2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[Gr8Grace]

The above statement was stated as winner by Free.

Because he has studied to be approved. It's sad that no others rated it as "winner."

Odd he denied all sin was forgiven through the cross.

What isn't odd, is that you focus on others. And will NEVER just deal with the point made.

Study up a bit on........... Atonement, propitiation,justification, reconciliation and forgiveness. The Lord Jesus Christ paid for ALL sin. If you don't like that statement and FACT.......show how it is not true. You won't be able to.

This lack of clarity from the "objectivity doctrine" and "facts" preacher is just hypocricy.
He is completely emotionally biased to his approved of group and position, and the others.

As a rational, sane person, I don't know how you can utter these words with a straight face.

The gospel is about taking us from A to B.
If you deny B has any relevance, you are lost, because that was the whole point.

The Gospel is about THE LORD JESUS CHRIST taking us from point A(unsaved) to point B(saved/sealed/never perishing/eternal life/no condemnation.)
Point B obviously has no relevance to you.

And from our perspective, you have become an enemy of the gospel, a divisive individual and a false teacher. gnostic ideas were rejected because they refuse to resolve and take responsibility for sin, and scape goat sin onto the flesh rather than learning to walk, to have faith and be transformed through an open heart.

All you have learned to do is walk like all the other workers for do. Walk in the Spirit and you will see REAL transformation.

The idolatry of the self.

Is all you do. The Lord Jesus Christ isn't even a close second in your 'walk.'

I am a sinner, no one can touch me or resolve my issues. God gives me a free pass to heaven, so you evil sin condemners can rot in hell, because you are the enemy, spreading satans lies that I am a sinner doomed to hell because I refuse to resolve my issues, and Jesus still accepts me.

Perfect example of idolatry of self.

The trouble is within this belief system is the lie that destroys and condemns the believer. They claim to know Jesus, but He is just a sop to their lifestyle, and their rebellion all dressed up in religion. They are just nice enough to carry this off, because they have a church background and know how to play the game.

This pretty much describes the theology and belief system that YOU subscribe to.

 

[JLB777]

You're just real funny.


Absolutely.

And those who are IN Christ are SEALED with the Holy Spirit, who positions the believer INTO Christ. And this sealing is a deposit which GARANTEES the inheritance for the day of redemption of God's possession.

Doesn't sound like a sealed believer can EVER perish.

Eph 1:13,14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Did you notice that even grieving the Holy Spirit doesn't break the "seal".

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Here's the color coded explanation:

The red words speak to WHEN or the MOMENT one is sealed.
The blue words speak of the Holy Spirit as a seal or mark that seals the believer IN Christ. Also, this sealing is a deposit that guarantees something.
The green words speak of what is guaranteed: the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

All this proves eternal security, so your man made theology that salvation can be lost is revealed.


And this is EVERYONE who has NEVER believed in Christ.

Because those who HAVE believed, ARE sealed and GUARANTEED an inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.


Refers to believers, who are sealed IN Christ (have the Son) and unbelievers, who are NOT sealed IN Christ and will perish.


All I can explain is the stupidity of claiming that given Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, that anyone who has believed, can be unsealed. Now, that is stupidity.

Is that what you're trying to demonstrate over and over?

Also, what I can explain is a believer who is IN fellowship with Christ and a believer who is NOT in fellowship, or OUT of fellowship with Christ.

The former is filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and walking by the Spirit (Gal 5:16), and the latter is grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) and quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

Any more questions?

You have already exposed yourself and your “doctrine”, that teaches people they have eternal life apart from Christ.


Your done.



JLB

 

[Gr8Grace]

You have already exposed yourself and your “doctrine”, that teaches people they have eternal life apart from Christ.

Your gonna be shining his shoes with your tongue in the eternal state if you don't get back to the simplicity of Christ.
2 Cor 11:3~~New American Standard Bible
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Because he has studied to be approved. It's sad that no others rated it as "winner."

What isn't odd, is that you focus on others. And will NEVER just deal with the point made.

