2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

Yes it would be ludicrous to say eternal life can die. Eternal life is God’s life. A Christian receives the gift of eternal life=God’s life, when indwelled by the Holy Spirit at baptism making the body a temple of God.

So far, so good.

As with any gift one is free to do with it as they choose, reject it, accept it or throw it away defiling the temple of God through a sin that brings forth death.

Oh, dear. Now you've just gone off the rails. It is illogical to equate the gift of God's life with any kind of inanimate object (gift), like a birthday or Christmas present.

Unless you can provide any verses that specifically indicates that one has the freedom and ability to "throw it away", as one might do with a "while elephant gift" at a gift exchange, there is no reason at all to accept your premise.

btw, people DO choose or reject the gift all the time. But what you seem to be unaware of is that ONCE the gift is received by Jesus (John 10:28), that recipient shall never perish. That is what Jesus SAID.

So, are you actually prepared to reject what Jesus said?

What He didn't say in that verse is that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, AS LONG AS THEY DON'T THROW IT AWAY.

[1Cor3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.]

This is a reference to God's discipline of physical death, which Paul specified in 1 Cor 11:30.

[1Cor6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.]

This doesn't say anything close to your view of throwing away eternal life.

The Holy Spirit cannot remain in a defiled temple.

Is this something you dreamed up, or do you have a verse that says so?

btw, Paul commands believers to STOP grieving and STOP quenching the Holy Spirit.

JL originally posted [Jms1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.]

Again, the "death" here is God's discipline that includes physical death.

In order for sin to bring forth death the one who sins must first have eternal life to die spiritually.[/QUOTE]
You have misunderstood the use of "death" in these verses.

Again, your view is in direct conflict with what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life. You might want to ponder that.

Those who do not have eternal life are already spiritually dead.

Once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. I believe what Jesus said.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

We see the result of believing is to receive (possess) eternal life in the red words.

We see the result or effect of possessing eternal life in the blue words.

Your view is diametrically opposed to Jesus' very clear words.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Your view is different from the Bible"

Hi Free,

Do you know what being graceful is? It is admitting the truth about yourself and others.

Which shows that I have been graceful to you. I am admitting the truth about the Bible and your unbiblical views.

Many bible schools with committed and Spirit filled believers who teach people how to be pastors and teachers, disagree on security and predestination.

And this seems to be your only defense. Which is no defense. Why hide behind those who can't rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15)?

They know their friends and brothers in the Lord read the same verses with a different view and conviction.

Are you trying to argue that any specific verse can have contradictory meanings?

It is a test of your real love to know people have differing views and it does not matter if they love the Lord and follow His ways.

What DOES matter is when believers who claim to follow the Lord actually DON'T believe what He teaches.

Why doesn't that bother you?

This is where you are divisive.

Truth IS divisive. It creates believers and unbelievers. Couldn't be more divisive.

You cannot take this step. And therein lies your spiritual problem which indicates more about you and your own indoctrination rather than loving people in the Lord. John exhorts us, we know we love God because we love our brothers.

Why do you keep making false judgments about me, when you know nothing about me? Just as John exhorts us (believers), so I also exhort YOU to STOP rejecting what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

The problem lies with your resistance to accepting God's grace toward His own children. He doesn't divorce them, or kill them spiritually. He disciplines them as Hebrews 12 clearly teaches. But you'd rather have God spiritually kill His rebellious children.

In the congregation of our church we have brethren, anglicans, charismatics, open heaven, conservative and liberal believers. But they all come to worship Jesus each sunday. There is no formula that will make these people one way or the other, but slowly the Spirit of God moves and changes them.

That's the point. It's the Spirit of God who moves and changes people. They NEED to know and believe the TRUTH of Scripture, something that you are NOT prepared to do. In fact, you don't ACCEPT the truth.

It is this I want to see, moving forward in our walks, and seeing love working out in us.

Your "walk" is a sham when you openly and consciously reject what Jesus teaches.

All the rest of things will pass away when the Lord is among us. Amen.

Of course. In the meantime, just get back on the right path and accept all that Jesus teaches. My exhortation to you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Not just "different". In TOTAL CONTRARINESS."

This sentence summaries the fanatic.

No, your comment summaries the fanatic.

A person is 99% the same as another in their outlooks, way of life, things they are committed to, worship, prayer etc. yet one issue becomes you are the opposite to me.

