Gal 3:5 - So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Gal 3:10 - For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

Gal 3:19-25
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.
20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Heb 7:19 - (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Why don't you believe these verses?

So beware of folk who would judge brothers and sisters in Christ falsely, and slander them as evil, and reject them from the gospel of grace and love, while these people honour, love and follow Jesus.

So beware of those who profess to be Christians but DON'T believe what Jesus taught.

 

[Gr8Grace]

I know this approach well. Security has never been a salvation issue, and is not in scripture as such.

If in a conversation this fact cannot be accepted, it is the fruit of such a distortion that best shows its error and heresy.

For crying out loud Peter? Are you really this dense or are you doing it on purpose?

I have shown you a hundred times, if not a thousand times, that this fact is ACCEPTED on my part.

Faith alone in Christ alone is the salvation issue. Nothing else.

Security comes from growing in His grace and knowledge for the FOREVER saved believer.

Those who don't grow in His grace and knowledge, will never have true security........Doesn't mean they are not saved.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Again I have shared my heart.
I do not need to know what these others wish to share if all they can do is say I am wrong, do not know love or scripture.

This kind of approach is like poking people in the eye, breaking their legs and saying they are blind and cannot stand.

One guy called me brainwashed because I believed the creeds and confessed my faith like the disciples of old. This is what happens when language and its meaning is rejected to be changed by someone elses interpretation which is not the meaning of the words or how they are written.

And of course once someone has convinced themselves of this, every verse will only speak their way. I first came across this among muslim preachers, who spoke from a culture where the words had a different context. Until someone can break outside these constraints they never really see the others point of view.

God describes this as a delusion. And I leave it at that.
We are simply called to obey the law through the love of Christ, and to bless those we meet. If some claim to be believers but cannot do this, then I doubt there is much meaningful that can go on between us.

God Bless you.

Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him--
to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
Rom 16:25-27

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again I have shared my heart.
I do not need to know what these others wish to share if all they can do is say I am wrong, do not know love or scripture.

Do you not realize that the MOMENT you indicate belief in what we have shown you from Scripture is the MOMENT there will be no reason to tell you that you are wrong.

Why isn't that clear to you?

This kind of approach is like poking people in the eye, breaking their legs and saying they are blind and cannot stand.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

One guy called me brainwashed because I believed the creeds and confessed my faith like the disciples of old.

Who cares what "one guy" called you? Has anyone on this forum called you that?

This is what happens when language and its meaning is rejected to be changed by someone elses interpretation which is not the meaning of the words or how they are written.

You keep hiding behind "someone else's interpretation". So, just tell us what John 10:28 says.

Until someone can break outside these constraints they never really see the others point of view.

There is only 1 legitimate point of view in regard to the Bible. It's what the Bible SAYS.

God describes this as a delusion. And I leave it at that.
We are simply called to obey the law through the love of Christ, and to bless those we meet.

This is woefully lacking. We are called to much more than that. In fact, our election is totally based on service. That involves everything we do.

Your approach is way too simplistic. It lacks depth of knowledge.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Again I have shared my heart.

Well, you should realize what your heart said. Here are a few examples of what your heart has said:
We are condemning you.
We are saying you are lost.
We are saying you are not a sheep.
We are saying if one doesn't believe in eternal security,they really are not saved.
We are saying that YOU are evil.

And many more FALSE allegations.

And your heart shares that believers might perish. But His word shares that His sheep have eternal life and never perish.

I do not need to know what these others wish to share if all they can do is say I am wrong, do not know love or scripture.

Well, quit sharing stuff that is WRONG.

This kind of approach is like poking people in the eye, breaking their legs and saying they are blind and cannot stand.

And I am very thankful that I have people in my life who did this to me. I was saved, but I was pretty much stuck in the rut that your stuck in. Doing it my way, when God has a specific plan for us.

This is what happens when language and its meaning is rejected to be changed by someone elses interpretation which is not the meaning of the words or how they are written.

Case in point:

When the Lord Jesus Christ clearly says His sheep(believers) NEVER perish. Then someone comes along and says they might perish.

I first came across this among muslim preachers, who spoke from a culture where the words had a different context. Until someone can break outside these constraints they never really see the others point of view.

This is rich. FreeGrace and I have been very clear that we understand and see your point of view.....Hence all the disagreement.

