2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

Hello my friend,

I have demonstrated to you how a person with an open heart expresses their love for Christ and His people, the desire to walk in Gods will and to know His power in them.

Please don't talk about any such "desire to walk in God's will and to know His power in them" when:
1. you have clearly shown that you have no idea how to utilize His power
2. you have directly OPPOSED the teaching of Jesus on eternal security.

Your claims ring hollow.

Yet for a belief in security above anything else you would call this evil, satanic and wrong.

It's NOT "above anything else". But it IS THE TRUTH, and you keep denying that truth.

And that doesn't seem to bother you. Why is that?

And the proof that this has taken place is emotional flow in an appropriate way.

I've seen your "emotional flow already, in post #1613. And it basically ruined your life for a year.

Paul put it like this

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Ephesians 5:1-5

Are you not aware of the fact that 'agape' isn't emotional?

The problem is this life is obviously not something you experience, or else you would agree with me, and secondly your belief in security cuts you off from its fulfilment through unbelief.

This is delusional.

You do not believe Jesus can bring you into His likeness, for you to be an open loving individual with your emotions fully expressed giving glory to Christ.

Again, your attempt at judging what I do and do not believe FAILS miserably.

But I guess you'll just keep trying and failing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Shutting God out through unbelief

Yes, that's what happens when one directly and unapologetically OPPOSES the teaching of Christ on eternal security.

Ironically those who close their heart to God, saying their hearts are desperately wicked are living in unbelief while claiming they know Jesus and have His truth.

Now you're talking about yourself. I do hope you are actually paying attention.

For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'
Mark 7:21-23

Unbelief is always evil.

The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
Luke 6:45

Good men don't directly OPPOSE what Jesus taught.

The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1 Tim 1:5

Love is NOT an emotion but an action.

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.
For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:5-11

Your single obsession with your feelings and emotions prevents you from being able to add to your faith KNOWLEDGE.

Those who live in a world where Jesus cannot cleanse them and they cannot walk in the way of Jesus, live in unbelief while claiming followers of Jesus are evil and following the enemy trying to prove their worth, rather than believing in Jesus, when the reverse is actually true.

OK, let's do a pop quiz right about now. Please answer this question:

How does Jesus cleanse the believer so the believer can continue to walk in the way of Jesus?

btw, those who directly OPPOSE the teaching of Jesus are "living in unbelief".

They do not believe Jesus and refuse to obey.

You have described yourself to a T.

 

[LightLoveHope]

You have described yourself to a T.

I expected you to say this. But funnily it made me realise you fulfil your own criticism of others. Those who accuse others of unbelief, it is their unbelief that leads them to defeat.

The argument line is normally, you are a sinner who wants self righteousness to earn forgiveness from God.

The distortion is devaluing righteous walking into self righteousness.
Faith is exalted into a magic ticket into heaven with no conditions or refusal.

And the whole theology is based on people being unable to walk like Jesus.

In faith through the cross Jesus provides forgiveness of sins and purity.
But this purity and cleansing takes effort and a walk.

Though Paul, Peter, James, John all testify to this, it is just ignored in preference for the sacrifice of Jesus. So what should be the source of freedom, becomes the excuse for bondage to sin, and a conflicted and unresolved heart.

And any scripture I provide which shows salvation is not certain, because it is our walk and relationship, is simple ignored.

No wonder entering heaven is so hard, and the path is narrow, because it is easy to get it all wrong if our hearts are not cleansed first.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Please don't talk about any such "desire to walk in God's will and to know His power in them" when:
1. you have clearly shown that you have no idea how to utilize His power
2. you have directly OPPOSED the teaching of Jesus on eternal security.

Your claims ring hollow.

I wish you knew what it was to evangelise. Because you would destroy anyones heart who desires to share something they care and deeply honour.

Your line of argument would be, You know Jesus but the way you share about security in Jesus is wrong, so it is all a lie.

No wonder evangelists never preach like you do, because they would never bring anyone to Christ through repentance and faith.

But then your faith is the faith of apostate believers trying to justify their return to Christ without actually obeying Him.

 

[JLHargus]

[Hb6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.]

