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2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by FreeGrace2, Aug 21, 2018.

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  1. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    Thankyou for demonstrating another propoganda statement.
    How dare you add to Christs salvation!!!! You are destroying it, blaspheming it!!!!

    This idea is the gnostic notion, God is so above us, Holy, other, and we are so lost, impure, turned aside, that anything we do is us adding to His work. Except that is exactly what Jesus has chosen to do, to make us equals with Him. He calls us friends, He desires to share His decisions with us, to see as we see.

    For this to be possible, we have to become like Him, transformed from sinner into saint, once enslaved to sin, but now desiring love and the best in every situation.

    Paul summarised this need for ministry to the body, to see what must be done and worked through.

    Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
    I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness-- the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints.
    Colossians 1:24-26

    The heresy is to believe that the fruit of cross is not part of salvation and being one with God.
    So without preaching, teaching, ministry, fellowship, love, sacrifice, commitment, perseverance the church would not exist. Jesus opened the door to give access to the Father, we still have to do everything else in His strength, through His Spirit, as our sacrifice of praise.

    But to the super spiritual gnostic, that is polluting Gods work with the evil flesh, making the Holy tainted with the selfish desires of man. And this does sound appealing when you see our failures and sin without communion with God, but the glorious gospel is Jesus calls us to be a part of our salvation and His work.

    Jesus wants us to grow in love and how we want to express it through our individuality.

    But here is the problem. The anger the gnostics have is very great, and they believe the can righteously condemn those who "add to" Christs work, just like the pharisees could not cope with Jesus claiming to be the Son of God and exercising spiritual authority in forgiving sins.
     
  2. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    So easy believism in its true form.
    The trouble is this is just saying sinners are as they are, and God has forgiven them, so lets all just go to heaven.

    Jonah and Nineveh. The cost for them to avoid judgement was repentance, changed behaviour and grief over their sin. Without this God would destroy them.

    In this odd language, where to do anything from a human perspective is earning Gods reaction therefore is evil, taking away the right of God to do what He wants, is just not understanding Gods declared desire. Sin destroys us, it takes all we want and makes us agents of pain and horror.

    The Lord in His mercy, forgiveness and grace desires that we listen and learn from Him and choose to walk in His ways, that is best for us and gives us life, or face judgement and destruction.

    This debate between the two sides will never stop, because gnostics hate righteous walkers.
    In their mind 2 + 2 = 4

    But they see the speck, accepting and walking in grace, and miss the plank, a cleansed open heart which needs to be Holy, pure and flowing in love. Without this, easy believism is the only way, because with a rotten heart nothing you do will help.
     
  3. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    We are called to add to it, because of it, and here I am doing exactly that, Halleluyah.

    We are His people, called by His name, to declare His promises to those who walk in His ways.
    Our privilege is to be His ambassadors to man kind, to bring the message of hope that lives within us, to struggle with sin and our desires, to win and work through to victory and overcoming in His strength, because of His work in our open hearts, freely given, obedient and in service.

    And though people declare the are correcting others, in reality they are preaching a gnostic gospel of passive giving up, and letting God change lost sinners without admitting this is impossible.

    One teacher of this group declared as you grow more, realising your lostness, you see why Jesus is needed more to save you. Another way of describing this, is as you discover your closed defended heart betrays all you claim in victory and spiritual maturity, there is no way out unless you open your heart and let the hurts and pains, sins hidden and kept, to be healed, repented of and your heat cleansed and made whole.

    What is funny is being quoted at about the pharisees not cleansing their hearts as if this is not what I am preaching. It shows the people pushing these ideas do not know the very things they are claiming. If they did they would be agreeing with me.

    The stubbornness of the lost heart is difficult to describe, because it will do everything to avoid the emotional crisis of conversion. And conversion is capitulation to the King, giving up our pretence of coping, of being ok, of having things sorted and understood, and letting His way rule.

    You cannot enter heaven unless you become like a child and learn again how to live.
    These are the emotional truths of the Kingdom, which cannot be broken, because they describe what and who we are, and the road we must walk.

    I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it. Luke 18:17

    I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
    Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
    Matt 18:2-4
     
  4. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Having looked over all the following Scriptures, it is clear that there is NO CLEAR STATEMENT about salvation being lost. None.

    And, Jesus couldn't have been MORE CLEAR about the result of receiving the gift of eternal life; the recipients shall never perish. John 10:28
     
  5. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    LightLoveHope said:
    Salvation is not free.
    It seems a lot of people sure want to.
     
  6. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    What's glaringly clear is that you haven't provided ANY evidence from the Bible for your views.

    Instead, your views have been repeatedly refuted FROM Scripture over and over.
     
  7. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    The sad truth is this is not an argument, and all the scripture provided you dismiss as if your view is the only view.

    A pompous man speaks, there is no evidence. There has always been evidence, but it takes a man after Gods heart to see it and find it.

