2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

What Jesus said can be and is true. The problem is your interpretation and assumption of OSAS that is not true, not found in scripture anywhere but contradicts many scriptures.

Then please explain to me what Jesus meant in John 10:28, if eternal security is not true. Because the plain wording says it is true.

The saved will never perish,

Well, there you go. Eternal security for the saved.

[2Pt2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through The knowledge of The Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them[/b]. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.]

Why do you suppose and assume that "latter end worse" refers to eternity? There is no basis for that. The whole context is about lifestyle. So, those who have believed, and THEN return to their former ways, go deeper into their former ways. So they end up in worse sin than before they believed.

[Gal5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.]

OK, there are 3 parallel passages about inheriting the kingdom. Here, in 1 Cor 6 and Eph 5. In Gal 5 and 1 Cor 6, the key phrase is "shall not inherit the kingdom". But, in Eph 5, the key phrase is "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

Since all 3 passages are parallel, the 2 key phrases are equated in meaning.

So, to "not inherit the kingdom" is the same as "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

What you miss is that one can be IN the kingdom and have NO inheritance there.

How many times does one have to be a fornicator, to be unrighteous? How many times does one have to be an idolater to be unrighteous and not inherit the kingdom of God?

Doesn't matter.

[Jms1:14 But every man is tempted, When he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth Death.]

OK, explain to me how one who possesses eternal life can die spiritually? And use Scripture to prove your point.

Instead, the obvious meaning here is that sin breaks fellowship with the Lord. And sometimes the Bible describes that break as a death. Death of fellowship.

[Gal6:7 be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.]

This verse is about whether a believer will receive eternal reward or not.

JLThe question was what are those in Hebrews falling from?
JL: What do you mean by, fall away from the faith? I take it as no longer Christian, unbelief.

To fall away from the faith means to no longer believe. But why would that change one's saved status, since Eph 1:13,14 makes it very clear that those who have believed ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit who GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption (words of eternal security), as God's own possession.

Eph 1:
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

JL: Everyone dies physically from the most holy to most wicked. Those who fall away may have been chastened to prevent them from falling away, but not to punish them for falling away.

Your sentence here doesn't make sense. Please re-phrase.

[Hb12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9-10 …. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.]

A clear passage about God's discipline, which is PAINFUL (v.11). Nothing here about losing salvation though.

[1Cor11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.]

v.30 is obviously about one's physical status: weak, sickly and physical death.

That's the progression of God's PAINFUL discipline.

And, again, nothing here about losing salvation.

How come there are NO verses anywhere that plainly speak of losing salvation.

All you've provided are passages where you ASSUME they refer to losing salvation, yet none of them says so plainly.

Unlike John 10:28, which says plainly that recipients of eternal life (which occurs WHEN one believes) shall never perish. So, the promise of eternal security is WHEN one first believes.

Once saved, always saved.
Once sealed, always sealed.
Once belief, never perish.

 

[JLB777]

There is nothing in John 10:27 that says this opinion of yours. We KNOW who are qualified to be Jesus' sheep. That is found in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Here, Jesus uses the metaphor of entering through a gate (Himself) for faith in who He is and what He has done for mankind individually.

Then why do you always refuse to quote it, and attempt to explain it away.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Those sheep who hear His voice and follow Him, are those who will receive eternal life.


These don’t get snatched from Him because they listen and obey His voice.


That is what the word “hear” means in verse 27, to listen with the intent of doing what is heard.


Otherwise sheep who do not listen and do what He says, end up wandering away and becoming lost.


Are sheep who become lost still saved or do the lost need salvation?




JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"There is nothing in John 10:27 that says this opinion of yours. We KNOW who are qualified to be Jesus' sheep. That is found in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Here, Jesus uses the metaphor of entering through a gate (Himself) for faith in who He is and what He has done for mankind individually."

Then why do you always refuse to quote it, and attempt to explain it away.

This is directly from post #1568, on page 79:

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

OK, for the color coded explanation.