Study up a bit on........... Atonement, propitiation,justification, reconciliation and forgiveness. The Lord Jesus Christ paid for ALL sin. If you don't like that statement and FACT.......show how it is not true. You won't be able to.

As a rational, sane person, I don't know how you can utter these words with a straight face.

The Gospel is about THE LORD JESUS CHRIST taking us from point A(unsaved) to point B(saved/sealed/never perishing/eternal life/no condemnation.)
Point B obviously has no relevance to you.

All you have learned to do is walk like all the other workers for do. Walk in the Spirit and you will see REAL transformation.

Is all you do. The Lord Jesus Christ isn't even a close second in your 'walk.'
Perfect example of idolatry of self.

This pretty much describes the theology and belief system that YOU subscribe to.

Not exactly a response to my points. But then I have come to expect this from self worshippers, who believe they can leave the flesh behind and their pure spirit self will be saved, when they will be condemned as evil doers.

 

[LightLoveHope]

And that is the problem. You keep wanting to wander all over the place, while I am trying to stay ON TRACK with the Bible. I don't care a bit about false doctrines of any kind.

Hi Free,

How do you know what is false and what is true?
If you cared for truth, you would be prepared to talk about things outside the bible, upon which the bible comments but is not the source or definition of.

It sounds like you have exalted your understanding above "truth" and your definition of the word of God as God speaking. Unfortunately the very language of scripture is based on the cultural meaning of the words and the life people are leading. So we only understand because God has placed His word in our world and culture. To therefore grasp its meaning we need to understand the culture into which it is expressed. Wisdom comes when we see both the culture, and Gods intention for us to follow within this culture.

All your "applications" here are totally phony.

Instead of "it will go away/be no more/am not guilty", how about inserting "God will provide for me"? That's what faith does. Which it appears you had no idea.

I am making a point. We can change how we approach things and tackle them. Our reaction is not passive but active, seeing God and His will working out and learning how to submit and bring praise to His name.

An open heart looks and engages with God seeing how He is working.
You want to use words like "totally phony" "I don't care"
It sounds like you are putting in boundaries, because you fear if you do not they will not happen, and you may be deceived and it all might fall apart. Oh no.

Except faith is trust in Jesus, and knowing we are in His hands.
Years ago I had a choice. Abandon the security of a religious doctrinal position and be open to other ways of thinking and seeing. The risk was I might become something else, yet I knew, if Jesus was the truth, I would be safe. And that was the crucial issue. I believe Jesus is the truth so I am safe.

Emotions are scary, they can tear you life up, destroy all you links and bring ruin to who you are. I know what mental illness does to people, I have seen it.

But Jesus is the answer, the way and the life. So I wonder what holds you back, and why the reluctance just to talk openly, and not be so defended?

 

[LightLoveHope]

Perfect example of idolatry of self.

This is the point my friend.
Who is putting self on the altar as a sacrifice of praise and who is saying they are perfect and ok, and refusing to confront and be purified of sinful behaviour?

I have been told I am a liar and hypocrite, lost in sin and this individual got angry, so angry they had to stop interacting, to prove I was a sinner sinning, while that is exactly what they were doing, and openly confessed as such.

So a hypocrite takes it upon themselves to condemn a righteous, blameless Child of God to be a sinner with no evidence, while they themselves admit to continual sinful behaviour with no desire to resolve it. Do you see the complete self condemning stupidity of this? Only the clean, open hearted, loving followers of Jesus stand a chance to bring light and truth to others. So we have to first clean the inside of the bowl before we can start sharing and helping others to see the King.

Sin is evil, and only causes harm. It is not about expressing our true passions, living life to the full and having fun, it is about inappropriate behaviour without boundaries, which go too far and lead to death. Evil people will always say they are just living as everyone wishes they could live and then literally dying, because they do too many dangerous things, just one of which can kill them and in the end it does.

So this disagreement is about things central to our lives and how we interact. For this reason, we will not stop sharing about love and righteous walking as this is the way of Jesus. Amen, Praise be to His name.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Odd he denied all sin was forgiven through the cross.

