2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[Gr8Grace]

Num 23:19~~New International Version
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Did God promise Israel, with victory, the coming of His Kingdom and then did He not also kill and reject many because of rebellion, sin and unbelief?

So, you believe God does not fulfill His promises?
1 John 2:25~~New American Standard Bible
This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

Titus 1:2
in the hope(confident expectation/certainty) of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began.


Heb 6:17-18~~New International Version
Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope(confident expectation/certainty) set before us.

 

[JLHargus]

Unlike John 10:28, which says plainly that recipients of eternal life (which occurs WHEN one believes) shall never perish. So, the promise of eternal security is WHEN one first believes.

Once saved, always saved.
Once sealed, always sealed.
Once belief, never perish.

JL: You post above, “ eternal life (which occurs WHEN one believes) shall never perish. And Once belief,never perish.”

I have yet to meet a two thousand year old Christian they have all perished. It is only after the resurrection they shall never perish.

[Mk10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands,with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.]

v.30 is obviously about one's physical status: weak, sickly and physical death. That's the progression of God's PAINFUL discipline. And, again, nothing here about losing salvation. How come there are NO verses anywhere that plainly speak of losing salvation. All you've provided are passages where you ASSUME they refer to losing salvation, yet none of them says so plainly.

You must ASSUME against all common sense in order to hold a tradition of men OSAS which contradicts scripture. Unless you can produce a two thousand year old Christian who has never perished you have no evidence.

[Mt13 41: The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43: Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.]

[2Pt2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;]

 

[FreeGrace2]

JL: You post above, “ eternal life (which occurs WHEN one believes) shall never perish. And Once belief,never perish.”

I have yet to meet a two thousand year old Christian they have all perished. It is only after the resurrection they shall never perish.

Why would you think that my view of John 10:28 deals with continuing physical life? That would be ludicrous. Of course "never perish" refers specifically to avoiding the "second death" or lake of fire as described in Revelation 20.

[Mk10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands,with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.]

Do you understand what is being said here about receiving a 100fold?

You must ASSUME against all common sense in order to hold a tradition of men OSAS which contradicts scripture.

More ludicrousness. John 10:28 is a direct statement FOR eternal security.

Unless you can produce a two thousand year old Christian who has never perished you have no evidence.

Your argument is just amazingly ludicrous. I've never argued that a believer will never die physically. That is beyond absurd.

[Mt13 41: The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43: Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.]

[2Pt2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;]

Now that you've embarrassed yourself by your failed understanding of what Scripture means by "perishing", do you have anything reasonable to discuss?

 

[LightLoveHope]

So, you believe God does not fulfill His promises?

Now let us look at Gods promises. I will judge Nineveh. Unless they repent.
They repented, judgement put aside.

I will save you, if you believe. You stop believing so no salvation.

God said to Adam, do not eat of this tree or you will die.
Adam ate, he died. A promise by God is more like consequences, with no escape.

If you ever read contracts, there are no stand out sentences. It is always about everything, all the conditions, exceptions, inclusions and exclusions. Only a fool thinks because one sentence says you gain everything that is what it is all about.

I learnt long ago to not listen to the salesman who says, no that exclusion does not apply here because you know the writer, are really friendly and they like you.

God has no favourites, no special rules or groups. He is always consistent, from the beginning to the end. We are abrahams children by faith, if we trust Him and walk in His love. What is a stake here is simple, love and how it works in our hearts through Jesus and the cross.

The ironic thing is, for those who live with sin, commit sin and do not repent, think it is all ok, nothing I write will matter, because for them I am a liar and hypocrite, which is also their state. They do not believe they can be anything else which is a prison with no exit door, a state of unbelief and closed hearts. But as the wind blows away husks and chaff so will their lives and convictions evaporate when hard times come.