Every issue of doctrine is important.

To convince someone of this, you have to get them to ignore everything in life, and say in effect all that is irrelevant, it is just this one point that matters. This is the Flat Earth phenomenon. Facts on longer matter, everyone is a liar and conspirator, unless you believe x, because not believing x makes you a liar.

Seems you just love to exaggerate.

I seriously thought flat Earthers did not exist. Until I met them on a forum.
It was interesting talking to them. Except when simple facts, like the guy who went to the edge of space to free fall back to earth, are all lies, fake. Or GPS and locating any point on the surface of earth through satellites, which you can show working on your phone. Or how the sun rises and sets at different places indicating where you are on the globe.

zzzzzzzzzzzz

So Free is just like these guys.
Facts and rationality leave the room. They are nice people, but this is their delusion.

You are delusional. I'm the one giving the facts and being rational. You compare me to idiots who deny reality (flat earthers).

And you know they have passed over into this behaviour when they suggest things are actually completely different than they appear. No. What is different is the delusion that this is true so their way of thinking can continue despite facts showing they are wrong.

I'll be you are unaware of the fact that none of your posts helps your view in any way.

 

[FreeGrace2]

When you buy a car, does the guarantee matter, or whether the car does not rust and fall apart?

Guarantees are a promise from the maker to put right a problem if it fails. They show the giver of the promise is so convinced of their offer, they will deliver.

This is a great example of delusion. When God guarantees something, it isn't because He's there to "put right a problem if it fails". That's just pure nonsense.

When God makes a promise (guarantee), it means it WILL come to pass. It WILL occur. It has nothing to do with your rusting car.

But what actually matters is the reality itself.

That's what you have been ignoring, rejecting, dodging.

When the guarantee becomes more important than reality, delusion has taken over.

God's guarantee IS reality. You are delusional.

Anyone can promise anything, but if the object fails it is a false promise.

Are you actually suggesting that God's promise can fail?

So if Jesus promises by walking in His ways you will never perish

FULL STOP. Jesus NEVER said this. This is your delusion talking. Stop it.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

 

[LightLoveHope]

FULL STOP. Jesus NEVER said this. This is your delusion talking. Stop it.

Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven
Matthew 10:32-33

If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
John 15:6

Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
John 15:9-10

If we do not remain in Jesus love, we are cast out.

All this I have told you so that you will not go astray
John 16:1

Jesus is warning us we can go astray, if we do not listen to Him.
Here on this thread we have people who claim they are part of the chosen and they can decide out of other believers who is not. And this is the problem. They want respect as knowing God while denying the need to be pure and Holy in ones walk.

Their morality is so poor, they will lie and distort everything that does not sit with their view, and refuse to admit others view things differently from a good heart and with love for Jesus. Now sinful behaviour begins at this point. Standing in judgement over another believer is judging Gods law as is said.

And it can be noted they do not care how the Lord views them, rather they wish to strongly express their view as if that makes it stronger. Such is the way delusions work, even when the facts say something very different.

One simple sign of this is commands like "Stop it". Praise God that He gives us His word and asks us to follow because we know it is right. This is Gods way, Amen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said:
"So if Jesus promises by walking in His ways you will never perish"

I responded:
"FULL STOP. Jesus NEVER said this. This is your delusion talking. Stop it."

Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven
Matthew 10:32-33

Don't you know that v.32 condemns YOU? You do NOT acknowledge what Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28. You, in effect, DISOWN His teachings, in favor of your own opinions.

Jesus NEVER "promised by walking in His ways you will never perish". What a fallacy.

You seem to enjoy making things up.

What Jesus really said was that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

A huge difference between your made up claim and what Jesus actually said.

But it seems none of this has any effect on you at all.

If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
John 15:6

We know this verse cannot refer to "staying in salvation" because Eph 1:13,14 doesn't allow such. Those who have believed ARE SEALED with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit that GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption, as God's possession.

Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
John 15:9-10

This is all about fellowship, communion, intimacy. Nothing about doing things to remain saved.

If we do not remain in Jesus love, we are cast out.

Out of fellowship, that is.

Jesus is warning us we can go astray, if we do not listen to Him.

Yes, indeed He is. Which He also taught in Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Here on this thread we have people who claim they are part of the chosen and they can decide out of other believers who is not. And this is the problem.