The red words identify who will be given eternal life.
The blue words are a description of what His sheep DO.
The green words are a statement of the CAUSE of possessing eternal life.
The purple words are a statement of the EFFECT of possessing eternal life.
The brown words is a summary statement of eternal security.

There it is, in FULL COLOR. v.27 identifies the recipients of eternal life.
v.28 is the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

You are free to provide an explanation of how my explanation is incorrect, if you are able to do that.
------------------------------
So, what was your response to my color coded explanation of the 2 verses? This very lame question:
"Then why do you always refuse to quote it, and attempt to explain it away"

First, I directly quoted both verses, so your claim that I "always refuse to quote it" is a total LIE.

And second, if my color coded explanation is nothing more than an "attempt to explain it away", then why aren't you capable of proving your claim and showing how and why that's all I did?

iow, prove that the color coded words DON'T match my explanation.

But, to do that, you'd have to also prove that 1 + 1 = 1 million.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Those sheep who hear His voice and follow Him, are those who will receive eternal life.

Except you cannot find any words that support your claim in the verse.

These don’t get snatched from Him because they listen and obey His voice.

Except you cannot find any words that support your claim in the verse

That is what the word “hear” means in verse 27, to listen with the intent of doing what is heard.

No, hearing is a description of WHAT His sheep DO.

Otherwise sheep who do not listen and do what He says, end up wandering away and becoming lost.

Show me a verse that links not listening and doing with wandering away and becoming lost.

Otherwise, just another man made bit of fluff.

Are sheep who become lost still saved or do the lost need salvation?

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

What is clear about His statement is that not perishing is based on being given eternal life. Nothing about any conditions that recipients must fulfill in order to not perish.

You are guilty of adding to Scripture. And being in direct opposition to what Jesus said so very clearly.

So, since you cannot prove in any way that my color coded explanation of v.27 and v.28 is wrong, obviously it isn't wrong.

And my explanation refutes your man made up opinion about the verses.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Then why do you always refuse to quote it, and attempt to explain it away.

Liar. He's quoted it MANY times. As has many others who follow this discussion. And another lie.....vs 27 has been EXPLAINED, There ain't one of us little puny humans that can explain AWAY any verse. But you have given your best effort to explain away vs 28!

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Those sheep who hear His voice and follow Him, are those who will receive eternal life.

Sneaky,sneaky little snake.....Those who hear His voice and follow Him..........He GIVES eternal life. Present/active/indicative of 'give'.

I hear His voice and follow Him BOOM...I am a sheep. BOOM I have eternal life and will never perish. Present/active/indicative of "Give" them eternal life.

These don’t get snatched from Him because they listen and obey His voice.

Which is why you will NEVER quote vs 28 when saying this. Vs 28 would add your stipulation.

That is what the word “hear” means in verse 27, to listen with the intent of doing what is heard.

And this is why you ignore vs 9.

Otherwise sheep who do not listen and do what He says, end up wandering away and becoming lost.

And you won't answer this. Why did The Lord Jesus Christ say, " I have found MY sheep." If His lost sheep have become unregenerate and goats again?

Are sheep who become lost still saved or do the lost need salvation?

The real question JLB......Are you one of His sheep or did the Lord Jesus Christ Christ lie to His sheep? If you can perish, you are not one of His sheep. If you claim you are one of His sheep and still hold to the false belief you can perish............The Lord Jesus Christ lied to you.


I am one of his sheep vs 27. He gave me eternal life and the promise to never perish vs 28.

And YES. Sheep who become lost(out of fellowship) are saved. And the lost who NEVER believed are not saved and need to be saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The real question JLB......Are you one of His sheep or did the Lord Jesus Christ Christ lie to His sheep? If you can perish, you are not one of His sheep. If you claim you are one of His sheep and still hold to the false belief you can perish............The Lord Jesus Christ lied to you.

THE question of the day. One that JLB won't answer, because he knows the corner he's in.

As I've also pointed out to him and many others, either eternal security is true, or Jesus LIED in John 10:28. I reject that Jesus ever lied, but it seems the OSNAS crowd doesn't have a problem trying as hard as they can to prove that He lied by showing verses they think teach loss of eternal life, or believers ultimately perishing.