Praise the Lord, He is embedded in me unto death, the rock upon which I stand, not because I am strong, but because I am weak, and in Him I find my rest. Thank you Jesus that there is nothing in my life upon which I could boast, it is all yours, to the end of time, and it is your love that teaches me how to walk each and every day. Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

To perish is an interesting term.

Because for some it means not tortured, or tormented eternally.
I wonder how perishing could mean this, because in that case what is the point of the torture, and how can a finite lostness deserve an eternal torture. Is God disproportionate? A child born in ignorance, unable to talk, yet tortured for all eternity because they were born into sin and separation from God. Is this justice? Is this what God planned, when historically 4 out of 6 children never make it to adulthood.

On this basis hell is torturing mainly children for all eternity. Now that is quite a thought. But does the God of love make sense of such a situation? Oh but they deserved it.

Now I can accept the gift of life is a glorious thing, and the taking of life its natural mortal consequence. The end thereof justice, where the eternal has not touched the mortal. Where payment is due, a fair amount is taken in Hades, but then the end.

And what of believers who denied the victory of Christ, and wallowed in sin and self pity imaginning their hearts were unable to be healed, and the sinful poison that spilled out was just not seen because Christ covered it up, like an eternal fixer who favours His friends over His enemies, even if His friends have become His enemy. Odd that idea, but then the deluded are always open to believing anything for an easy life, what.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Now let us look at Gods promises.

UHM, I just showed you. Plain,clear and unambiguous.
Deal with those. Then we can go into the verses that you pit against scripture and His promises.

I will save you, if you believe.

We can post many scriptures for this truth.

You stop believing so no salvation.

We can't post ONE scripture for this garbage.

God said to Adam, do not eat of this tree or you will die.
Adam ate, he died. A promise by God is more like consequences, with no escape.

Unbelievable. You will believe, without question ,that Adam will perish when He ate the fruit because God said he would. But you won't believe that He gives believers eternal life and they will NOT PERISH because God said they will NOT.

How can you not see this? You really should be advocating that God lied to Adam, he might not perish.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Why would you think that my view of John 10:28 deals with continuing physical life? That would be ludicrous. Of course "never perish" refers specifically to avoiding the "second death" or lake of fire as described in Revelation 20.


Do you understand what is being said here about receiving a 100fold?


More ludicrousness. John 10:28 is a direct statement FOR eternal security.


Your argument is just amazingly ludicrous. I've never argued that a believer will never die physically. That is beyond absurd.


Now that you've embarrassed yourself by your failed understanding of what Scripture means by "perishing", do you have anything reasonable to discuss?

To read his response to you? Sometimes, I can't believe these people function in society with some of the "logic'" used.

 

[BNR32FAN]

JL: You post above, “ eternal life (which occurs WHEN one believes) shall never perish. And Once belief,never perish.”

I have yet to meet a two thousand year old Christian they have all perished. It is only after the resurrection they shall never perish.

[Mk10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands,with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.]



You must ASSUME against all common sense in order to hold a tradition of men OSAS which contradicts scripture. Unless you can produce a two thousand year old Christian who has never perished you have no evidence.

[Mt13 41: The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43: Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.]

[2Pt2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;]

Amen my friend

“Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has become a child of God. And everyone who loves the Father loves his children, too. We know we love God’s children if we love God and obey his commandments. Loving God means keeping his commandments, and his commandments are not burdensome. For every child of God defeats this evil world, and we achieve this victory through our faith. And who can win this battle against the world? Only those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:1-5‬

“And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments. If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth. But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him. Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:3-6‬

“If we love our brothers and sisters who are believers, it proves that we have passed from death to life. But a person who has no love is still dead. Anyone who hates another brother or sister is really a murderer at heart. And you know that murderers don’t have eternal life within them.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:14-15‬

“And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people’s faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them. Such people are not serving Christ our Lord; they are serving their own personal interests. By smooth talk and glowing words they deceive innocent people. But everyone knows that you are obedient to the Lord. This makes me very happy. I want you to be wise in doing right and to stay innocent of any wrong. The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. May the grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭16:17-20‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

To read his response to you? Sometimes, I can't believe these people function in society with some of the "logic'" used.