That is a silly claim and I have never made it. So let's just stop all this focusing on what others claim or think or emote, and just focus on what I am telling you.

Is that possible?

One simple sign of this is commands like "Stop it".

God tells His errant children to STOP IT! We see this in Eph 4:30 and 1 Thess 5:19.

The English doesn't bring this out, but in the Greek, it means to cease what you are doing.

Praise God that He gives us His word and asks us to follow because we know it is right.

Huh? But you don't even believe His word, so how can you follow, and know that it is right?

You're still not making sense, and not being rational.

This is Gods way, Amen.

You're not following God's way, which includes eternal security. You can't even quote verses accurately.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Don't you know that v.32 condemns YOU? You do NOT acknowledge what Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28. You, in effect, DISOWN His teachings, in favor of your own opinions.

We know this verse cannot refer to "staying in salvation" because Eph 1:13,14 doesn't allow such. Those who have believed ARE SEALED with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit that GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption, as God's possession.

There is an obvious problem in your logic.
When Jesus says you need to remain in Him or you will dry up and be burnt, that is pretty certain.
Being burnt is being destroyed.

If one wants to say being sealed means it is impossible to be burnt up, does not know what sealing is.
A seal is the mark of an authority over a letter or individual that they speak on behalf of the person who is doing the sealing. But if by their behaviour they deny the authority and priniciples of the giver of the seal, they are no longer the representative of the authority.

People project sealing it is like being sealed in a room or building so you cannot get out. But this is not the use of the word Paul is giving. He is saying the gift of the Holy Spirit shows Gods favour on us.

But if we lose our faith and the Holy Spirit no longer dwells in us, how can we claim still to be sealed?

Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
2 Timothy 2:19

What is ironic here is Paul is saying we are sealed in God and must turn away from wickedness.
So the authority of God in our lives is the opposite of walking in wickedness. Or to turn to wickedness is to turn away from God.

This is the obvious conclusion of the words. Emotions go along with ones faith and convictions, so to read these words and look for excuses, you will always find some. But it is really very clear. Righteous walking seals you in Christ through the Holy Spirit.

 

[LightLoveHope]

You're not following God's way, which includes eternal security. You can't even quote verses accurately.

Free, I feel sorry for you.
You wish to say something as if it has authority, but that is only gained by accurately representing where someone is and what they believe. You then can take them on a journey to a new place, of another position.

You only have your view, and whatever I say you have an emotional block to dismiss it. And no one will ever be able to get through this, because emotions define how we build our world.

It is why we have to become like children, to learn through the Holy Spirit to walk in His ways.

Jesus loves you, but until you get in touch with yourself and how and why you react as you do emotionally you will be lost in this world and the world to come. I have not said anything radical, yet you deal with me as if I am evil, doing satans works and your enemy. I know your issue, it is plain to me. And everything I write will be put within this context and rejected, because you need the world to be like this.

Once you start saying "you emote" you lose the plot about what you yourself are doing. We all live in and by our emotions. It is our emotions that keep us in touch with how we are doing. This is part of what in Christ everyone begins to learn at the cross, and in brokenness and mourning over our own state and need. It is also why Christ gives us comfort and peace, because He bring resolution and forgiveness, cleansing and love. And deep in our souls, hearts, spirits we need this. This is life, at a fundamental level. Singing in the Spirit in tongues is a true reflection of our hearts singing to God.

For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.
1 Corinthians 14:2

I know how my spirit lifts within me when I spend time with God like this, so I know this truth.
Praise God for His gifts and His ministry to our hearts, Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

You, in effect, DISOWN His teachings, in favor of your own opinions

I once looked for Gods word to speak a Godly rebuke to my heart.
But this encourages me. I am accused of disowning taking God for granted, and believing He would do nothing about wilful rebellion and evil.
And my opinion is God loves me and intends me to follow in His ways, victoriously living a pure loving life seeing His grace working out.

So praise the Lord, I am desiring to follow His will.
And Gods will is this,

for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
Do everything without complaining or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe
Philippians 2:13-15

Amen. Thank you Jesus for your work in our lives to make this come true.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is an obvious problem in your logic.

Maybe the "problem" is the lack of logic in your posts. When do emotions employ logic?

When Jesus says you need to remain in Him or you will dry up and be burnt, that is pretty certain.
Being burnt is being destroyed.