If OSAS why warn believing Christians against falling away if it can't happen? How can non-believers fall away from something they didn't have? How could non-believers be renewed to something they haven't first possessed, they can't. They simply remain dead in their fallen state, So we agree Hb6:4-6 is addressing saved born again Christian Jews

What you seem to misunderstand is that falling away from the faith is NOT the same as losing salvation. That is just a common misconception.

If ceasing to believe leads a saved person to lose salvation, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 CANNOT BE TRUE, because He gave no conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish.

iow, the ONLY condition for not perishing is to receive eternal life. That's what Jesus meant in John 10:28.

JL: If falling away from the faith is NOT the same as losing salvation, what is this falling away that is so serious as to crucify the Son of God afresh?

 

[LightLoveHope]

Unbelief is always evil.

If you believe this, then why do you not believe the Lord can deal with your heart and bring order to your emotional life?

Unbelief is not a sin.
Committing evil acts is.

Nineveh were judged for their behaviour and the suffering it caused, not because they did not believe in God.

Not believing in God is the excuse or cause of evil behaviour.
Because people think God does not see them, they commit evil deeds.

They pour out arrogant words; all the evildoers are full of boasting.
They crush your people, O LORD; they oppress your inheritance.
They slay the widow and the alien; they murder the fatherless.
Psalm 94:4-6

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.
Psalm 14:1-3

Saying there is no God is not the problem, it is their behaviour.
The source of love and righteousness starts to flow when we gain communion with God.

This is where the lies start. People will say evil is getting the beliefs wrong, and then one loses forgiveness. It assumes all are lost and stay lost no matter the revelation or gifting by God. So the only difference between believer and non-believer is belief.

Jesus promises the Kingdom of Heaven through the Holy Spirit. God in our hearts, God communing with man. Once this relationship is devalued to a distant reality, to a sinner walking only in appearance like a saint but not in reality, all truth is lost.

And those claiming Jesus's promise are hypocrites claiming the impossible. But praise the Lord that Jesus's promise of victory is what He delivers, Amen.

And this is the point. If you keep a closed heart you lock Jesus out, and He can not save or transform you, because you are rebelling against His presence.

 

[Gr8Grace]

JL: If falling away from the faith is NOT the same as losing salvation, what is this falling away that is so serious as to crucify the Son of God afresh?

One example would be a believer who says, "we can lose salvation." Pretty much the epitome of falling away from the faith and crucifying Him afresh. Any believer who thinks salvation can be lost, is comparable to the believing Jews who went back to the daily sacrifices(Crucify Him Afresh) to maintain or keep their salvation.

Heb 7:27~~New American Standard Bible
who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

If we believe that His salvation of us can be lost......we have fallen from the faith and have crucified Him afresh.

 

[LightLoveHope]

One example would be a believer who says, "we can lose salvation." Pretty much the epitome of falling away from the faith and crucifying Him afresh. Any believer who thinks salvation can be lost, is comparable to the believing Jews who went back to the daily sacrifices(Crucify Him Afresh) to maintain or keep their salvation.

Heb 7:27~~New American Standard Bible
who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

If we believe that His salvation of us can be lost......we have fallen from the faith and have crucified Him afresh.

This kind of logic is an inversion of what is happening.
A living thing can die. Something that is safe but has real responsibilities and dangers, can also be destroyed.

If you create something that is eternal and indestructable, you have created God himself, which is impossible.

We are created beings that are maintained by the Lord. We will not be God, but have fellowship with Him. This means to actually accept the Lord, to have communion and to be able to reject it, there is always the ability to lose that which one has gained.

And to walk in Holiness, love and forgiveness, is not crucifying Jesus again, but walking in our salvation.

So to accept the reality of our communion with Christ is belief in the real sense, and realising the great gift He is giving us. Amen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"You have described yourself to a T."

I expected you to say this.

As well you should. Because it does.

But funnily it made me realise you fulfil your own criticism of others.

This is a "funnily" statement.

Those who accuse others of unbelief, it is their unbelief that leads them to defeat.

How does your unbelief of what Jesus taught about eternal security somehow turn into MY unbelief? Can you please explain yourself, because what you are claiming is absurd to me.

The argument line is normally, you are a sinner who wants self righteousness to earn forgiveness from God.

Have I ever said any of this? No. Please just focus on what I have posted, rather than what you've "normally" seen posted.

You have made clear that you think that some recipients of eternal life CAN perish. That is diametrically opposed to what Jesus said.

