2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[Gr8Grace]

Mystical eternal making into the people of heaven.

I am not the best communicator, but this makes no sense.......as usual.

Let us compare ideas.
1. God makes us His children, eternal, forever, never to be disowned or caste aside, except we have free will and will be judged for unbelief and sin.

2. God makes us His children who walk in fellowship and love of Him, who could freely walk away, except His children choose not to because they are His children and not fake.

It would be nice if you would compare the ideas that have been put forth by those conversing with you on this thread.

 

[EmSw]

Nope. Got it wrong again.

The "work" that God requires is to believe on His Son. That is perfectly clear.

We also know this from Jesus -

So, go ahead and just ignore John 5:24 and 6:47 where He plainly says that whoever believes POSSESSES (in the present tense) eternal life.

Let's hear it from your own lips - DO YOU BELIEVE JESUS WHEN HE SAID THIS?

Matthew 19:17
...but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments.

Do you believe these words are truth? Or, do you not believe them? If you believe them, why do you not follow them? How do you propose to have eternal life when you don't believe them?

Jesus gives eternal life (John 10:28) on the basis of faith in Himself.

The passage you quoted is exactly about that. Eating and drinking here is the same as drinking in John 4. They are not literal, if you think so. They are metaphors for believing in Christ.

The same as John 10:9, about "entering through Me (the gate) and being saved".

Jesus never said we have eternal life on the basis of faith in Him.
If they are your metaphors, then show me how you interpret these passages -

Matthew 6:31
Be not therefore anxious, saying, what shall we eat? or, what shall we drink? or, wherewithal shall we be clothed?

Matthew 9:11
And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, why eateth your Teacher with the publicans and sinners?

Matthew 15:2
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

Matthew 15:27
But she said, yea, Lord: for even the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.

Matthew 26:26
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it; and he gave to the disciples, and said, take, eat; this is my body.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's hear it from your own lips - DO YOU BELIEVE JESUS WHEN HE SAID THIS?

Matthew 19:17
...but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments.

Do you believe these words are truth? Or, do you not believe them? If you believe them, why do you not follow them? How do you propose to have eternal life when you don't believe them?

Jesus never said we have eternal life on the basis of faith in Him.
If they are your metaphors, then show me how you interpret these passages -

Matthew 6:31
Be not therefore anxious, saying, what shall we eat? or, what shall we drink? or, wherewithal shall we be clothed?

Matthew 9:11
And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, why eateth your Teacher with the publicans and sinners?

Matthew 15:2
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

Matthew 15:27
But she said, yea, Lord: for even the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.

Matthew 26:26
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it; and he gave to the disciples, and said, take, eat; this is my body.

Let me make myself as clear as possible. I believe every word from Jesus. And I understand every word, unlike people like yourself, who have misunderstood, and actually rejected, many parts of the NT.

 

[EmSw]

Let me make myself as clear as possible. I believe every word from Jesus. And I understand every word, unlike people like yourself, who have misunderstood, and actually rejected, many parts of the NT.

So, you believe we keep the commandments to enter life! Wonderful!

Merry Christmas!!!

 

[LightLoveHope]

Let me make myself as clear as possible. I believe every word from Jesus. And I understand every word, unlike people like yourself, who have misunderstood, and actually rejected, many parts of the NT.

"I understand every word" - now this is a strange statement, because some of what Jesus says is not clear, and believers have wondered throughout our history.

To then claim they have a settled view on these things is simply either they have reached a place of knowledge Peter, John, James, Paul had not yet achieved or they are exagurating. And I think this is the clarity of the position. We are servants, who desire to walk in His ways, and in time things will become clearer. Even Paul mentioned he saw through a glass darkly.

Now if faithful believers are really lost, deceived and following the enemy, then you know whatever they are claiming to believe, they have lost their focus on how to love one another as Jesus loved us. But for us His people, it matters not, because you either listen and follow or you do not know Him.

The definition Paul used simply defines believers live pure lives, while the impure have not known Him. Amen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, you believe we keep the commandments to enter life! Wonderful!

You know better than that. Or should.

Merry Christmas!!!

Same to you and yours.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"I understand every word" - now this is a strange statement, because some of what Jesus says is not clear, and believers have wondered throughout our history.

To then claim they have a settled view on these things is simply either they have reached a place of knowledge Peter, John, James, Paul had not yet achieved or they are exagurating.

Your ignorance of Scripture keeps showing.

It was Paul who described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23, and then stated that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

It was Peter who stated that believers are born of imperishable seed in 1 Pet 1:23.

It was John who stated that those who have believed have been given (a past tense action) eternal life in 1 John 5:11.

And it was John who agreed with Jesus that whoever believes has (currently possesses) eternal life.

And there is no ambiguity about what Jesus said in John 10:28. He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

To claim that is unclear is to claim one just cannot grasp the meaning of words.