Now, please prove that the Bible never uses the word for 'destroy' to mean physical death. Only if you can prove that would you have a point.

If one wants to say being sealed means it is impossible to be burnt up, does not know what sealing is.

And that would be you, and your lack of logic.

A seal is the mark of an authority over a letter or individual that they speak on behalf of the person who is doing the sealing. But if by their behaviour they deny the authority and priniciples of the giver of the seal, they are no longer the representative of the authority.

Once again you've demonstrated a lot of ignorance of the Bible. In Eph 1:13,14 we don't have a literal seal, a physical mark "of authority over a letter".

No. We have the Holy Spirit Himself, and this sealing is the actual indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. His indwelling marks the believer as God's possession and is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption.

Only one totally lost in illogic won't see these words as eternal security.

Eph 1-
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

People project sealing it is like being sealed in a room or building so you cannot get out. But this is not the use of the word Paul is giving. He is saying the gift of the Holy Spirit shows Gods favour on us.

You aren't even close. Just read the verses I have provided and learn.

But if we lose our faith and the Holy Spirit no longer dwells in us, how can we claim still to be sealed?

Unless you provide any verse that says the Holy Spirit no longer dwells in us, for any reason, you don't have a point.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"You're not following God's way, which includes eternal security. You can't even quote verses accurately."

Free, I feel sorry for you.

You need to turn your emotions inward, as your propensity for failing to quote verses accurately.

You wish to say something as if it has authority, but that is only gained by accurately representing where someone is and what they believe.

I quote Scripture. Which HAS authority. Unlike your emotional opinions.
As as for "accurately representing where & what is believed", you've failed to accurately represent my views consistently.

You only have your view, and whatever I say you have an emotional block to dismiss it.

Here's the reality. My view is what the Bible SAYS, which I've proved over and over by quoting verses (accurately) that SAY what I believe.

As for some "emotional block", that describes you to a T.

And no one will ever be able to get through this, because emotions define how we build our world.

See? That's what I'm talking about. Maybe you build your world based on emotions, but logical people don't.

It is why we have to become like children, to learn through the Holy Spirit to walk in His ways.

The Holy Spirit would NEVER lead any believer to reject the clear words of Jesus.

Jesus loves you, but until you get in touch with yourself and how and why you react as you do emotionally

There goes your own emotional block again. I don't react emotionally. I respond by biblical principles, most of which you seem totally unaware of.

you will be lost in this world and the world to come.

No, I cannot be "lost in the world to come" because Jesus has given me eternal life and He said those given eternal life shall never perish.

I have not said anything radical, yet you deal with me as if I am evil, doing satans works and your enemy.

Much of what you post IS radical, and unbiblical. How is that not doing the work of satan?

I know your issue, it is plain to me. And everything I write will be put within this context and rejected, because you need the world to be like this.

I don't need anything. And you still don't know my 'issue'. You're too emotional to see straight or apply logic.

My context is from a biblical worldview. Which you don't have.

Once you start saying "you emote" you lose the plot about what you yourself are doing.

I only point out what you yourself keep posting about your "emotions defining how you build your world". To you, everything is based on emotions, which is wrong.

We all live in and by our emotions.

See? You just keep on doing this. That's the very reason why I keep posting "you emote". Because you DO.

It is our emotions that keep us in touch with how we are doing.

There you go again. And you're wrong. Logic and reason keeps us in touch with reality.

 

[LightLoveHope]

As for some "emotional block", that describes you to a T.

There you go again. And you're wrong. Logic and reason keeps us in touch with reality.

The problem we have is not reality, it is who we are.
The world does not change but we can. It is our perception of reality and God which causes us to be sinners and to fail. So where the change needs to occur is in us, through Gods hand.

This requires an open heart and honesty about how we function.
It is very hard to admit we are something different than we think we are. That is what self discovery is all about.

So becoming aware of our emotions and how they affect us is freedom.
And in this revelation of my needs and how Jesus meets them through the Holy Spirit is life in Christ.

Thank you Jesus for today and vision of change you wish to work through all of us.
Thank you that you put us in control of who we are and how we walk through your life and our communion with you. Praise your Holy Name, Amen

 

[LightLoveHope]

See? You just keep on doing this. That's the very reason why I keep posting "you emote". Because you DO.

And emotional dwarf who denies emotions are part of everything we do, is a victim of their emotional state because they just assume its stability means it is not there.

