2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[LightLoveHope]

It would be foolish to claim that human beings in the lake of fire won't suffer the same everlasting torment as the devil, beast and false prophet.

Here we have a crux of a failure of understanding.
Paul talked of his rebellion in being a jew and persecuting the church was out of ignorance

Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
1 Tim 1:13

The apostles talked about those who were no longer ignorant and who had faith but chose a different road, that they were guilty without a way out.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Heb 6:4-6

Now to equate unbelievers with the devil, the beast and the false prophet is simply not biblical. If this was so no one could be saved, because the rebellion of the devil is complete and unredeemable.

So in ones theology either sinners born in sin can be saved because of their ignorance and unbelief, yet if they rebel in openness, they are truly lost or if they are like the devil, they can never be saved. It is why I cannot see babies or those born into sin without awareness or moral responsibility are either in heaven or in torment.
If one believes all are eternal, eternally in punishment or heaven, then one has a dilemma. Why? God makes us eternal because we have fellowship with Him, not eternal from being mortal because we are in rebellion. Equally the term second death, has the clue in the word, death. Death is not consciousness, or pain, or anything other than ceasing to be alive, or having bodily form.

So those who claim they are serious about eternity, yet cannot consider the obvious issues of justice and awareness, maybe Christ, His words and His intentions mean little as well. Only those with open hearts, where love dwells will see as Christ sees for in His light we know His truth, Amen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What about The truth of John 10:27?

I notice you and FG never mention the context of John 10:28 nor do you post scripture unless you are called out about it.

Do you really think that LYING is cute?

From my post #1703, which is on this page above:
"you said:↑
Then why do you always refuse to quote it, and attempt to explain it away."

I responded:
"This is directly from post #1568, on page 79:

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

OK, for the color coded explanation.

The red words identify who will be given eternal life.
The blue words are a description of what His sheep DO.
The green words are a statement of the CAUSE of possessing eternal life.
The purple words are a statement of the EFFECT of possessing eternal life.
The brown words is a summary statement of eternal security.

There it is, in FULL COLOR. v.27 identifies the recipients of eternal life.
v.28 is the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

You are free to provide an explanation of how my explanation is incorrect, if you are able to do that.

So, what was your response to my color coded explanation of the 2 verses? This very lame question:
"Then why do you always refuse to quote it, and attempt to explain it away"

First, I directly quoted both verses, so your claim that I "always refuse to quote it" is a total LIE.

And second, if my color coded explanation is nothing more than an "attempt to explain it away", then why aren't you capable of proving your claim and showing how and why that's all I did?

iow, prove that the color coded words DON'T match my explanation.

But, to do that, you'd have to also prove that 1 + 1 = 1 million."

So, in 2 posts (1568 and 1703) I gave you a full color explanation of BOTH verses. Yet you continue to LIE your head off by saying that I never address v.27.

What is your problem, anyway?
Instead of simply addressing either post, and explaining how and why my full color coded explanation cannot be correct, all you do is continue to resort to LYING.

Aren't you the one who quotes Rev 21:8 as ways believers CAN perish?
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Well, the red words sure do describe you. So you've only condemned yourself by your own posts.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Sheep who hear and obey what is heard, are those who follow Him, and inherit eternal life.

Your statement does NOTHING to refute my full color coded explanation of BOTH verses.

But you can't do better than simply repeat yourself. You don't know how to defend your own views or refute the views of others.

The TRUTH always refutes LIES. Always.

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29

If you take this verse to mean "how to obtain eternal life and go to heaven", you couldn't be more wrong.

How about the context of John 5:24 which shows us the truth?

The context? Do you really think that other verses changes the plain meaning of v.24?

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

How about some more full color coded explanation?

The red words identify possessors of eternal life.
The blue words indicate what believers possess in the present tense.
The green words indicate what has already occurred back WHEN they believed.
The purple words indicate what is guaranteed not to occur in the future.
The green words indicate why believers won't be judged.

Now, please proceed to address my full color explanation and prove that my points are incorrect, wrong, in error, etc.

Scripture reference with no scripture is how false teachers hid their heretical teachings.

This is one of the most lame excuses for not addressing another poster there is.

If you only cited a reference and made a false point, I would EASILY quote the cited verse and prove that your point is false.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:24-29

The plain and clear words of v.24 don't magically go away or change in meaning by anything else in the Bible.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Are those saved who have the words and the promises yet can never live it, or those who live it because of the words and the promises?

Praise the Lord, His sheep listen to Him and follow Him, not strangers.
Yet the testing of who we are and how we walk appears constant. Do we really know our foundation and what matters to us above all else.