And YES. Sheep who become lost(out of fellowship) are saved. And the lost who NEVER believed are not saved and need to be saved.

And here's another of huge problems within the OSNAS crowd. They have no concept of what fellowship is.

To them, one is either saved or lost. They don't know what fellowship even means, or how it looks. So they can't possibly come close to "rightly divide the word of truth", per 2 Tim 2:15.

 

[JLB777]

Liar. He's quoted it MANY times. As has many others who follow this discussion. And another lie.....vs 27 has been EXPLAINED, There ain't one of us little puny humans that can explain AWAY any verse. But you have given your best effort to explain away vs 28!

Freegrace just states his opinion then tags it with a scripture reference, such As John 10:28.


Then after I call him out a few times he will quote part of John 10:28 by leaving of the first word of that verse, because it ties the previous verse, 27 to it.


He never refers to verse 27, unless he is called out about these things.


Then he attempts to explain away verse 27 as not being relevant as a condition for receiving the promise of verse 28.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Notice the first word in verse 28 is the word “And”?


“And” is a conjunction that connects what was just said, together with what is about to be said.


And very much makes verse 27, relevant to verse 28.


Anyone who says otherwise is the liar.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

I said this:
"There is nothing in John 10:27 that says this opinion of yours. We KNOW who are qualified to be Jesus' sheep. That is found in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Here, Jesus uses the metaphor of entering through a gate (Himself) for faith in who He is and what He has done for mankind individually."

This is directly from post #1568, on page 79:

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

OK, for the color coded explanation.

The red words identify who will be given eternal life.
The blue words are a description of what His sheep DO.
The green words are a statement of the CAUSE of possessing eternal life.
The purple words are a statement of the EFFECT of possessing eternal life.
The brown words is a summary statement of eternal security.

There it is, in FULL COLOR. v.27 identifies the recipients of eternal life.
v.28 is the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

You are free to provide an explanation of how my explanation is incorrect, if you are able to do that.
------------------------------
So, what was your response to my color coded explanation of the 2 verses? This very lame question:
"Then why do you always refuse to quote it, and attempt to explain it away"

First, I directly quoted both verses, so your claim that I "always refuse to quote it" is a total LIE.

And second, if my color coded explanation is nothing more than an "attempt to explain it away", then why aren't you capable of proving your claim and showing how and why that's all I did?

iow, prove that the color coded words DON'T match my explanation.

But, to do that, you'd have to also prove that 1 + 1 = 1 million.


Except you cannot find any words that support your claim in the verse.


Except you cannot find any words that support your claim in the verse


No, hearing is a description of WHAT His sheep DO.


Show me a verse that links not listening and doing with wandering away and becoming lost.

Otherwise, just another man made bit of fluff.


Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

What is clear about His statement is that not perishing is based on being given eternal life. Nothing about any conditions that recipients must fulfill in order to not perish.

You are guilty of adding to Scripture. And being in direct opposition to what Jesus said so very clearly.

So, since you cannot prove in any way that my color coded explanation of v.27 and v.28 is wrong, obviously it isn't wrong.

And my explanation refutes your man made up opinion about the verses.

Eternal life is the result of hearing and following Christ.




JLB

 

[Gr8Grace]

Freegrace just states his opinion then tags it with a scripture reference, such As John 10:28.


Then after I call him out a few times he will quote part of John 10:28 by leaving of the first word of that verse, because it ties the previous verse, 27 to it.


He never refers to verse 27, unless he is called out about these things.


Then he attempts to explain away verse 27 as not being relevant as a condition for receiving the promise of verse 28.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Notice the first word in verse 28 is the word “And”?


“And” is a conjunction that connects what was just said, together with what is about to be said.


And very much makes verse 27, relevant to verse 28.


Anyone who says otherwise is the liar.



JLB

And like I said, and Freegrace has said.........You won't answer the question I asked.