One sign of this blindness occurs when someone close to a person dies. Suddenly their world collapses with unbelievable pain. It is not chosen, it happens, because the emotions override all the repression and ignoring and shake up the person, because it is so foundational to who they are.

For those very layered, this emotion can become a feeling of now I have discovered who I am. But this is just an indication of how thorough their emotional repression has been in their life.

But Jesus comes with life and freedom. There is no need to live like this or feel scared of the power and influence of emotions. Rather in Christ we can explore who we are, and resolve the feelings we have ignored and buried and work through to resolution in love and life.

Now I know this works because Jesus has done this in me. It is how God builds a child of God from a sinner who has been damaged and destroyed by the world and its sinful tumult.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The problem we have is not reality, it is who we are.

Are you kidding??!

Who we are IS reality. You certainly are confused about what reality is.

The world does not change but we can.

Everything changes.

It is our perception of reality and God which causes us to be sinners and to fail.

Again, you have admitted here that you do not know God's word. What causes man to sin is the FACT (reality) that Adam's sinful nature is inherited to his progeny. Romans 5 has all the details (facts).

So where the change needs to occur is in us, through Gods hand.

Yes, and the Bible gives us the facts about how that change occurs, which you've previously demonstrated that you don't know (the facts).

This requires an open heart and honesty about how we function.

No, it requires understanding the facts that the Bible has explained, and obeying the Bible regarding those facts.

It is very hard to admit we are something different than we think we are. That is what self discovery is all about.

But those who have learned the facts of the Bible, KNOW who they are, as a sinner saved by grace, and as a child of God, secure in His hands.

So becoming aware of our emotions and how they affect us is freedom.

Not really. You've demonstrated just how much of a slave to your own emotions you are. You have elevated your emotions above reality (facts).

And in this revelation of my needs and how Jesus meets them through the Holy Spirit is life in Christ.

Your "needs" are hardly the issue in Scripture. You've conflated your emotional needs with your real needs, which is knowledge (facts) of Scripture.

Man is born needy. He needs salvation through faith in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And emotional dwarf who denies emotions are part of everything we do, is a victim of their emotional state because they just assume its stability means it is not there.

Another veiled admission that emotions are the most important aspect of your life.

I've never "denied emotions". I've put them in PROPER PERSPECTIVE relative to Scripture and life itself.

One sign of this blindness occurs when someone close to a person dies. Suddenly their world collapses with unbelievable pain.

The Bible teaches a far different perspective. Paul put it this way in 1 Thess 4:13 - Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

What you have described is common among unbelievers, who have no hope.

When believers lose someone close and "suddenly their world collapses with unbelievable pain", they are acting like unbelievers.

Are you describing yourself here? Both of my parents have passed away and are in heaven. My world didn't fall apart. I rejoiced that they were in heaven. Yes, I did and do miss them. But I didn't fall apart.

It is not chosen, it happens, because the emotions override all the repression and ignoring and shake up the person, because it is so foundational to who they are.

The ONLY TIME "emotions override all the blah blah blah", is when the person is bound by their emotions and can't reason.

For those very layered, this emotion can become a feeling of now I have discovered who I am.

I don't understand your statement here. Can you re-phrase for clarity?

But this is just an indication of how thorough their emotional repression has been in their life.

It seems to me that anyone who has their emotions in check are "repressive". That is not reality.

But Jesus comes with life and freedom. There is no need to live like this or feel scared of the power and influence of emotions.

Having control over one's emotions does not equal being "scared" of them.

Rather in Christ we can explore who we are

Apart from the facts of the Bible, how do you do that? By what you "feel"?

Now I know this works because Jesus has done this in me. It is how God builds a child of God from a sinner who has been damaged and destroyed by the world and its sinful tumult.

The Bible never speaks of God "building a child of God". Where do you get that idea?

Instead, the facts of the Bible state that those who believe receive the right to become the children of God. John 1:12 and Gal 3:26

What is clear from your last sentence is how fragile you are (or were) and explains your single focus on emotions.

I conclude that you are a prisoner of your emotions. You can't see anything else.

I do feel sorry (an emotion) for you. It must be a difficult way to live.

 

[LightLoveHope]

What is clear from your last sentence is how fragile you are (or were) and explains your single focus on emotions.

We are as people very fragile. Most people have a crisises at some time in their lives.
Everything that forms part of us adds to this strength or weakness.