“But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:14‬

 

[Gr8Grace]

“But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:14‬

Which is exactly why he thinks 'never perish' means physical death in John 10:28. Even a kid understands we perish physically.

God is concerned about our SPIRITUAL life. And "never perish" is concerning ETERNAL life, not the dust we come from physically.

And again, dump the NLT. Just compare the Greek to what that nasty thing says.......You would dump it under truthful and honest scrutiny. The NASB does a pretty good job following the original. Not perfect, but a pretty good job.

 

[LightLoveHope]

We can't post ONE scripture for this garbage.

Here we have a simple statement and a sense of outrage.
There are a lot of scriptures that show we need to keep the faith till the end, that we must walk in His ways or it is in vain, that to dwell with the most high is to know His blessing.

1. We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.
Heb 6:11

2. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 cor 1:8

3. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
Gal 6:9

4. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
1 Cor 6:9

5. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:18-23

6. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Rom 2:7

7. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
Rom 6:22

8. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Gal 6:8

We are called to walk in His ways and do demonstrate our commitment is deeper than just words, but is part of our very being.

Now for standing on the word of God and His testimony I am told this is garbage. I must apologise I do not know what you are referring to when you say scripture does not suggest the very things it is saying.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Which is exactly why he thinks 'never perish' means physical death in John 10:28. Even a kid understands we perish physically.

God is concerned about our SPIRITUAL life. And "never perish" is concerning ETERNAL life, not the dust we come from physically.

And again, dump the NLT. Just compare the Greek to what that nasty thing says.......You would dump it under truthful and honest scrutiny. The NASB does a pretty good job following the original. Not perfect, but a pretty good job.

In some cases, not all, the NLT is actually more accurate than the NASB, KJV, ESV, and ASV. For example John 15:2.

“He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭NLT‬‬

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭ESV‬‬

In this particular case Jesus is talking about a branch that is “in Him” which means it is attached to the vine. So when we look at the definition of the word aírō (G142) we see

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

The end result is we have a believer who is removed from the vine (Christ) resulting in loss of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

To perish is an interesting term.

And easily understood in the context it is found. When Jesus says those He gives eternal life shall never perish, it is obvious He is speaking about eternity. They will never perish in the lake of fire, which is where all unbelievers will go.

In other contexts, it is just as obvious that the term refers to physical death.

Because for some it means not tortured, or tormented eternally.

Here we go again with what "others" think.

I wonder how perishing could mean this, because in that case what is the point of the torture, and how can a finite lostness deserve an eternal torture.

So, what do you believe? That no one will go there (universalism) or that unbelievers will be annihilated so as to not suffer for eternity?

Are you not aware that neither of these views are taught in Scripture?

Do you not believe what happens to those, fallen angels and humans, who are cast into the lake of fire?

Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here we have the devil, who is a fallen angel, along with 2 humans, the beast and false prophet, being cast into the lake of fire. And Matt 25:41 says that the lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels.

And Rev 20:15 is very clear about the fact that all who have not received the gift of eternal life will be cast into the lake of fire. And all who end up in the lake of fire "will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Do you know how long "for ever and ever" is?

Is God disproportionate?

Always silly questions.

A child born in ignorance, unable to talk, yet tortured for all eternity because they were born into sin and separation from God. Is this justice? Is this what God planned, when historically 4 out of 6 children never make it to adulthood.

Are you not aware that Christ died for the sins of everyone? So, those who never reach the age of accountability, or as Isa 7:15,16 says:
15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right,
16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

This refers to the Lord Jesus Christ in His humanity. Even He had to come to this knowledge as a human. This speaks of the age of accountability.

When humans reach this awareness of right and wrong, they become accountable. Until then, they are covered by the "blood of Christ" on their behalf.

So your concern about little babies is baseless.