And I think this is the clarity of the position. We are servants, who desire to walk in His ways, and in time things will become clearer. Even Paul mentioned he saw through a glass darkly.

He had no doubt about eternal life being a gift of God, that was irrevocable.

 

[LightLoveHope]

It was Paul who described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23, and then stated that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

There is a simple problem here in your interpretation.
Paul is saying Gods call to Israel in national terms in irrevocable so some in Israel will turn in belief to Him, one day, but until that time, they are excluded through unbelief.

Because of Israels unbelief, we are believers have been grafted in the vine of Gods people. But the reason we are grafted into the living vine is because of belief not temporary belief that never took hold.

So I fully understand the position being put here, which is to be grafted in is an eternal act, except only if belief is maintained. How can one be in the vine while denying its existance or importance?

How sincere is a man who says they repent of murdering someone, while hating and wanting revenge on others and planning and executing their murder? One would conclude they are lying to themselves and those around them. Understand the nature of sin and the limits of our existance and our calling to love and serve the King. This is all God is asking us to do, within our capabilities in the Spirit. Yet it appears to follow in Jesus's footsteps is impossible for some, which suggests they neither know Him or the Spirit.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Let us look at the real proposition.
Are we slaves to sin, forever caught in hatred, fear and revenge for the injustice of our existance and the rights we see we have above others or in Christ, freed lovers of truth and life, walking in love and showing the fruit of love by our every footstep?

Now some will claim they know Jesus and paint the idea of walking in love and having love literally flowing from us is a hypocritical lie, peddled by legalists who desire to prove to God their own worth. Such were the pharisees, who had no love in their hearts and did not know what justice, mercy and faithfulness are.

When love reigns supreme in our hearts through the cross, it is here we learn how to become slaves to righteousness that leads to eternal life, and to put to death the passions of the flesh.

Oddly those who claim to know Jesus, say they are unable to resist the flesh or purify the heart and have faith that gives them eternal life, while they have not tasted the fruits of eternal life which Jesus delivers to His people here and now, Praise the Lord, Amen.

 

[JLB777]

Do you really think that LYING is cute?

Please stop hiding your lying false doctrine by leaving out scripture, and misquoting the Bible by leaving off words.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

Do you really think that LYING is cute?

From my post #1703, which is on this page above:
"you said:↑
Then why do you always refuse to quote it, and attempt to explain it away."

I responded:
"This is directly from post #1568, on page 79:

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

OK, for the color coded explanation.

The red words identify who will be given eternal life.
The blue words are a description of what His sheep DO.
The green words are a statement of the CAUSE of possessing eternal life.
The purple words are a statement of the EFFECT of possessing eternal life.
The brown words is a summary statement of eternal security.

There it is, in FULL COLOR. v.27 identifies the recipients of eternal life.
v.28 is the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

You are free to provide an explanation of how my explanation is incorrect, if you are able to do that.

So, what was your response to my color coded explanation of the 2 verses? This very lame question:
"Then why do you always refuse to quote it, and attempt to explain it away"

First, I directly quoted both verses, so your claim that I "always refuse to quote it" is a total LIE.

And second, if my color coded explanation is nothing more than an "attempt to explain it away", then why aren't you capable of proving your claim and showing how and why that's all I did?

iow, prove that the color coded words DON'T match my explanation.

But, to do that, you'd have to also prove that 1 + 1 = 1 million."

So, in 2 posts (1568 and 1703) I gave you a full color explanation of BOTH verses. Yet you continue to LIE your head off by saying that I never address v.27.

What is your problem, anyway?
Instead of simply addressing either post, and explaining how and why my full color coded explanation cannot be correct, all you do is continue to resort to LYING.

Aren't you the one who quotes Rev 21:8 as ways believers CAN perish?
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Well, the red words sure do describe you. So you've only condemned yourself by your own posts.


Your statement does NOTHING to refute my full color coded explanation of BOTH verses.

But you can't do better than simply repeat yourself. You don't know how to defend your own views or refute the views of others.

The TRUTH always refutes LIES. Always.


If you take this verse to mean "how to obtain eternal life and go to heaven", you couldn't be more wrong.


The context? Do you really think that other verses changes the plain meaning of v.24?

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

How about some more full color coded explanation?

The red words identify possessors of eternal life.
The blue words indicate what believers possess in the present tense.
The green words indicate what has already occurred back WHEN they believed.
The purple words indicate what is guaranteed not to occur in the future.
The green words indicate why believers won't be judged.

Now, please proceed to address my full color explanation and prove that my points are incorrect, wrong, in error, etc.


This is one of the most lame excuses for not addressing another poster there is.

If you only cited a reference and made a false point, I would EASILY quote the cited verse and prove that your point is false.


The plain and clear words of v.24 don't magically go away or change in meaning by anything else in the Bible.

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8


Read it and repent.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"It was Paul who described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23, and then stated that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29."

There is a simple problem here in your interpretation.