Vs 27 isn't a condition. It describes ME, His sheep. And vs 28 directly applies to me as one of His sheep.........He gave me eternal life and I will never perish.

You cannot call yourself one of His sheep if you can perish.

Are you not one of His sheep or did the Lord Jesus Christ lie? If you claim that your one of The Lord Jesus Christ's sheep.........You believe He lied.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Freegrace just states his opinion then tags it with a scripture reference, such As John 10:28.

Why is it so easy for you to LIE? And lying isn't a characteristic of a believer who is serious about obeying the Lord.

Just look at post #1568 and you will see a full explanation of both John 10:27 and 28, and I even color coded it for ease in following the explanation.

So every time you repeat this LIE of yours about my only giving an opinion without quoting the verse, just remember post #1568.

Then after I call him out a few times he will quote part of John 10:28 by leaving of the first word of that verse, because it ties the previous verse, 27 to it.

You are a proven LIAR, since in post #1568 I quote both v.27 and v.28 and provide a thorough explanation of both verses, with color coding.

So, if you want to argue that I've only given my opinion, now is your big chance to prove yourself by addressing that post and responding to every point I made, by showing how and why my explanation is wrong.

However, since I've requested this of you many times, and you've refused many times, why should anyone expect a change this time?

The point is clear: you have no answer to my explanations because you KNOW that you can't refute them nor prove them wrong.

So you just keep repeating your LIES. Kinda like the devil does.
John 8:44b,45
When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

He never refers to verse 27, unless he is called out about these things.

LIAR. Post #1568 proves you a LIAR.

Then he attempts to explain away verse 27 as not being relevant as a condition for receiving the promise of verse 28.

Post #1568 REFUTES your LIES.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Now, go to post #1568 and respond to my explanation of both verses.

I dare you.

Notice the first word in verse 28 is the word “And”?

“And” is a conjunction that connects what was just said, together with what is about to be said.

It's all explained in posts #1568.

And very much makes verse 27, relevant to verse 28.

Yep. v.27 is the "them" and "they" from v.28

Anyone who says otherwise is the liar.

I've never said v.27 isn't related to v.28. That is just a very stupid claim.

But, let's see if you are brave enough to address post #1568. I doubt it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eternal life is the result of hearing and following Christ.
JLB

How come you've never been able to prove that? And what verse SAYS that hearing and following Christ results in eternal life? John 01:27 surely doesn't say that.

However, all the following verses tells us exactly HOW to have eternal life.
Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Therefore, your opinion is baseless, as far as Scripture is concerned.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Bump.

We need to keep showing believers the truth of eternal security..............The majority are STARVING to death. And the sad fact is............It's by CHOICE.

How can a believer deny John 10:28 and John 5:24 if not by CHOICE?

 

[LightLoveHope]

The problem has always been when believers start saying Jesus is saying this, listen to me, I am right rather than, listen to Jesus, this is what encourages my heart as I follow and obey Him.

Our unity is in our love for the Lord, listening and following Him.
Anything else is literally not the way. And our motivation is our love for Him and the love He has planted in us that flows like a river.

Those who cannot operate from their hearts do not hear Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, John.
These are all men of love and the heart.

One overriding theme I have heard all through my christian life, is skin deep believers and those who speak from who they are. In every church and every assembly you will have both.

So I love John 10:26-28 We are His sheep, we listen to Him and follow Him and love Him and those who follow Him. It is our mark of sealing in Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Like King David, we may stray and get distracted, but our hearts reflect the glory of His work and we continually come back to the source of life, daily and in all we do. This is not a badge of earning or proof of who we are, it is just the reality of being born into the Kingdom, and seeing the Truth, who is Jesus.

The enemy will always come close to these realities and then betray the reality with unbelief.
But because He died and rose again, He has the power to heal and help us walk in His loving ways. We just need to listen to Jesus and all He has shared, Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

How are we secure in the love of Jesus?
By letting our hearts be open and bringing all before Him and accepting His forgiveness.