We have been very clear about our point of view.........but they are never addressed. Just 'someone' else's point of view that you have met in the past somewhere. <<<<<Which never seems to remotely relate to our point of view.

You don't see our point of view? Or do you hate it? The muslim's understand the Christians point of view. They just HATE it.

We are simply called to obey the law through the love of Christ, and to bless those we meet.

This is part of the reason I keep after ya. If you think this is what the Christian way of life is........Your MISSING out on so much.

 

[Gr8Grace]

John 14:15
If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

Very true. BUT.......How do you explain this to a babe or a believer who is struggling?

Your explanation will be subjective.And won't take into consideration the mandates/commandments He just told the disciples for the CHURCH( a little mystery doctrine that has been hidden for ages.) It has been revealed to us................But it seems(being nice.....you hate Paul) you don't like Paul, and the mystery doctrine he was CALLED and ELECTED to reveal to us.

 

[Timothy416]

John 14:15
If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

If we want to truly live as Christ taught us to live, when people quote the above verse, they should, in honesty and humility admit they themselves do not even try and obey each and every literal command of Christ. Then they will show love and compassion to their brothers and sisters, by not demanding of them what they fail to even try and achieve in their own lives. Crushing others with demands we ourselves deo not even try and keep is definitely not loving them

 

[LightLoveHope]

If we want to truly live as Christ taught us to live, when people quote the above verse, they should, in honesty and humility admit they themselves do not even try and obey each and every literal command of Christ. Then they will show love and compassion to their brothers and sisters, by not demanding of them what they fail to even try and achieve in their own lives. Crushing others with demands we ourselves deo not even try and keep is definitely not loving them

Here is the dilemma. If we find it so hard to love another, to not defend and remove ourselves, to lash out and bring down, where is the problem, in our hearts or in what Jesus said?

The truth is this walk is not easy, and it grates against who we are. But that is why it is a narrow path and gate is hard to find.

Now the defeatist claim to talk about Jesus's words and commands is crushing them. But in truth, talking about we have to change within, we need to learn the realities of eternity and of grace, of the cross and of sacrifice.

When Paul says this

We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world. I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children.
1 Cor 4:10-14

There is a reason why monks and nuns exist. This walk is very difficult and there are many issues which defeat many in their lives and can take a lifetime to resolve. Now I do not believe in withdrawing from the world or taking vows, rather I believe in being in the world but not of it.

But this easy believism, the desire to say all words are just to push on to depending on Christ, is just hypocrisy. Repent, let failure spur you deeper into the realms of wondering how we change, why we behave as we do, where our loyalties really lie, how scared we are of being humbled and losing. Once you have died to self and died with Christ, things take on a different perspective and meaning. When every step is chosen and the cost known, when the price is demanded, the knee can freely bow to honour the King who has made the way.

Amen

 

[Timothy416]

Here is the dilemma. If we find it so hard to love another, to not defend and remove ourselves, to lash out and bring down, where is the problem, in our hearts or in what Jesus said?

The truth is this walk is not easy, and it grates against who we are. But that is why it is a narrow path and gate is hard to find.

Now the defeatist claim to talk about Jesus's words and commands is crushing them. But in truth, talking about we have to change within, we need to learn the realities of eternity and of grace, of the cross and of sacrifice.

When Paul says this

We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world. I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children.
1 Cor 4:10-14

There is a reason why monks and nuns exist. This walk is very difficult and there are many issues which defeat many in their lives and can take a lifetime to resolve. Now I do not believe in withdrawing from the world or taking vows, rather I believe in being in the world but not of it.

But this easy believism, the desire to say all words are just to push on to depending on Christ, is just hypocrisy. Repent, let failure spur you deeper into the realms of wondering how we change, why we behave as we do, where our loyalties really lie, how scared we are of being humbled and losing. Once you have died to self and died with Christ, things take on a different perspective and meaning. When every step is chosen and the cost known, when the price is demanded, the knee can freely bow to honour the King who has made the way.

Amen

Possibly instead of quoting John 14:15, in hypocrisy, if we who quote it do not even try to follow it, according to obeying each and every literal command of Christ, it would be better to tell people how to fulfill Christ's law the correct way:
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfill the law of Christ Gal6:2