    Paul and apostles preached walk the path. Leave the path and it is all pointless. They never had the idea you could obtain a place without question.
    "work out your salvation" Phil 2:12
    "for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain." Gal 2:2
    "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." 2 Tim 2:19
    By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. 1 Cor 15:2
    That is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.'
    So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'"
    See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
    Hebrews 3:10-12

    It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
    2 Peter 2:21

    So who are these false teachers who would rather preach security above Holiness and purity?
    "just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do"
    1 Peter 1:15

    For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
    1 Thess 4:7

    Scripture is clear. Be Holy. Without holiness and cleansing everything else one sees will be distorted.
     
  8. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    What is clear, is my experience in the Lord has deniers, because of their experiences and interpretations.

    We are simply called to understand these differences and calmly separate from those who wish to spread division and condemnation.

    If anybody praises Jesus and worships the King, listens to His word and wants to know more, Amen.
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    a-bloodless-christ-less-gospel-is-neither-fit-for-the-13496265.png
     
  10. Gr8Grace

    Gr8Grace Well-Known Member

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    And it seems a lot of people don't even understand what He did and went through for us. If they did, they darn sure wouldn't be saying they need to add something.
    Psalm 22~~1My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
    Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.

    2O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
    And by night, but I have no rest.

    3Yet You are holy,
    O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.

    4In You our fathers trusted;
    They trusted and You delivered them.

    5To You they cried out and were delivered;
    In You they trusted and were not disappointed.

    6But I am a worm and not a man,
    A reproach of men and despised by the people.

    7All who see me sneer at me;
    They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,

    8“Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him;
    Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”

    9Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
    You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.

    10Upon You I was cast from birth;
    You have been my God from my mother’s womb.

    11Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
    For there is none to help.

    12Many bulls have surrounded me;
    Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.

    13They open wide their mouth at me,
    As a ravening and a roaring lion.

    14I am poured out like water,
    And all my bones are out of joint;
    My heart is like wax;
    It is melted within me.

    15My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
    And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
    And You lay me in the dust of death.

    16For dogs have surrounded me;
    A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
    They pierced my hands and my feet.

    17I can count all my bones.
    They look, they stare at me;

    18They divide my garments among them,
    And for my clothing they cast lots.
     
  11. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    There are two ways of saying this.
    If Jesus opened the door, empowering us to walk as children of the light, to do works He has set before us, then to deny this is to deny His work.

    If Jesus gave us a gift which only can be realised at the resurrection, while today we have to suffer slavery to sin, and all mankind is just living is denial, powerless to fight sin and gain power, and only hypocrites claim such power, then there is nothing to add because we are tainted.

    So of course as you hold to the 2nd view, your view is people are trying to justify themselves while actually being lost.

    But God declares through the sacrifice system, there is way of walking and being before Him that is pleasing, though not without its troubles, fights and issues, which He will resolve, if we come humbly before Him.

    So Jesus calls us, to open the door and ask Him in, to be open hearted, to share and learn His love and life. And there is no guarantee, except this is the way to life, and our only Hope.

    The parable of the seed and sower, that many will give it a go, gain a picture, and then fade away. But there is no other way to find life and the King of Kings. If one feels defeat and failure, that is the starting place where He can work, with you to show you the easy way, the way of peace and love. Where we see struggle, He sees hope, and a small change of view will bring victory.

    Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
    Rev 3:20-21

    Wow. Open ones heart, overcome the challenge at we will sit with Him on His throne.
    What a friend, what a King, Praise His Holy Name.
     
  12. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Of course there are multiple views. Everyone has an opinion. Does yours reconcile with EVERY OTHER VERSE in the Bible? No, as I've repeatedly shown.

    Does mine? Yes, as I've repeatedly shown.

    No, the evidence is found in clear and plain verses. Which you have not orovided.

    Where does Paul say leaving is pointless? He speaks of God's discipline for His disobedient children in 1 Cor 11:30. Weakness, sickness, and physical death.

    I've shown you, but you just aren't listening or interested.

    Do you which tense this verse is referring to? Do you know HOW MANY tenses there are regarding salvation?

    What Paul feared was being "disqualified for the prize". Reward in eternity.

    Do you notice what believers MUST DO? And is there anything in that chapter that says that those who turn away lose salvation? No.

    First, the sentence is a "first class condition", which assumes it is true.

    Second, the 'hold firmly' is a poor translation. It's a single word in the Greek and means to "possess". Nothing about having a tight grip in order to be saved.

    Most of Hebrews is about eternal reward. How about reading to the end of chapter 3:
    16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?
    17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness?
    18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?
    19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

    v.16 and 17 establishes the Exodus generation, who failed to trust God repeatedly.

    Now, consider v.18. Guess what? Even Moses wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.

    And v.19 directly relates to Moses as well as the rest of the Exodus generation, except Joshua and Caleb, the only 2 adult Jews from the first generation of Jews to enter the land.

    So, if all this is a reference to salvation, explain how Moses didn't enter the land because of unbelief, yet was with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration.