What's odd is your ignorance of what Scripture says about forgiveness and what it is based on.

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

This verse is clear and straightforward. We are forgiven on the basis of faith in Him. This includes what He did on the cross, but the means of forgiveness is faith, not His death.

You just keep demonstrating over and over how little of the Bible you know.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have already exposed yourself and your “doctrine”, that teaches people they have eternal life apart from Christ.
Your done.
JLB

Only an idiot would come to such a conclusion.

What you've done, and done so repeatedly, is demonstrate your disdain for Scripture by the following:

1. rejecting the clear teaching that being sealed with the Holy Spirit GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2. rejecting the clear teaching that everyone given eternal life by Jesus shall never perish. John 10:28
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The red words are statements of facts. Facts that you have consistently rejected.

What drives your animosity towards God's word?

 

[FreeGrace2]

JLB777 said: ↑
You have already exposed yourself and your “doctrine”, that teaches people they have eternal life apart from Christ.

Your gonna be shining his shoes with your tongue in the eternal state if you don't get back to the simplicity of Christ.

2 Cor 11:3~~New American Standard Bible
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

Great verse!!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi Free,

How do you know what is false and what is true?

This is a very good question.

I know the difference by "rightly dividing the Word of TRUTH". 2 Tim 2:15.

What I DON'T do is determine what I "feel" about things.

If you cared for truth, you would be prepared to talk about things outside the bible, upon which the bible comments but is not the source or definition of.

Well, there's you problem. You continue to seem more interested in anything "outside the bible", rather than focusing on what the Bible says.

However, I will not be deterred regarding your preferences. I will continue to quote verses that REFUTE your emotions.

It sounds like you have exalted your understanding above "truth" and your definition of the word of God as God speaking.

Your "hearing" is delusional. I exalt God's Word, which is TRUTH. I don't have a "definition of the word of God". I have the Word of God. Can you understand the difference?

Unfortunately the very language of scripture is based on the cultural meaning of the words and the life people are leading. So we only understand because God has placed His word in our world and culture. To therefore grasp its meaning we need to understand the culture into which it is expressed. Wisdom comes when we see both the culture, and Gods intention for us to follow within this culture.

Is this your excuse for your lack of interest in what the Bible says?

I am making a point.

You've made a lot of them. All of which I've refuted from Scripture.

We can change how we approach things and tackle them. Our reaction is not passive but active, seeing God and His will working out and learning how to submit and bring praise to His name.

The ONLY WAY to accomplish this is to KNOW what His Word says. Which you've shown a clear lack of interest.

An open heart looks and engages with God seeing how He is working.

How about open eyes? Ever thought about that? Probably not. Too busy emoting.

Here's what Paul prayed for the Ephesian believers:
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 1:18

You want to use words like "totally phony" "I don't care"

In relation to your points and all those "others" that you keep bringing up.

It sounds like you are putting in boundaries, because you fear if you do not they will not happen, and you may be deceived and it all might fall apart.

Your sentence does not make sense. Please re-phrase if you really want to communicate.

Except faith is trust in Jesus, and knowing we are in His hands.
Years ago I had a choice. Abandon the security of a religious doctrinal position and be open to other ways of thinking and seeing.

And just what was this "religious doctrinal position" that you speak of?

The risk was I might become something else, yet I knew, if Jesus was the truth, I would be safe. And that was the crucial issue. I believe Jesus is the truth so I am safe.

All who have believed in Him ARE sealed IN Him, and shall never perish. But you've been clear that you don't believe what the Bible says, in spite of all the times I've shared the verses.

Emotions are scary, they can tear you life up, destroy all you links and bring ruin to who you are. I know what mental illness does to people, I have seen it.

Now you're taking my view on emotions.

They are also unstable and unreliable. TRUTH is stable and reliable. Every time.

But Jesus is the answer, the way and the life.

Then why don't you believe what He says about recipients of eternal life?

So I wonder what holds you back, and why the reluctance just to talk openly, and not be so defended?