The distortion is devaluing righteous walking into self righteousness.

Except I've not devalued anything. I HAVE pointed out that your view is diametrically opposed to what Jesus taught about recipients of eternal life.

Faith is exalted into a magic ticket into heaven with no conditions or refusal.

Well, there you go again. Disbelieving what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

They shall NEVER PERISH. So why do you keep going on about conditions for recipients to meet in order to not perish? The ONLY ANSWER is that you don't believe what Jesus said.

And the whole theology is based on people being unable to walk like Jesus.

Let's be clear here. Those who disbelieve what Jesus taught cannot walk like Jesus. So quit claiming you do when you can't, as long as you don't believe what He teaches.

In faith through the cross Jesus provides forgiveness of sins and purity.

Yes, He does. And that is based on grace. Eph 2:8,9

But this purity and cleansing takes effort and a walk.

Uh, no, it doesn't. That would be based on works (your own efforts).

Paul said it this way, in Rom 11:6 - And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Though Paul, Peter, James, John all testify to this, it is just ignored in preference for the sacrifice of Jesus.

What are you talking about? What have I "ignored"?

So what should be the source of freedom, becomes the excuse for bondage to sin, and a conflicted and unresolved heart.

It is your own heart that is unresolved, since you definitely DO NOT BELIEVE what Jesus taught about eternal security.

And any scripture I provide which shows salvation is not certain, because it is our walk and relationship, is simple ignored.

Rather, EVERY verse you try to foist off as being that salvation is "not certain" will be properly explained to you.

If your claim here were true about there being verses that do show that salvation is not certain, then the Bible is internally conflicted and Jesus' teaching in John 10:28 cannot be true.

So, go ahead and just try to prove the Bible is internally contradicted.

No wonder entering heaven is so hard, and the path is narrow, because it is easy to get it all wrong if our hearts are not cleansed first.

You need to cleanse your own unbelieving heart first.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I wish you knew what it was to evangelise.

Once again you've badly mischaracterized what I know and don't know. You're batting 1,000 on the negative side.

Because you would destroy anyones heart who desires to share something they care and deeply honour.

Apparently you have no idea what evangelizing is even about. When evangelizing someone, what they "care and deeply honor" isn't even an issue. What is THE ISSUE is the good news that Christ died for their sins and gives them the free gift of eternal life so that they will never perish if they trust Him for it.

Your line of argument would be, You know Jesus but the way you share about security in Jesus is wrong, so it is all a lie.

Just read my previous comment above, which destroys your silly view of my "line of argument".

btw, when evangelizing, one should NEVER argue anyway.

No wonder evangelists never preach like you do, because they would never bring anyone to Christ through repentance and faith.

You don't know what you're talking about. Again.

But then your faith is the faith of apostate believers trying to justify their return to Christ without actually obeying Him.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[FreeGrace2]

JL: If falling away from the faith is NOT the same as losing salvation, what is this falling away that is so serious as to crucify the Son of God afresh?

First, let's be clear about something. Nothing can EVER "crucify the Son of God afresh". He died ONCE for all sins. So if you're taking the verse literally, you're just wrong.

Second, those who cease to believe (fall away from the faith) are a horrible testimony to others, and they become eligible for God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) which can include death (1 Cor 11:30). That's why it is serious.

But, just consider the reality of this: IF salvation can be lost, and a saved person can end up perishing, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 cannot be true.

So, I await your explanation of what Jesus was saying (teaching) in that verse.

I just can't imagine how you're going to twist it to say something obviously other than what the plain words mean.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Unbelief is always evil."

If you believe this, then why do you not believe the Lord can deal with your heart and bring order to your emotional life?

How does it feel to strike out EVERY TIME you come up to bat? You've NEVER even come close to what I believe or know about anything.

I DO believe the Lord can and DOES deal with my heart and He already HAS brought order to my life. My "emotional life" is immaterial to spiritual growth, and in fact, as you have already acknowledged in post #1613, your emotions ruined you for a year.

Unbelief is not a sin.
Committing evil acts is.

I don't believe that unbelief is not a sin. Of course it is a sin. But you've never yet come close to understanding anything I've posted.

Not believing in God is the excuse or cause of evil behaviour.

Nonsense. You claim to be a believer in Jesus Christ for salvation. OK, fine. But then you DON'T believe what He teaches. That IS evil.