I found this hard until I saw what He had done on the cross, which made all my efforts at being good and nice like nothing, like a joke, like an ignorant self justification. From then on I just wanted to serve and honour the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, He who has captured my heart and soul.

I have read people feel like this testimony is boasting, rather than a song of Praise.
Does a wife boast of her love for her husband or a husband boast of his love for his wife, or do they just express that which cannot be denied? For those who have not loved, it feels like a challenge to the emptiness within, and at one point I did feel like this. On the other hand it is also shinning a light and saying, this too is possible for anyone, if they bow the knee, repent and listen and follow in His ways, Halleluyah, there is no longer any separation between us and the Father now through Jesus Christ His only Son, forever, Amen.

 

[Hieronymus]

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

This verse states in very clear and plain words that condemnation is for everyone who has not believed the gospel.

but have delighted in wickedness.
That's another premise for condemnation.

The words "have not believed" is in the aorist tense; meaning believed in a point of time. Past time.

I think it's speaking of what is after Judgement.
So this earthly life is then in the past.

The Arminian claim that one must continue to believe in order to avoid hell (losing salvation) is refuted by this verse. If that claim were true, Paul would have written it this way:

"so that all will be condemned who do not continue to believe the truth".

So the aorist tense once again refutes the claim of Arminians.

Hmmm...
Not sure.
"Have not believed" ever? Or eventually? Ultimately?
I mean, when you stop believing you stop believing.
And then you're someone who has not believed.
So it seems logical to have to continue believing in order to be saved.
But if not, that doesn't necessarily mean that you "have delighted in wickedness" either.

In fact, 2 Thess 2:12 parallels both of these verses:

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here's how: Jn 5:24 says those who believe "will not be judged/condemned".

John 10:28 says recipients "of eternal life (believers) shall never perish".

It will be interesting and instructive to see how Arminians, if any do, will respond to this thread.

Hmm.. Maybe i just fail to see your point..

[edit]Sorry, i didn't realise this topic is already over 80 pages long...

 

[FreeGrace2]

The problem has always been when believers start saying Jesus is saying this, listen to me, I am right rather than, listen to Jesus, this is what encourages my heart as I follow and obey Him.

And, there is no problem when someone quotes Jesus verbatim.

So I love John 10:26-28 We are His sheep, we listen to Him and follow Him and love Him and those who follow Him. It is our mark of sealing in Christ and the Holy Spirit.

What is your response to a professing believer who says that some recipients of eternal life CAN perish, because of lifestyle?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

This verse states in very clear and plain words that condemnation is for everyone who has not believed the gospel."

but have delighted in wickedness.
That's another premise for condemnation.

Actually, not "another premise". It's just the "other side of the coin" of "have not believed the truth". For all those who have not believed the truth actually DO delight in wickedness.

Remember how Jesus described the legalists in Matt 7:21-23, in spite of all the good works they did, even in His Name. He called them workers of iniquity.

Why? Because all their efforts were from the flesh. Since they had based their entrance into the kingdom on works, rather than on the perfect work of Christ on the cross for their sins, all their works are as "filthy rags", meaning used menstrual rags. Ugg.

It is only works done in the Spirit that count as "good works". Everything else is wickedness, since such works are done in the hope or expectation of pleasing God.

And 'without faith, God is not pleased'. Heb 11:6

I think it's speaking of what is after Judgement.
So this earthly life is then in the past.Hmmm...
Not sure.
"Have not believed" ever? Or eventually? Ultimately?
I mean, when you stop believing you stop believing.

Seriously? Do you not understand what the past tense communicates? It means NEVER believed. Clearly.

So, 2 Thess 2:12 and John 3:18 both say that condemnation is for those having NEVER believed.

If one ever does believe, and then at a later time, ceases to believe, just like the example Jesus gave of the second soil in Luke 8:13, it CANNOT be said of them that they never believed. Because they HAD believed at one time.

And then you're someone who has not believed.

No, you are someone who is not believing.

So it seems logical to have to continue believing in order to be saved.

It it's so "logical", why doesn't the Bible make that statement anywhere?