    Peter's point here is that those who get saved and then return to their former ways, end up in a worse mess in this life than if they were in before the got saved.

    What it doesn't say anything about is losing salvation.

    Excuse me, but which verses are you referring to, about false teahers preaching security?

    Are you NOT aware that your question includes the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, since He taught eternal security so very clearly in John 10:28.

    Does the verse say "be holy in order to be saved"? No, of course not.

    Yes, all believers are called and even chosen to live holy lives.

    But no verses says to live holy lives in order to enter heaven.

    True. Yet, none of your post even mentions loss of salvation.

    So, why do you continue to believe such a thing?
     
  13. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    How an one claim to praise and worship King Jesus yet NOT BELIEVE what He teaches about eternal security so clearly in John 10:28?

    That's hypocritical. Saying one thing, but doing quite another.
     
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    .
     
  15. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Why would anything think that either Gr8Grace or I deny that??

    I ask again: how can one who claims to "praise His holy name" CONTINUE to deny what He taught so clearly in John 10:28?

    The only answer is hypocrisy.
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Because all these "you can lose your salvation" threads are based on a straw man of some born again Christian living in unrepentant heinous sins. It's what I call the sunk OSAS-antinomian construct of easy-believism. Where OSAS-antinomianism is pawned off as the doctrines of Grace.
     
  17. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    I have wondered at how you appear to miss my faith and confession.
    I am secure in Christ because I abide in Him and He in me, and He has promised that those who abide will gain eternal life and never perish.

    I wonder how many sentences have to be spoken before all the nuances of walking with Christ are completed. The answer probably is never. Moses knew God very well, but sinned by striking the rock. So there is never absolute safety dealing with perfection and who our Lord is. He is wild, He is righteous and infinite, and we are limited and mortal.

    So you are mistaken that I do not see what Jesus is saying in His reassurance of His sheep.

    And you say I am living in hypocrisy. While actually I am not if I follow who Jesus is and His commands.

    There is a problem, that you again highlight. I talk of following and praising Jesus, you talk of hypocrisy, and thereby condemnation without any evidence. This is both untrue and divisive.

    Schizophrenics do what you are doing. Take a minor point and make it into the end of the world. If you follow their insane logic each step makes some sense, but step back, and it is all an invention.

    Why do you search for division, accusation and sin where there is none? It appears almost pathological.
     
  18. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    Here is a conflation of rebellion against God and a sin of frustration.
    Moses was judged for His sin, and told he would not see coming into the promised land.
    That is quite different from those judged as rebellious and killed like Korah, who went to judgement.

    The whole sacrifical system is for identification of sin and paying for putting it right.
    The rebellion by many in Israel was total rejection of God, which cannot be put right.

    "Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?"
    Numbers 20:10

    Moses is told the Lord will enable Moses and Aaron on commanding the rock it will bring out water.
    He talks as if he is bringing the water out, rather than the Lord in His holiness is bringing this solution to the need of the people, a work of grace and mercy. So the Lord says the price for this lack of trust is not to cross the Jordan.

    It is odd to me, if you recognise the Lord rebukes His people and also rejects and kills some, that you think there is not a difference between Moses and the people of Israel. In your world Korah is in heaven, along with every other rebellious Israelite, rather than cast off for all eternity.

    Somehow you have tamed God into a docile being, caught in His promises and unable to execute judgement because of a promise. I fear for your future, because God has no partiality, and judges sin for what it is.
     
  19. Gr8Grace

    Gr8Grace Well-Known Member

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    Do not grieve the Spirit.
    Do not quench the Spirit.
    Be filled with the Spirit.
    Walk in the Spirit.

    4.

    But yeah, for those who think their walk gets them salvation......It will be tens of thousand of pages and all subjective, so we would have to add another infinite number of pages.

    Just think, follow the 4 sentences above.......And EVERYTHING else falls into place. Don't follow His simple plan and it all becomes an endless quagmire.
     
  20. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I haven't missed anything. Eep where your views are in direct conflict with what Jesus taught.

    Do you realize that your security is really in your own efforts of "abiding in Him".

    My security is in Christ alone, who gave me the gift of eternal life and said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

    Why don't you provide any verse that supports your claim?

    What He promised in John 10:28 is that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

    I understand your view. You think He promises security only to those who make the effort to abide in Him. That simply means that one's security depends on them. That removes all grace.

    How come you don't believe what He said in Joh 10:28? And you never answer this question.

    The evidence is OBVIOUS, which I've pointed out. You have admitted that one's security is based on one's maintenance of abiding in Him.

    It IS true, and I can't help that truth divides.

    Your hyperbolics do nothing to advance this discussion. And truth from God's word is hardly a "minor point". Maybe to you, but certainly not to me.

    As far as the silly claim that I've made eternal security "into the end of the world", well, that i just ludicrous. I'm just sorry to see how little you value Scripture.

    That pretty much describes your logic.

    None? I've been pointing out your unbiblical views since my first post to you.

    That would describe your view on security.
     
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