Part of our faith in Jesus is recognition of love and support through Jesus is part
of our very existence.

It is the ability of people to say, "I do not need ..... I can stand alone ..... I do not need to change ..... I did it my way ......"

Jesus criticism of mans rebellion is mans very foundation stands on Gods grace, mercy and love. And when judgement comes, all this will be taken away. Nothing matters when all our treasure in the world turns to dust.

Emotions are the belief we are safe, behind our homes, walls, jobs, families. But this is just a dream and delusion. When the storms come, and rain beats down on us, we find our foundations are washed away and we stand exposed, alone, in pieces. The promise Jesus gives is when we build this emotional foundation on Him, and obey His words we stand strong at the end.

But if one ignores our emotional existence and its foundation, and disobey the foundation, we find we are washed away and ruined.

The reason why you do not understand security in Christ, and how your heart knows this security at an emotional level, is because you shut emotions out and do not understand them.

To replace this lack of empathy and understanding you cling to a doctrine of belief security and disown anyone who does not agree with you. But this condemnation of others is hurtful and damaging, founded on your own lack of empathy or understanding. So rather than letting me walk with the Lord and knows His Spirit and ministry in my life, you would condemn as speaking satans lies and denying Jesus. This accusation grieves me, and I feel for you.

How can you be so dismissive of other loving followers of Christ? How can you want to destroy their faith and experience in Jesus? How can you condemn righteous loving behaviour as evil and claim to know the very source of this righteous loving behaviour?

 

[LightLoveHope]

Excuses

I am judging believers because they are not listening to Jesus.
I am not saying believers are spreading satans lies, they are not believers.

These are excuses that have to be used carefully. There is always a sense in which other people and how they relate to a particular view needs to be understood and put into context. It can easily be a variation of expressing faith is not the problem but the sin and heresy that under pins the position, or the fruit the attitude produces. It is here often things become very clear cut.

I am caught challenging a group because their approach is to disown righteous loving believers of Jesus. Their faith can be 100% correct, but the flaw or evil is shown only in their condemnation of the wrong things. The pharisees were caught in this. They taught righteousness and being loving and following God, yet in their hearts had no love and forgiveness for others, did not resolve their hearts, being full of greed and self indulgence. It was the resolution of their hearts that mattered.

And they showed their failure by rejecting Jesus, by wanting Him dead, to catch Him out, to find a flaw in His theology so His authority could be undermined, even when He performed miracles, forgave sins, showed what loving transformation was all about.

No matter where we are on the road in Jesus, we can close our hearts and become like the pharisees, and believe we have obtained all we need and refuse to let God continue His work in our hearts. We find it so hard to accept this is a walk, a life, a reality which is alive for as long as we spend time in Him.

But think about this. He is the Lord. He is the source of all, and we are in His presence, privileged, called, anointed, caught in love. Yet we so easily go cold, let worries come in, spend time in other things, worry and fret. To not spend time, to not exalt Him is unfortunately to deny the very things we hold dear. Lord forgive us that we so easily get distracted. Help us dear Lord to keep you in the centre and let your love and life reign in our Hearts, Amen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"What is clear from your last sentence is how fragile you are (or were) and explains your single focus on emotions."

We are as people very fragile.

You are free to speak for yourself, thank you.

Most people have a crisis at some time in their lives.
Everything that forms part of us adds to this strength or weakness.

From the bulk of your posts, your crises have wounded you deeply and you haven't recovered from them yet.

When crises come, instead of folding up into a ball and sucking your thumb, the believer is supposed to apply God's word, which stabilizes them and gets them through the crisis without scars.

Part of our faith in Jesus is recognition of love and support through Jesus is part of our very existence.

I think it's obvious that in placing one's faith and trust in Christ for salvation, they DO recognize the love of God. John 3:16

It is the ability of people to say, "I do not need ..... I can stand alone ..... I do not need to change ..... I did it my way ......"

What are you talking about? This doesn't even fit the context of your post.

Emotions are the belief we are safe, behind our homes, walls, jobs, families.

Your claim here is untrue. That may be what you believe, but it isn't true. Emotions have NOTHING to do with being safe. God is our safety. He said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". You can take that to the bank. Or fall apart when threatened.