Many think that it is the catching the glimpse of the truth that makes us real, rather than the becoming part of the truth and the walk Jesus showed us by example, and empowers us through the Holy Spirit.

In our struggles the magical is easier to believe how we will become something we are not, rather than Christ will lead us through the way. Those caught at the beginning, not able to see the reality within or the truth without, it is easier to hold to it will just be bandaged up and put right.

Paul says sow to the Spirit, walk in His ways and to put to death the ways of the flesh, and you will reap eternal life.

The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Gal 6:8

It is odd to me, that this clear fruit of the walk of life is thought of as earning salvation rather than what salvation actually is. The walk is the walk of life, it is the fulfilment of all Gods revelation and what being in the Kingdom is all about.

In the end, the lost are lost, so to the living I say, listen and know Jesus, He is our Lord and Saviour, the one of promise and life. Learn how to love from the heart and choose love above all else and He will be with us, amen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here we have a crux of a failure of understanding.
Paul talked of his rebellion in being a jew and persecuting the church was out of ignorance

Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
1 Tim 1:13

The apostles talked about those who were no longer ignorant and who had faith but chose a different road, that they were guilty without a way out.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Heb 6:4-6

Now to equate unbelievers with the devil, the beast and the false prophet is simply not biblical. If this was so no one could be saved, because the rebellion of the devil is complete and unredeemable.

So in ones theology either sinners born in sin can be saved because of their ignorance and unbelief, yet if they rebel in openness, they are truly lost or if they are like the devil, they can never be saved. It is why I cannot see babies or those born into sin without awareness or moral responsibility are either in heaven or in torment.
If one believes all are eternal, eternally in punishment or heaven, then one has a dilemma. Why? God makes us eternal because we have fellowship with Him, not eternal from being mortal because we are in rebellion. Equally the term second death, has the clue in the word, death. Death is not consciousness, or pain, or anything other than ceasing to be alive, or having bodily form.

So those who claim they are serious about eternity, yet cannot consider the obvious issues of justice and awareness, maybe Christ, His words and His intentions mean little as well. Only those with open hearts, where love dwells will see as Christ sees for in His light we know His truth, Amen.

Sorry, but I really don't see any point in your post, so I cannot respond to any of it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Are those saved who have the words and the promises yet can never live it, or those who live it because of the words and the promises?

This very question reveals the very faulty thought process that has overcome you.

Those who are saved are those who have believed that Jesus saves them because He died for them. But you keep wanting to put lifestyle in the equation.

Lifestyle equals works, like it or not. We are not saved on the basis of works, but on the basis of grace. Do you understand the difference between grace and works? Then explain the difference.

 

[LightLoveHope]

A strange reality. If a believer says they know the Lord, yet cannot walk in the way of love, what are they? And how can those who do not know love, know how to judge others, either in love or with love?

So it is strange how some claim to know Christ, yet on their declaration if one does not agree with their interpretation one is lost and following the enemy.

What did Jesus say,
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another
John 13:35

It has always been the love that shows His people, that gives hope and spreads life.
Those who do not know this love or how to walk in it, can claim whatever they like, but in the end, it does not matter. Our hope simply rests in Jesus and following Him in His way. Amen

 

[LightLoveHope]

This very question reveals the very faulty thought process that has overcome you.

There is never a correct or false thought process, just our hearts, and our fellowship with the King. Everything we think is molded by our hearts and how we approve or disapprove of behaviours, truths and realities in the world. Only when we dwell in Christ, healed, loving and made whole in Him, does the truth become clear.

We put so much between God and us, while He through Christ declares He is here to be our friend, our King and our redeemer. We expect things will be so different, yet He walked in righteousness and perfection on earth with man. Rather it is us, who do not see God clearly, or His redemption and His love.

How often do we dismiss the very people who carry Christs love, and His blessing, talking as if we know better, and have proven true in our lives, not knowing the walk of others.

So no wonder that legalists want to exclude people so quickly, and then when overthrown, so quickly condemn others as enemies without even knowing them. It matters little, because the Lord testifies despite the failures of those who do not see, hear or understand.

Jesus said "Good and faithful servant" or "I never knew you"
To know someone is to know their heart and find agreement in this.
No wonder those with a closed heart seek security in anything but their heart.

 

[Gr8Grace]

So it is strange how some claim to know Christ, yet

Don't believe what He says........
John 10:28~~New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

1 Pet 1:4~~New American Standard Bible
to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

So it is strange how some claim to know Christ, yet

Believe that Gods seal can be broken....