Because people think God does not see them, they commit evil deeds.

I don't care what idiots think. Nor can I make them see anything.

They pour out arrogant words; all the evildoers are full of boasting.
They crush your people, O LORD; they oppress your inheritance.
They slay the widow and the alien; they murder the fatherless.
Psalm 94:4-6

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.
Psalm 14:1-3

Since you don't believe what Jesus teaches about eternal security, how do you think God views you?

Jesus promises the Kingdom of Heaven through the Holy Spirit.

You make a lot of statements and claims, yet where is the biblical evidence? Please give at least one verse that supports your claim here.

God in our hearts, God communing with man. Once this relationship is devalued to a distant reality, to a sinner walking only in appearance like a saint but not in reality, all truth is lost.

You have already revealed that you don't believe the truth, that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. You have added conditions that Jesus never did.

And this is the point. If you keep a closed heart you lock Jesus out, and He can not save or transform you, because you are rebelling against His presence.

Just look very hard into a mirror, because your own disbelief in what Jesus taught is rebellion against Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This kind of logic is an inversion of what is happening.
A living thing can die.

It sounds as though you are implying that God's life, which is eternal life, can die. Is that what you are insinuating? Or what?

Regardless of what you believe, eternal life is, by definition, life that exists forever. Therefore, it cannot die.

That is precisely WHY Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Because they CAN'T perish. Because they HAVE (possess) eternal life.

But you don't believe any of this. Even though Jesus said it.

Something that is safe but has real responsibilities and dangers, can also be destroyed.

This sentence means nothing.

If you create something that is eternal and indestructable, you have created God himself, which is impossible.

Again, what are you talking about? What have I claimed to have "created"? I've never ever claimed such stupidity.

Here's what I claim: God gives His own life, which is eternal life, to those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. He is Creator. And when someone believes in Christ, he becomes a NEW creation. 2 Cor 5:17

We are created beings that are maintained by the Lord. We will not be God, but have fellowship with Him.

Yet, in spite of all the direct comments from both Gr8Grace and myself about how to have fellowship with the Lord, you have been unable to describe how to do that.

This means to actually accept the Lord, to have communion and to be able to reject it, there is always the ability to lose that which one has gained.

This is false doctrine. First Jesus SAID those He gives eternal life shall never perish, and second, there are NO verses that say what you claim here.

And to walk in Holiness, love and forgiveness, is not crucifying Jesus again, but walking in our salvation.

And those who DON'T believe what Jesus teaches, CANNOT "walk in holiness, love or forgiveness".

 

[LightLoveHope]

OK, fine. But then you DON'T believe what He teaches. That IS evil.

This is just so odd. You have made what is believed into morality.
Once you start down this road, you can kill people for the wrong thoughts and beliefs which religious groups have done for centuries. I thought you were against such things.

And Jesus never taught to believe in security. It is a crazy idea to believe in something is more secure than something else, when the thing itself proves this on its own. It is innate within the object itself. So to know Christ is to have security in Him.

All the testimonies I have heard emphasis this. When you come to see Him as the Lord made flesh, you know whatever He says is reliable.

Regardless of what you believe, eternal life is, by definition, life that exists forever. Therefore, it cannot die.

This is a simple miss-understanding of eternal life.
Life that does not perish is eternal. It is not different from normal life, it just has no end. Our fellowship with Jesus brings us from death to life. It is this fellowship which gives us life, not some magic ticket that cannot be taken away.

Unfortunately your language is so terminal.

And those who DON'T believe what Jesus teaches, CANNOT "walk in holiness, love or forgiveness".

We gain holiness, love and forgiveness by faith in Jesus. In knowing His cleansing takes us to this new place.

It grieves me that you are so closed and judgemental about the core issues of life in Christ. You want to get across that you are saved and I am not.

So after sharing my heart, my life, and my testimony, you treat it a nothing.
I can obviously not share anything more, as you are so set in your perspective, but at least I have tried to show you love and understanding.

God bless you, in the Name of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

your emotions ruined you for a year

This is funny. What I was mentioning was I needed to change the way I drove a car.
This is were you are slightly more cautious, rather than totally relaxed in driving.

I was trying to emphasis the importance of our emotions and how we operate, but clearly this is just a battle with me as an opponent.