But if not, that doesn't necessarily mean that you "have delighted in wickedness" either.

Yes it does, as I have pointed out.

Hmm.. Maybe i just fail to see your point..

Yes, that's the grade I would give your assessment.

[edit]Sorry, i didn't realise this topic is already over 80 pages long...

No problem. I'm always happy to correct errors on the subject.

 

[Hieronymus]

I said:
"2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

This verse states in very clear and plain words that condemnation is for everyone who has not believed the gospel."

So you just drop the rest of the sentence?

Actually, not "another premise". It's just the "other side of the coin" of "have not believed the truth". For all those who have not believed the truth actually DO delight in wickedness.

How can you be so sure?
What if someone does not believe the Gospel, while this person is a law abiding citizen and never indulged and thus never delighted in wickedness?
What is wickedness?
Do you need examples?
Is it the same as breaking some rules like having lied a few times or having taken something that wasn't theirs?
And maybe they were sorry or remorseful afterwards.
That's not "delighting in wickedness"
There are of course people who really do delight in wickedness.
Killing, raping, trafficking children, raping children, destroying countries, misleading people, well, etcetera...
All for money and power or feelings of empowerment, delighted with their ways.

So there's a difference between not believing the Gospel and delighting in wickedness.
But both are mentioned as premises.

Remember how Jesus described the legalists in Matt 7:21-23, in spite of all the good works they did, even in His Name. He called them workers of iniquity.

Why? Because all their efforts were from the flesh. Since they had based their entrance into the kingdom on works, rather than on the perfect work of Christ on the cross for their sins, all their works are as "filthy rags", meaning used menstrual rags. Ugg.

Yes, but did they delight in wickedness?
Maybe, maybe not.

It is only works done in the Spirit that count as "good works". Everything else is wickedness, since such works are done in the hope or expectation of pleasing God.

No, i don't think that's actual wickedness.
Wickedness is doing wicked things.
Delighting in it is even a step further.

And 'without faith, God is not pleased'. Heb 11:6


Seriously? Do you not understand what the past tense communicates? It means NEVER believed. Clearly.

So, 2 Thess 2:12 and John 3:18 both say that condemnation is for those having NEVER believed.

So you propose that it doesn't matter if someone who once believed the Gospel to be true, ever changes his / her mind and disbeliefs the Gospel (for whatever reason)?

If one ever does believe, and then at a later time, ceases to believe, just like the example Jesus gave of the second soil in Luke 8:13, it CANNOT be said of them that they never believed. Because they HAD believed at one time.

So if a child believes the Gospel, because he / she was taught it was the truth, but later in life chose to follow the flesh and dismiss God and maybe went out to 'delight in wickedness', like raping children for kicks, will be considered to be "someone who has believed"?

No, you are someone who is not believing.

Yes, but eventually you'll be reckoned as someone who has not believed, because that's what you grew into.
Or let's turn it around then.
Someone who had not believed the Gospel for most of his / her life, only to come to the Faith shortly before death knocked on their door.
That's also someone who has not believed. But they die as a believer.
Isn't it a matter of on what path you are when your life is over?
Of course it is.
Otherwise we'd all be doomed, because nobody was born a convinced Christian.
Or at least people who found the truth late in life would be doomed, because they had not believed, according to your logic.

It it's so "logical", why doesn't the Bible make that statement anywhere?

It does state that.
The path is narrow and it's important to (try to) stay on that path.
Also we are to repent and turn from the flesh and towards God.
Not just for a few years, but for the rest of your life.
Life is about dying in the Faith.
Even if you previously were an unbeliever and perhaps even delighted in wickedness.
We shall live when we turn to God AND stay the course.

Yes it does, as I have pointed out.

No you haven't.
You just say it is so.

Yes, that's the grade I would give your assessment.

I bet you would.
But it turns out your point is rather weak.

No problem. I'm always happy to correct errors on the subject.

I bet you are.
But you didn't correct anything.