John 6:27~~New American Standard Bible
"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

 

[LightLoveHope]

Gods seal? A seal is something that can always be broken but defines the authority by which it is given.

Seals have always been a sign not a reality. Customs seal a container so if it is broken into it is known about. Food is sealed to stop it going off and guaranteeing its quality.

So when God seals us, if we break the seal, we are contaminated and lost.
So God putting a seal on us, could actually be taken to mean the opposite of what some want it to mean.

Now language has meaning because of its cultural understanding. So when Paul says we are sealed, he is meaning it in the culture of authority and set apart, but never that the seal cannot be illegally broken, but that God takes seriously the gift and authority He has given. But there are those who break the seal, desecrate Gods holy temple, and then claim the seal is still complete and undefiled. Is God really like this, or rather saying He will honour those who honour their sealing in Him.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Gods seal? A seal is something that can always be broken

John 6:27~~New American Standard Bible
"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

 

[EmSw]

John 6:27~~New American Standard Bible
"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

This seal is only for those who WORK for the food which ENDURES to eternal life.

 

[LightLoveHope]

John 6:27~~New American Standard Bible
"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

John is writing, God has given Jesus His authority, His seal, His mark of representation, power, knowledge.

When a messenger would come to a leader, a commander, a ruler, they would look at the seal of authority on the message. If it was the Kings mark, they would show it respect, because it carried their authority and by this, their power and vengance if it was ignored. Seals matter.

To ignore the message of the King is a capital crime. But then for those who do not recognise the seal of the Almighty on His word and His love given in His son upon the cross, little wonder they believe in a mystical meaning behind the word seal, and not its obvious meaning of authority and message. When the shadows pass and all will become light, pity them on that day, when they overthrew the Kings words for the excuses of sin and rebellion and claimed this was the message of the King, with seals that could not be broken or defiled, while they were doing exactly that at the very same time.

We are Gods light in human form, the work of His hands in our hearts, the power of the cross made manifest, the victory He provides through His power.

 

[FreeGrace2]

A strange reality. If a believer says they know the Lord, yet cannot walk in the way of love, what are they? And how can those who do not know love, know how to judge others, either in love or with love?

Aiming your posts at me without admitting so is hardly helpful. And my whole point has been about the pitfalls of EMOTIONS, which you have quite remarkably demonstrated.

Your comments insinuate that I "cannot walk in the way of love", yet you know nothing of me, other than the fact that I've called you out on your false doctrine. And that, btw, IS a demonstration of love. It's ALWAYS loving to try to help fellow believers to understand Scripture properly.

So it is strange how some claim to know Christ, yet on their declaration if one does not agree with their interpretation one is lost and following the enemy.

It seems you really don't understand the problem of believing UNBIBLICAL ideas.

What did Jesus say,
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another
John 13:35

When believers demonstrate love (sometimes tough love) to others, it does show that they follow Christ.

It has always been the love that shows His people, that gives hope and spreads life.

No, it's not "love" that gives hope. Are you kidding? Biblical "hope" in the Greek means "confident expectation". Today, people use the word "hope" to mean "wishful thinking".

So the Greek is a huge difference from how it's used today.

And biblical hope is eternal security, something you don't believe in, even though Jesus taught it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is never a correct or false thought process, just our hearts, and our fellowship with the King.

It is precisely these kind of comments that demonstrate how off track you are.

To say "there is never a correct or false thought process" is just nuts. And to put one's "heart" above truth is just as nuts. You're so emotionally tied up you can't see straight.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Gods seal? A seal is something that can always be broken but defines the authority by which it is given.

This is more nonsense. Eph 1:13,14 isn't referring to some cheap object that we use to seal things. How silly.

Seals have always been a sign not a reality. Customs seal a container so if it is broken into it is known about. Food is sealed to stop it going off and guaranteeing its quality.

This, again, demonstrates your total ignorance of what the Bible teaches.

Eph 1:13 tells us plainly Who the seal is: the Holy Spirit Himself. And you have the gall to claim seals are only a "sign, not a reality". That is delusional.

So when God seals us, if we break the seal, we are contaminated and lost.

So, this is what you must conclude from your statement:
Human beings have the power/authority to "break the Holy Spirit", who IS our seal.

So, please explain this nutty idea about how any human being can "break the Holy Spirit". Oh, and, while you're at it, provide some clear verses that speak directly to this idea of yours.

So God putting a seal on us, could actually be taken to mean the opposite of what some want it to mean.

First, God never put His seal "on us". He puts the Holy Spirit IN us. So, your ignorance is showing again.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This seal is only for those who WORK for the food which ENDURES to eternal life.