No matter how you try, I will just praise the Lord, my Saviour. And I encourage you to do likewise, to see the eternity in Jesus's words. Love has always been the key to everything, the foundation of the Lord, His humbleness and Holiness.

Our Lord is so unbelievably understanding while warning us we will literally be destroyed if we do not listen and follow Him, because He is so way beyond us, and our fragility is so bad, unless we change, we are just a husk in His presence.

I know in the world, to admit fragility is wrong, weakness, but in the Lord it is the beginning of wisdom to see in our weakness His grace can make us complete. Thank you Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"OK, fine. But then you DON'T believe what He teaches. That IS evil."

This is just so odd. You have made what is believed into morality.

You are the most amazing person. It seems that it's just ok to disbelieve what Jesus taught. Why is that?

Once you start down this road, you can kill people for the wrong thoughts and beliefs which religious groups have done for centuries. I thought you were against such things.

What makes you think I've "gone down that road"? You haven't yet got anything right about me yet.

And Jesus never taught to believe in security.

I've already asked you what you think Jesus meant by what He clearly said in John 10:28.

It is a crazy idea to believe in something is more secure than something else, when the thing itself proves this on its own. It is innate within the object itself. So to know Christ is to have security in Him.

The reason is because He is the One who guarantees security for those who believe in Him. Yet, you don't believe that.

This is a simple miss-understanding of eternal life.

Oh really? Then enlighten me about the truth of eternal life.

Life that does not perish is eternal.

That's exactly the life that Jesus gives to believers. When they believe. Which is why John 10:28 applies WHEN one believes.

It is not different from normal life, it just has no end.

Oh, it's WAY different. Just read 1 Cor 15.

Our fellowship with Jesus brings us from death to life.

No it doesn't. Our faith in Christ brings us from death to life. Don't you know the Scriptures? John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

It is this fellowship which gives us life, not some magic ticket that cannot be taken away.

You just keep on being WRONG. Maybe you just don't believe what Jesus taught in John 5:24 either.

Unfortunately your language is so terminal.

No, it's clear, direct, and truthful.

It grieves me that you are so closed and judgemental about the core issues of life in Christ.

You need to be grieved about your denial of what Jesus taught in John 5:24 and 10:28.

You want to get across that you are saved and I am not.

Nope. That never crossed my mind. My issue with you is your REFUSAL to believe what Jesus so clearly taught in Jojhn 5:24 and 10:28.

So after sharing my heart, my life, and my testimony, you treat it a nothing.

Why not? You admitted that your emotions ruined your life for a year, back in post #1613.

I can obviously not share anything more, as you are so set in your perspective, but at least I have tried to show you love and understanding.

Actually, you've not understood a thing I've posted.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"your emotions ruined you for a year"

This is funny. What I was mentioning was I needed to change the way I drove a car.

Do you want me to actually quote your own words back to you?

I'm not making anything up. Just reporting what you yourself said.

This is were you are slightly more cautious, rather than totally relaxed in driving.

That's not what you said or even implied.

I was trying to emphasis the importance of our emotions and how we operate, but clearly this is just a battle with me as an opponent.

You need to re-read your own post, because it seems you've totally forgotten what you posted.

No matter how you try, I will just praise the Lord, my Saviour. And I encourage you to do likewise, to see the eternity in Jesus's words.

What an odd statement from you, who doesn't even believe in the "eternity in Jesus' words". Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. You have indicated that recipients of eternal life have conditions to meet in order to not perish. In spite of what Jesus said so clearly.

Love has always been the key to everything, the foundation of the Lord, His humbleness and Holiness.

No, it's truth and grace that is the key to everything.
John 1:14 - The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:17 - For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Our Lord is so unbelievably understanding while warning us we will literally be destroyed if we do not listen and follow Him, because He is so way beyond us, and our fragility is so bad, unless we change, we are just a husk in His presence.

You need to learn what "destroy" means in context. If He meant lose salvation, then we can believe NOTHING He said, because then He would have contradicted Himself.

But you can't see the obvious.

I know in the world, to admit fragility is wrong, weakness, but in the Lord it is the beginning of wisdom to see in our weakness His grace can make us complete. Thank you Jesus.

Weakness is because of ignorance of God's word. I admit to needing to know God's word more clearly, but it seems you don't even care. You're just too wrapped up in your own feelings.