[EDIT (add it)]
I find this very strange.
You seem to be intelligent, but you make very little sense (at least, to me).
Now i have a question, because i'm trying to understand.
Do you have a need to (in your mind) justify that unbelievers will end up in eternal conscious torment? (eternal life without Christ)
That would explain why you insist on making "not believing" equal to "delighting in wickedness".

But that still doesn't explain your view on what "not having believed" means...

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you just drop the rest of the sentence?

No. My whole post was quite clear.

How can you be so sure?

I'm sure of what 2 Thess 2:12 says. What are you not sure of?

What if someone does not believe the Gospel, while this person is a law abiding citizen and never indulged and thus never delighted in wickedness?

I suggest you review my previous explanation of what "wickedness" includes, including what the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 claimed they did, and how Jesus described what they did.

What is wickedness?

Seriously? Sin. Which is missing the mark, literally.

Do you need examples?

No, thank you. I have plenty enough.

Is it the same as breaking some rules like having lied a few times or having taken something that wasn't theirs?

Those things are included.

And maybe they were sorry or remorseful afterwards.

So what?

That's not "delighting in wickedness"

I'm sure the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 delighted in all the things they had done in Jesus' name. They even thought they were earning a place in heaven based on what they had done. Yet Jesus described them as "workers of iniquity" (wickedness).

There are of course people who really do delight in wickedness.

There are all kinds, for sure.

Killing, raping, trafficking children, raping children, destroying countries, misleading people, well, etcetera...
All for money and power or feelings of empowerment, delighted with their ways.

These, too, are included in wickedness.

So there's a difference between not believing the Gospel and delighting in wickedness.

You are free to assume so.

But both are mentioned as premises.

You are free to assume so.

Yes, but did they delight in wickedness?

Even the most self righteous legalist who seems to never do anything out of line delights in their own righteousness.

I referenced Isa 64:6 in my previous explanation. Here is the verse:
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags (used menstrual rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Do you understand what this verse is saying about our own acts of righteousness?

Maybe, maybe not.No, i don't think that's actual wickedness.
Wickedness is doing wicked things.

Anything that is not of faith is SIN.

Rom 14:23 - But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

So even outwardly moral actions are wicked when they are done in the hopes of being rewarded by God.

The only righteousness that impresses God is the perfect righteousness of His Son, and the righteousness that is imputed (credited) to those who believe in His Son.

Somehow, I get the impression that you are not aware of any of these things that I explain.

Delighting in it is even a step further.So you propose that it doesn't matter if someone who once believed the Gospel to be true, ever changes his / her mind and disbeliefs the Gospel (for whatever reason)?So if a child believes the Gospel, because he / she was taught it was the truth, but later in life chose to follow the flesh and dismiss God and maybe went out to 'delight in wickedness', like raping children for kicks, will be considered to be "someone who has believed"?Yes, but eventually you'll be reckoned as someone who has not believed, because that's what you grew into.

Apparently words don't really mean much to you then.

The words "have not believed" mean exactly that: have NEVER believed. If you don't agree, then it's just useless to continue this discussion because you don't understand the meaning of words. "have not believed" is a PAST TENSE issue. It means to have NEVER believed up to this point.

Or let's turn it around then.
Someone who had not believed the Gospel for most of his / her life, only to come to the Faith shortly before death knocked on their door.

Then it cannot be said that they 'have not believed', since they now HAVE believed.

That's also someone who has not believed. But they die as a believer.

Which ends all argument. They now HAVE believed. So from that point on, it CANNOT be said that they NEVER believed, since they HAVE believed.

Isn't it a matter of on what path you are when your life is over?

Actually, no. And it's rather strange that someone who professes to be a believer would even think that.

Here is what Jesus said about those who have believed:
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish". John 10:28

Now, if your assumption or presumption were true, this is what He WOULD HAVE HAD to say:
"I give them eternal life, and AS LONG AS they stay on the right path, they shall never perish."

Or, "I give them eternal life, and IF they stay on the right path, they shall never perish."

I hope you noticed the red bolded words. These are conditional clauses that mean that one MUST fulfill that condition in order for the result to occur.