But this is just a dream and delusion. When the storms come, and rain beats down on us, we find our foundations are washed away and we stand exposed, alone, in pieces. The promise Jesus gives is when we build this emotional foundation on Him, and obey His words we stand strong at the end.

It surely ISN'T our emotions that we "stand strong" on. It's our faith in Christ and all of God's promises in the Bible. But you don't seem to understand this.

But if one ignores our emotional existence and its foundation, and disobey the foundation, we find we are washed away and ruined.

What does "disobey the foundation" mean? It sounds like psycho-babble to me. Please explain with clear and direct words.

The reason why you do not understand security in Christ, and how your heart knows this security at an emotional level, is because you shut emotions out and do not understand them.

This is not only laughable, but sadly delusional. My security in Christ is BASED on what the Bible says, NOT on what I "feel" at the moment.

And once again, you have severely misjudged me. My security in Christ is SOLID. Much thicker than what's between your ears.

Don't you realize that the bulk of the crowd who believes that salvation can be lost have NO security simply because they are driven by their very unstable emotions?

To replace this lack of empathy and understanding you cling to a doctrine of belief security and disown anyone who does not agree with you.

Here is what I "cling" to; the promises found in the Bible. But that doesn't seem to mean much to you, since you're so focused on how you are "feeling" at the moment.

I believe in eternal security because that is exactly what Jesus taught in John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47, 10:28. And John reiterated in 1 John 5:11, 13. And Peter expressed in 1 Pet 1:23. And Paul explained in Romans 6:23 with 11:29 and 8:35-39.

But this condemnation of others is hurtful and damaging, founded on your own lack of empathy or understanding.

This is a prime example of your problem. You're so emotionally driven, that you can't see any objectivity or facts. I've NOT condemned anyone, including you. I HAVE defended the truth of Scripture on the subject of eternal security, which your emotions have blinded you to.

So rather than letting me walk with the Lord and knows His Spirit and ministry in my life, you would condemn as speaking satans lies and denying Jesus.

How is rejecting what Jesus taught very plainly NOT denying Him????

This accusation grieves me, and I feel for you.

It was designed to get your attention. If your grief has gotten your attention, good.

But don't waste your emotions on me, please.

How can you be so dismissive of other loving followers of Christ?

Who have I dismissed? What I DO dismiss is FALSE DOCTRINE. But you can't see the difference, due to your over abundant emotions.

How can you want to destroy their faith and experience in Jesus?

On the contrary, by teaching CORRECT DOCTRINE, I'm trying to BUILD UP YOUR FAITH in Jesus. As it is, you STILL DON'T believe what He teaches. How does that build up your faith in Him? It doesn't, simple as that.

How can you condemn righteous loving behaviour as evil and claim to know the very source of this righteous loving behaviour?

How can you call rejecting the teaching of Jesus on eternal security as "righteous loving behavior"?

Does Satan want to you to believe everything Jesus taught, or just some things?

When you deny eternal security, you are NOT demonstrating "righteous loving behavior" at all. Just the opposite.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Excuses

I am judging believers because they are not listening to Jesus.

Those who don't believe what Jesus teaches about eternal security are NOT LISTENING TO JESUS.

I am caught challenging a group because their approach is to disown righteous loving believers of Jesus.

Those who deny what Jesus taught about eternal security are NOT "righteous loving believers of Jesus".

Their faith can be 100% correct, but the flaw or evil is shown only in their condemnation of the wrong things.

To deny what Jesus taught is to condemn what He taught. And those who deny what Jesus taught about eternal security do NOT have a faith that is "100% correct".

And they showed their failure by rejecting Jesus

You have repeatedly rejected the teaching of Jesus about eternal security, preferring your own emotional bias to what He taught.

 

[JLB777]

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

OK, for the color coded explanation.

Yes it is those who hear His voice and follow Him that are qualified as sheep.


Hear means listen and obey.


Those who listen for a while then begin to stray away, end up becoming lost.


His sheep who become lost, must repent, turn back to Him, are remain lost.



“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• Jesus is teaching His disciples, the Church, what to do if one of His sheep should go astray, and how it pleases heaven if they should repent

Matthew goes into more detail about how a person is to be restored, as well as the principle of forgiveness for this restoration to take place.


James also deals with this, and gives us some insight, as well.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17

1. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

2. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’


3. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.



James says it this way -


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• A brother who wanders from the truth, is a sinner in need of repentance, or he will perish.

JLB