In fact, you seem to revel in elevating your emotions and feelings over knowledge of God's word and what Jesus promises those who believe in Him.

 

[LightLoveHope]

That's not what you said or even implied.

This is the trouble with writing. I can write something which to me implies and means a particular thing and others can read it in a different light. What is interesting to me, is you think this is important, how you read something is how it is meant. Or to put it another way, you are defining the world by your own understanding.

When I started this interaction I said commenting on beliefs can only be what we as individuals think of various positions. The audience may or may not be holders of these positions, and that is never really the point. It is the ability to discuss the point that makes it interesting, or boring if people refuse to engage and see anothers perspective.

So I could say Jesus calls us to hate our family, to be perfect, to chop off our hands, pluck out our eyes, and give everything we have away. If one cannot take these phrases into a reasonable framework then the meaning is lost. Like Jesus says some will see Him coming in His Kingdom before they die.

Then the transfiguration occurs. He is seen in power and glory, proof of the anointing by God. Now some think he meant something else, but the 3 gospel writers place the words before the event, implying this was Him coming in His Kingdom. Or John the Baptist was Elijah returning. So from this we gather Jesus uses metaphor and signs to indicate His meaning, and it is not literal.

I say this because to use the idea of not perishing to be the culmination of the faith, is just absurd. It is like child soldiers believing they are bullet proof. Given a tank to sit in, fine, but not by oneself.

And the condemnation of good holy people. That alone should make them feel ashamed. But rather than being ashamed, they get angry and furious one is not agreeing with them, abiding in sin and failure and ignoring Jesus's words.

David is a prophet, an example of Godly behaviour. He meditated on Gods word and took delight in His precepts. One member of the lawless group told me at great length he hated the law and just felt condemned when he read it. It never occurred to him Gods word was working and he should have repented of the issues being convicted. No it was satan telling him of his sins.

This is how lost these folk become, turning love in to hate, righteousness into evil and belief in a living relationship into a delusion of emotion. Very sad. May the Lord have mercy on their souls.

 

[LightLoveHope]

In fact, you seem to revel in elevating your emotions and feelings over knowledge of God's word and what Jesus promises those who believe in Him.

When I read these words I am grieved. I mourn for you. I have never read such a rejection and distortion of basic life realities and a belief that Jesus will deliver something you do not have.

Without a cleansed, purified heart, open emotions, standing before the King we are nothing.
"Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."
Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar.
With it he touched my mouth and said, "See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for."
Isaiah 6:5-7

So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'
Luke 17:10

We stand like strangers bought with a price, and called to do the best we can, and to simply listen and follow our Lord. It is easy to criticise and make fun, to say we are trying to prove something, or will be made fools of when we see Jesus and He disowns us as evil doers, but this is our calling.

We are called to be meek, to bless, to be loving, compassionate, servants of others, to suffer and to be at peace in Him. And others claim the Lord has called them to be Kings, to have their dreams, to live is ease and sacrifice nothing. Odd that, this is how the world behaves, and yet the very ideas are put in Gods mouth. The prophets met people like this before.

Hear the word of the LORD, you Israelites, because the LORD has a charge to bring against you who live in the land: "There is no faithfulness, no love, no acknowledgment of God in the land.
2> There is only cursing, lying and murder, stealing and adultery; they break all bounds, and bloodshed follows bloodshed.
3> Because of this the land mourns, and all who live in it waste away; the beasts of the field and the birds of the air and the fish of the sea are dying.
4> "But let no man bring a charge, let no man accuse another, for your people are like those who bring charges against a priest.
5> You stumble day and night, and the prophets stumble with you. So I will destroy your mother-
6> my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.
Hosea 4:1-6

 

[LightLoveHope]

Love

If you have not understood love how can you put it on.
If you have not seen Jesus loves you, how can you believe Him
If you cannot love the church, how can you claim to know Him
If you stay defended and hidden, how can you be walking in the light

Love is that thing that has no boundaries and is always optimistic for good outcomes.
It pushes me to share when it is probably pointless, to bless when they will continue
to be angry and furious, to rejoice even though it will hurt and disturb me.

But love says turn the other cheek, bear the pain and forgive because they do not know
what they are doing. And if they agree with the sentiments, Amen, there is hope.

Praise you Lord, that in the darkest places still your light will shine, Amen.