But Jesus didn't include your presumptions into His statement.

The fact is clear; those who have been given the gift of eternal life shall never perish.

I said this:
"It it's so "logical", why doesn't the Bible make that statement anywhere?"

It does state that.

It is easy to make such a claim. It's quite another thing to provide actual evidence for your claim. I directly challenged you to provide evidence, yet all you did was come up with this lame comment about "yes it does". And with no evidence.

The path is narrow and it's important to (try to) stay on that path.

Yes, I agree. It is very important to stay on that path. But not to stay saved, or to maintain your salvation.

Also we are to repent and turn from the flesh and towards God.

Yep. It's a command.

Not just for a few years, but for the rest of your life.

Yep again.

Life is about dying in the Faith.

Actually, life is about doing God's will. Where in the Bible do you think your claim is stated?

Even if you previously were an unbeliever and perhaps even delighted in wickedness.
We shall live when we turn to God AND stay the course.

OK, there's another of your presumptions that are NOT found in the Bible. I suggest that you stop making up stuff.

I find this very strange.
You seem to be intelligent, but you make very little sense (at least, to me).

I am getting that same impression. As though you have no clue as to what I am saying.

Now i have a question, because i'm trying to understand.
Do you have a need to (in your mind) justify that unbelievers will end up in eternal conscious torment? (eternal life without Christ)

The Bible states clearly that the lake of fire will be everlasting torment.

Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Now, in the same context, we read v.11-15:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

It would be foolish to claim that human beings in the lake of fire won't suffer the same everlasting torment as the devil, beast and false prophet.

That would explain why you insist on making "not believing" equal to "delighting in wickedness".

No it wouldn't. But I've explained in clear terms why lack of faith (not believing) is equal to delighting in wickedness.

But that still doesn't explain your view on what "not having believed" means...

How sad. It means exactly what is says. To have not believed is to have never believed.

I believe that everyone in whom English is their native language easily understands this.

What is your native language?

 

[JLB777]

Bump.

We need to keep showing believers the truth of eternal security..............The majority are STARVING to death. And the sad fact is............It's by CHOICE.

How can a believer deny John 10:28 and John 5:24 if not by CHOICE?

What about The truth of John 10:27?

I notice you and FG never mention the context of John 10:28 nor do you post scripture unless you are called out about it.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Sheep who hear and obey what is heard, are those who follow Him, and inherit eternal life.


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29




How about the context of John 5:24 which shows us the truth?


Scripture reference with no scripture is how false teachers hid their heretical teachings.


“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:24-29

• all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,

• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB

 

[Gr8Grace]

What about The truth of John 10:27?

Well, it sure seems that you don't know about the truth and context of John 10:27.
John 10:1~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

3“To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.4“When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

9“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

I am one of His sheep. He knows me. I hear Him. I follow Him.

Are you one of His Sheep?

Some don't understand this because....
6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.

I notice you and FG never mention the context of John 10:28 nor do you post scripture unless you are called out about it.

It would be nice if you would be honest for once.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

I am one of His Sheep. I have eternal life and will never perish.
John 6:47~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:11~~New American Standard Bible
And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

Sheep who hear and obey what is heard, are those who follow Him, and inherit eternal life.

Sneaky snake.
John 10:28~~New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

John 6:47~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

How about the context of John 5:24 which shows us the truth?


Scripture reference with no scripture is how false teachers hid their heretical teachings.


“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:24-29

• all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,

• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB

To bad you have no clue about believers receiving a glorified body and unbelievers resurrected with a body that can endure suffering.

Anyway, John 5:24 is the same principle as John 10:27-28.

Are you one of His sheep? Or did The Lord Jesus Christ lie to His sheep? John 10:27-28

and

Do you hear His word and believe in Him? Or did the Lord Jesus Christ lie to you when He said you HAVE eternal life?

I will explain this to you.

If you claim that you are a sheep. If you claim you hear His Word and believe in Him. You are calling The Lord Jesus Christ a liar if you believe you can perish and don't have eternal life.