On this basis hell is torturing mainly children for all eternity.

Again, your basis is quite faulty.

King David fully understood the principle here, when his son from his sin with Bathsheba died at 7 days!

2 Sam 12:23 - But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

Some believers, who demonstrate zero discernment of Scripture, claim that this only means David would "join his son in the ground" when David dies. But that is idiotic. David was saved and knew he would go to heaven when he died. That's what he was referring to here. When he dies, he "will go to him" in heaven, where his son was.

I really do grieve for your abject ignorance of God's word.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Now for standing on the word of God and His testimony I am told this is garbage.

Wrong again. What is garbage is your pitiful misunderstanding of God's word. As you've just been explained again in my previous post.

I must apologise I do not know what you are referring to when you say scripture does not suggest the very things it is saying.

Wow, is this ironic!!

What Jesus said about believers in John 10:28 means the very thing He said. Yet, you do not believe what He said.

And, then you have the gall to make this claim!

Unbelievable.

 

[LightLoveHope]

So your concern about little babies is baseless.

So you believe all of people who are born and die before 13 are with Jesus.
There are problems with this theory, but thank you for proposing it.

And on the subject of annihilation, if this is not the destiny of unbelievers why distinguish the beast and their followers who will be in torment for eternity if this is the fate of all?

Now I hold views based on letting the Lord speak to my heart through His word.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Wrong again. What is garbage is your pitiful misunderstanding of God's word. As you've just been explained again in my previous post.

Do you feel this way of expressing yourself has any point?
Disdain and insult is not our way in Christ.

I know your fruit and encouragement. I would encourage you to learn grace, patience love and kindness. I am still amazed at the intention to cause a reaction, rather than point to Jesus and His effect on our hearts when we see Him on the cross giving His life to purchase forgiveness for our sins. Halleluyah, Praise your name, Lord Jesus Christ, my Saviour and Lord.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Here we have a simple statement and a sense of outrage.

Nope. Just a statement. Loss of salvation is garbage. His word has no loss of salvation in it.

There are a lot of scriptures that show we need to keep the faith till the end, that we must walk in His ways or it is in vain, that to dwell with the most high is to know His blessing.

Find any post that I argue against this. And to the last part, Eternal security is part of His blessing to us.......You don't know that.........Yet. We will keep working on ya.

1. We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.
Heb 6:11

This is why your hope is NOT SURE. Your not diligent in believing what is SURE. John 10:28. You have eternal life and will never perish. If you don't stay diligent........You will argue with us till your blue in the face that your hope is not SURE. John 10:28, diligently meditate on it. Your hope will become SURE.

2. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 cor 1:8

Notice eternal security in this.....He WILL keep you strong......to the END.

3. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
Gal 6:9

Right. And if believers shirk their duties, their harvest is going to be pretty small......When they ENTER the kingdom.

4. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
1 Cor 6:9

Yep. Believers who shirk their duties will not inherit the kingdom upon ENTERING the kingdom. Medial tasks rather than leadership tasks.........................IN the kingdom.

5. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:18-23

Yep. Believers who shirk their duties will not inherit the kingdom like believers who follow His plan. When they ENTER the kingdom.

6. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Rom 2:7

Who has glory,honor and immortality?..............The Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 16:31. Believe on Him and you shall be saved.

7. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
Rom 6:22

Right. Being saved results in eternal life.

8. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Gal 6:8

Right. Believers who shirk their duties.....and don't know how to live the Christian way of life possibly can suffer the sin unto death, physical death.......the Lord brings them home to be FACE TO FACE with Him.

We are called to walk in His ways and do demonstrate our commitment is deeper than just words, but is part of our very being.

Correct.

Now for standing on the word of God and His testimony I am told this is garbage.

Whatever. John 10:28. You have eternal life and will never perish. the idea that you can perish is GARBAGE.
~~Pay special attention to the next quote~~

I must apologise I do not know what you are referring to when you say scripture does not suggest the very things it is saying.