No, the simple problem is that you assume there is an interpretation. I gave you FACTS; what the Scripture SAYS in very plain terms. Which you have demonstrated that you just don't want to accept. So you hide behind your "interpretation" excuse.

Paul is saying Gods call to Israel in national terms in irrevocable so some in Israel will turn in belief to Him, one day, but until that time, they are excluded through unbelief.

The plain fact is that eternal life is a gift of God, according to Rom 6:23. That is no "interpretation". It's exactly what Paul SAID.

So I fully understand the position being put here, which is to be grafted in is an eternal act, except only if belief is maintained.

Now we're getting to the notion of interpretation. What verse tells us plainly that belief must be maintained for salvation to continue?

Hint: there aren't any. But feel free to share any verse you have "interpreted" way.

How sincere is a man who says they repent of murdering someone, while hating and wanting revenge on others and planning and executing their murder?

Where does the Bible speak of "sincerity"? Are you that unaware of the fact that many people are sincerely WRONG??

Sincerity and a dime won't get you a cup of coffee.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let us look at the real proposition.

Let's do this instead. The only proposition for you to consider is what the Bible plainly says, and for you to stop hiding behind your "interpretation" excuses.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Do you really think that LYING is cute?"

Please stop hiding your lying false doctrine by leaving out scripture, and misquoting the Bible by leaving off words.
JLB

Unbelievable! Yes, it quite clear that you do think so.

I am happy to remind you once again that post #1568 and #1703 both provided a full color explanation of both John 10:27 and 28.

So you have no excuse for your repeated LYING.

You used to quote Rev 21:8 a LOT. Have you forgotten what it says?

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

You've not only shot yourself in the foot, but you also included your head.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8

Read it and repent.
JLB

You are amazingly dense. The red words that I just shared with you in my previous post refers to all your LIES.

You have NEVER addressed either post #1568 or #1703 both of which provided a full color coded explanation of both John 10:27 and 28.

What have you been waiting for? Or, have you finally come to the conclusion that you can't address either post because they totally refute your false man-made doctrines.

 

[Gr8Grace]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
It was Paul who described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23, and then stated that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

There is a simple problem here in your interpretation.

Rom 5:15~~New American Standard Bible
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

Rom 6:25~~New American Standard Bible
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 11:29~~New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


1 John 2~~25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

Num 23:19~~ New International Version
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?



Heb 6:17~~New American Standard Bible
In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath,

 

[Gr8Grace]

When love reigns supreme in our hearts through the cross, it is here we learn how to become slaves to righteousness

2 Pet 3:18~~New American Standard Bible
but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Rom 10:2~~New American Standard Bible
For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

It is only through His knowledge,(the mind of Christ/His word)bible doctrine and being POSITIVE to His word are we able to learn how to live the Christian way of life.

If we are void of bible doctrine, we may have a zeal for God and have pseudo love.........but we are not living in accordance with His knowledge.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.
Eph 4:15-17

And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
Col 1:10-12

We are to live a life worthy of the Lord, knowing the knowledge of God.
We speak the truth in love.

There is no separation between knowledge of God and love of Him and His love flowing from us.
What is odd is those who feel these words are wrong and a challenge to their position, because if it was not so they would not desire to propose loving God and following Him are not the very fulfilment of Gods grace at work in our hearts, Amen

Somehow they believe living an unworthy life is part of being a believer, rather than a denial of our foundations and the Holy Spirit at work in us.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.
Eph 4:15-17

One must first know the truth before they can speak it in love.

And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
Col 1:10-12

One cannot be worthy of the Lord if one doesn't believe what the Lord teaches.

We are to live a life worthy of the Lord, knowing the knowledge of God.
We speak the truth in love.

One cannot live a life worthy of the Lord, or know the knowledge of God, or speak the truth in love when one doesn't believe the truth.

There is no separation between knowledge of God and love of Him and His love flowing from us.

There is a whole lot of separation between knowledge of God and professed love of Him.

It is dishonest and insincere to claim love of Him while at the same time not believing what He says about recipients of eternal life.

What is odd is those who feel these weeds are wrong and a challenge to their position, because if it was not so they would not desire to propose loving God and following Him are not the very fulfilment of Gods grace at work in our hearts, Amen

All false doctrines are weeds and are wrong.

Somehow they believe living an unworthy life is part of being a believer, rather than a denial of our foundations and the Holy Spirit at work in us.

It is quite unfortunate that there are believers who do live unworthy lives, even though the Bible commands us to be worthy and live worthy lives unto the Lord.

And the Holy Spirit is NOT at work in those who are out of fellowship because of their grieving and/or quenching the Holy Spirit.

 

[LightLoveHope]

One cannot be worthy of the Lord if one doesn't believe what the Lord teaches.

This is very true. You need to obey His commands, follow His teaching, open your heart and love Him, forgive those who sin against you, and listen closely to the prompting of His Spirit in ones life. So Amen, how true this is.