I've been totally open, so I have no idea why your emotions have gotten so sidetracked. But, knowing that emotions are unstable and unreliable, I'm not surprised. I have been directly honest with you and your emotional views.

Nothing is "holding" me back. That doesn't even make sense. But then, emotions don't make sense. They can't think.

 

[JLB777]

Your gonna be shining his shoes with your tongue in the eternal state if you don't get back to the simplicity of Christ.
2 Cor 11:3~~New American Standard Bible
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



JLB

 

[JLB777]

Only an idiot would come to such a conclusion.

What you've done, and done so repeatedly, is demonstrate your disdain for Scripture by the following:

1. rejecting the clear teaching that being sealed with the Holy Spirit GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2. rejecting the clear teaching that everyone given eternal life by Jesus shall never perish. John 10:28
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The red words are statements of facts. Facts that you have consistently rejected.

What drives your animosity towards God's word?

Please stop taking away from God’s word, to prop up your deceitful man made doctrine.


John 10:28 does not say that.

You intentionally butchered that verse to deceitfully hide the truth.




And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28


You intentionally left out the word “and”, because verse 28 is connected to verse 27.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Verse 28 is the result of obeying verse 27.



Once again you have exposed yourself and your doctrine as false.




JLB

 

[LightLoveHope]

Well, there's you problem. You continue to seem more interested in anything "outside the bible", rather than focusing on what the Bible says.

However, I will not be deterred regarding your preferences. I will continue to quote verses that REFUTE your emotions.

I do wonder how you think you have any authority at all.
Unless you understand your audience you could be using the wrong words in the wrong way. Equally the words you are reading with your own background could have meant something else to the writer.

The fact that you deny this factual reality, when you claim to be driven by facts shows you do not know how in a subjective world we deduce what the truth is.

You claim to have a university education yet you do not follow the normal critical thinking approach, to check the basis of all propositions and ideas. I have spoken to flat earthers who show behaviour just like yourself. It is always educational to meet people such as these, yet there is no progress until the basic steps of logic are followed which trump assumptions and pre-conceived ideas.

In summary you would be happy to speak a lie, if you believed it came from scripture and your emotions supported you in such a proposition. The idea you could be wrong in this situation, is something you seem to be unable to accept.

 

[Gr8Grace]

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



JLB

And the million dollar question. Exactly how do you follow His commandments?

 

[LightLoveHope]

My approach to truth

Everything I think is totally in my own head, therefore totally subjective.
Only once I have checked and confirmed the logic and basis of my conclusions can I come to a conclusion about anything.

Often critical failures happen in life because simple check lists are not gone through and assumptions made. I have driven through red lights in a car on this very basis, which is always a humbling experience and confirms our constant subjectivity.

Faith by its nature relies totally on our subjective observations and conclusions, reading of scripture and building models of life and theology for ourselves. These are therefore more vulnerable to mistakes and simple changes of emphasis that have major implications on how we live and interact. It means care always has to be taken, and the awareness that we could be wrong.

Paul encourages us to test everything, to be open, generous and caring. So Amen to that.

 

[Gr8Grace]

This is the point my friend.
Who is putting self on the altar as a sacrifice of praise and who is saying they are perfect and ok, and refusing to confront and be purified of sinful behaviour?

This is yet another perfect example of self-righteousness/idolatry of self Peter. AND this is yet another example of you not paying attention to ANYTHING we post.

Believers who don't recognize when they grieve or quench the Spirit and don't resolve that issue(1 John 1:9) with God can look forward to discipline,loss of blessing and reward. And being just plain miserable in this life.
Ponder this just a bit Peter. Please. This is not just the equivalent of 'losing a lollipop' these are consequences that have ETERNAL value to us.......But you will still sit on your high horse and make false allegations against us like........," They say it is all finished and there is no consequence for believers. They say sin all you want, it is all ok." Geesh.