The scripture doesn't 'suggest' that you will never perish. It SAY'S it. He promises it. He does not lie. He does not change His mind.

It is GARBAGE to think otherwise.(No outrage,No bad feelings) Just garbage.

 

[Gr8Grace]

In some cases, not all, the NLT is actually more accurate than the NASB, KJV, ESV, and ASV. For example John 15:2.

“He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭NLT‬‬

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭ESV‬‬

In this particular case Jesus is talking about a branch that is “in Him” which means it is attached to the vine. So when we look at the definition of the word aírō (G142) we see

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

The end result is we have a believer who is removed from the vine (Christ) resulting in loss of salvation.

Well the NLT goes off the deep end on this one. The others, not good.

Context is key. What do you think 'prunes' means with the believers who ARE producing fruit? It's CUTTING off branches that are not fruitful. And before this mention of fruitful believers we have a mention of unfruitful believers. What does God do for unfruitful believers?...........He "lifts them up" so they can be fruitful.

"He lifts them up" Fits the context. He lifts them up, when they start producing fruit, He prunes(CUTS OFF) the unfruitful parts.

Again. No loss of salvation. Just the wish for it. And why other believers wish for it is beyond me. John 10:28 couldn't be more clear.

 

[Gr8Grace]

So you believe all of people who are born and die before 13 are with Jesus.
There are problems with this theory, but thank you for proposing it.

Pretty much the sickest and coldest thing I have read for a while. Not to mention that so few Christians know the fact that Jesus Christ died for all sin.

We are condemned by God at birth(sounds horrible,but it's a blessing in disguise.) And The Lord Jesus Christ died for all sin. That makes everyone savable. And God asks us to CHOOSE life or death. Believe (Life)or don't believe(Death) in the Lord Jesus Christ for your salvation. Those who don't have the mental capacity to CHOOSE Are SAFE, because God condemned us at birth and The Lord Jesus Christ paid for all sin.

So those who don't understand the choice are safe. covered by His cross and blood.
Jon 4:11~~New American Standard Bible
"Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?"

If you never understand the truth of eternal security, at least understand this truth.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Those who don't have the mental capacity to CHOOSE Are SAFE, because God condemned us at birth and The Lord Jesus Christ paid for all sin.

You address an interesting problem. In one sense in this theology it is better to not have capacity because that guarantees salvation. But does this mean a lost person who had capacity, slips into incapacity, is now actually saved.

In this view capacity is qualification for condemnation.

Paul addresses this issue saying the children of believers are redeemed through the believing party. The reverse is also true, no believing party implies they are doomed.

In summary you have taken a universalist salvation for those without capacity.
I would say this idea is salvation is not dependant on a relationship but on a legal bargain.

It also dilutes the concept of holiness and justice, the idea God is so Holy only the redeemed can dwell in His presence.

Pretty much the sickest and coldest thing I have read for a while.

I am confused. No man is righteous in Gods eyes, and all deserve judgement, from babies to old men. If this is true, calling it the sickest and coldest thing to declare suggests you disagree with God.

What I was talking about was the idea of what salvation in its true sense is. And the real conclusion is we do not fully know, because only when all things are revealed will we see clearly. Now you also suggest Hell is eternal torture, for being born separate from God, out of which man cannot ever deliver themselves.

But it appears you have removed sin and those who do not have capacity.
In all honesty, I leave judging up to God, and can only point to His warnings. Much of the christian church has resolved this issue with infant baptisms, so bringing in His children into the family of God.

I am curious. God saving a baby that has no awareness or real processing, where is the value? Will they appear fully grown but unable to speak or interact, on will they grow up in heaven? Or will they be eternal babies needing the love and support of another into eternity? And in eternity if there is no reproduction or bringing others into consciousness, it is a static place in one sense. It might explain why things on earth are still on going, because eternity has not yet finished with mortal earth and those yet to come.....