Hey, why don't you figure out Jesus' answer to the Jews question about WORK in John 6?

Jesus noted the crowd's interest in more literal food:
26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.
27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

So the crowd responded with this question:
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Note Jesus' answer:
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

They were focused on what God REQUIRES. Jesus told them plainly, "to believe in the One He has sent".

From other verses, we know that whoever believes in Him possesses eternal life: John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13.

We also know that Jesus is the One who gives eternal life: John 10:28.

 

[EmSw]

Hey, why don't you figure out Jesus' answer to the Jews question about WORK in John 6?

Jesus noted the crowd's interest in more literal food:
26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.
27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

So the crowd responded with this question:
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Note Jesus' answer:
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

They were focused on what God REQUIRES. Jesus told them plainly, "to believe in the One He has sent".

From other verses, we know that whoever believes in Him possesses eternal life: John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13.

We also know that Jesus is the One who gives eternal life: John 10:28.

What you miss is the work in verse 29 is the work of God; the work of man is in verse 27.

We also know this from Jesus -

John 6
53 Jesus therefore said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves.
54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me.
58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven: not as the fathers ate, and died; he that eateth this bread shall live for ever.

What food should we work for? Do you have any idea? Only those who eat this food have eternal life. Only those who eat the flesh of Jesus live forever. Until you eat His flesh and drink His blood, you do not have life in yourself, and are not raised up at the last day.

This is how Jesus gives eternal life, and it's only to those who believe Him and do what He says.

 

[Gr8Grace]

If it was the Kings mark, they would show it respect, because it carried their authority and by this, their power and vengance if it was ignored. Seals matter.

Right. This is why believers who don't respect Gods authority and power in sealing believers and equate it to a wax seal on an envelope that can be broken.........are out of fellowship.

And they are out of fellowship with the very seal God used......the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13~New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

~promise~
epaggelia: a summons, a promise
Original Word: ἐπαγγελία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: epaggelia
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ang-el-ee'-ah)
Definition: a summons, a promise
Usage: a promise.

Guaranteed by His own eternal being.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What you miss is the work in verse 29 is the work of God; the work of man is in verse 27.

Nope. Got it wrong again.

The "work" that God requires is to believe on His Son. That is perfectly clear.

We also know this from Jesus -

John 6
53 Jesus therefore said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves.
54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me.
58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven: not as the fathers ate, and died; he that eateth this bread shall live for ever.

What food should we work for? Do you have any idea? Only those who eat this food have eternal life. Only those who eat the flesh of Jesus live forever. Until you eat His flesh and drink His blood, you do not have life in yourself, and are not raised up at the last day.

This is how Jesus gives eternal life, and it's only to those who believe Him and do what He says.

So, go ahead and just ignore John 5:24 and 6:47 where He plainly says that whoever believes POSSESSES (in the present tense) eternal life.

Jesus gives eternal life (John 10:28) on the basis of faith in Himself.

The passage you quoted is exactly about that. Eating and drinking here is the same as drinking in John 4. They are not literal, if you think so. They are metaphors for believing in Christ.

The same as John 10:9, about "entering through Me (the gate) and being saved".

 

[LightLoveHope]

Mystical eternal making into the people of heaven.

Let us compare ideas.
1. God makes us His children, eternal, forever, never to be disowned or caste aside, except we have free will and will be judged for unbelief and sin.
2. God makes us His children who walk in fellowship and love of Him, who could freely walk away, except His children choose not to because they are His children and not fake.

As a sign of the reality of being His children we have the seal of its reality, the Holy Spirit.

Now one can simply say signs are signs of something and not the reality, the reality produces the sign. But no some want to say the sign itself is the reality, and is eternal if only passing. Now if you want to believe a rich man is eternally rich because once for one day they earnt a lot, then that is simply a lie. A rich man is a rich man because he continues to be a rich man. A poor man is a poor man because he is poor. He may have been a rich man, but as he is now poor, he is still just a poor man.

Somehow they want dream land of the taste of heaven to mean they are now eternal which is just the delusion of those who want something that does not represent where they are today. Better that they experience the riches of Gods grace today and continue to walk in it until they meet Him so their faith is not in vain, as Paul said. But unfortunately, they would rather deny the truth of the walk for the lie that the walk means nothing, just tasting something is the reality. It is like the heroin addict as he dies of an overdose thinking he is still a normal person with an unfortunate habit which actually makes no difference, except ofcourse it has destroyed everything in their lives and is taking the very thing they own, their life and choices to the grave. I have met people like this, lost with the dream of who they once were, which has now died.