I have been told I am a liar

Freegrace and I have said COUNTLESS times that believers have tremendous consequences for choosing not to live in Gods plan. We have said countless times that we need to confess our sins to God. 1 John 1:9

And in your quote you insinuate that we teach." Oh, It's all ok, there are no consequences for sin, and believers never have to do anything again."

I see 2 options here:
1. You are not reading our posts.
Or
2. Your lying.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Now you're taking my view on emotions.

They are also unstable and unreliable. TRUTH is stable and reliable. Every time.

Here is the problem. Emotions are part of who we are, the encapsulate our interactions with the world and how we are coping. They also help us decide what is true and what is not.

If you suffer from agriphobia going outside is scary. Now doing anything has a risk but here the risk of going outside is so great, it is better to stay inside. The real risk is the same as being inside, but not for the sufferer. So their truth is it is dangerous and to not admit this is to lie.

Now in scripture we are told we will be judged for our sin. God judges people all the time and people die. It is our emotions that reassure us God loves us, and it is not risky to read the bible but actually a good thing.

When someone says this is the only way to understand this verse, what they are really saying is they are scared to understand this verse in any other way that the one they say it is saying. But this is an emotional insecure way of looking at scripture and truth, and is only resorted to by people who are scared.

And this fear extends to making people who disagree with them evil liars, who are intent on just undermining the truth, and are influenced by evil spirits etc if not possessed. Funnily this is exactly what I have been suggested of having.

But all these are ideas and propositions are founded on emotions and how emotions mold our conclusions and what we accept or deny. For instance if the bible says 4,000 years ago a flood took place, yet one sees only limited evidence of it, you look for other interpretations, like a localised event.
Another for instance is the sun going backwards in the sky, or the sun standing still while a battle took place. Physically these events could not have taken place within our current understanding, because the earth could not stop rotating or the sun start moving. It could be an optical illusion or even a perception illusion by the writer.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Poetic meaning

They shouted, "This is the voice of a god, not of a man."
Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.
Acts 12:22-24

Here is Herod being acclaimed beyond his worth and God judging him. In other sources it says he was taken ill and over a week died.

Now both talk about Herod dying, one emphasising judgement and the other he got ill.

When I read it I had the picture of Herod being struck by a bullet falling to the ground and worms appearing eating him infront of the people. But more likely Luke is expressing Herods death was as a judgement and he is now being eaten by worms in the tomb.

So interpretation and intent in passages is important, especially when there is more that one way of understanding the meaning. This passes many believers by, because they want a black and white answer to complex issues which will never be clear cut.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Freegrace and I have said COUNTLESS times that believers have tremendous consequences for choosing not to live in Gods plan. We have said countless times that we need to confess our sins to God. 1 John 1:9

The problem is with your defence is what exactly do you lose for not following Jesus?
You simply do not know, you just state it as a fact.

Jesus and apostles warn us we are to be like Jesus. Now if you took this seriously you would begin to ask, what was Jesus like? Forgiving, kind, gentle, compassionate, loving, sinless, sincere, truthful, meek, able to empathise and mourn with those who mourn and rejoice with those who rejoice.

And to not be Christs ambassadors, to not walk in His ways is literally to not be a follower, to not have the Holy Spirit and to not know God.

And this is your true intent. To suggest we are self righteous rather than just humble broken and healed saints following our King. And in so doing making us to be evil liars, and hypocrites who doom people to hell and ourselves.

If you hold that sinning is ok, and acceptable, part of human nature, impossible to reform or change, then you do not have faith in Jesus.

Too many believers from congregations who preach security and stay sinners shows this way of teaching is not christian. It is a powerless faith with no reality, while claiming the highest authority, it has to deny all the verses on living a pure Holy life. To put it another way, I knew a believer who would go from a worship meeting into a brothel, satisfying two needs, spiritual and sexual. In your view he is saved, in mine, he is deeply disturbed and unlikely anything he is doing is related to Jesus, more likely he is just delusional with a religious language to explain his behaviour. I have heard the ptsd creates this distorted chaotic life styles which seem natural to the person, but are just disfunctional to everyone else.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4
JLB

Why are you so dismissive of Scripture?