2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Then prove that it isn't, for pete's sake. Stop your whining and complaining and put your money where your mouth is.

I understand you opinion; John 10:28 isn't a deterministic statement. So what?

Your opinion doesn't count. You've proved nothing. Your opinions prove nothing.

I've given a color coded explanation of both the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life. All you've done is ignore it.

And I'll tell you why you keep ignoring it. It cannot be refuted. By you or anyone else.

It is exactly what Jesus was saying.

You take one verse and keep hammering on it, without paying any attention to the cause and effect statements in the verses around it.

So what?

Show me these "cause and effect statements" in verses around John 10:28.

Do any of these "cause and effect statements" refute or negate the actual cause and effect statements in John 10:28?

Why don't you EVER explain yourself?

There is nothing to refute.

Exactly!! That's my point. John 10:28 cannot refuted. And Jesus gave us the CAUSE of having eternal life, and the EFFECT of having eternal life.

And that IS eternal security.

I can take one verse by itself and say it's good to kill babies.

And I can easily PROVE that you have totally misunderstood the verse. So go ahead, allow me to PROVE how wrong you are.

This is not the way the Word is read and understood, it's how cults are born.

I'm not interested in your opinion. Just show how John 10:28 isn't about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

Adam Clarke Commentary on John 10:28.
They shall never perish - Why? Because they hear my voice, and follow me; therefore I know, I approve of and love them, and give them eternal life.

He's as screwed up as any Arminian. The CAUSE of never perishing is NOT found in v.27 as he opines. It is found at the beginning of v.28. Being given eternal life is the CAUSE of never perishing.

Anyone with a high school level education can easily see that when they read John 10:27 and 28.

They who continue to hear Christ's voice, and to follow him, shall never perish.

Thank you for this EXCELLENT EXAMPLE OF EISEGESIS. Please show me the word "continue" in either v.27 or v.28. You can't, so you're only inserting words that you
WANT to see in those verses. That's called eisegesis.

From Merriam-Webster Dictionary: Eisegesis definition is - the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas.

That's what you and Mr Clarke do.

The rest of what he wrote wasn't worth the time to refute. He shot himself in the head in the first sentence out of his mouth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are hearing nothing. You are ignoring Scripture and plugging your ears, then proceeding to tell me that ''you're hearing me''.

I AM hearing your opinions. All of them. And refuting ALL of them.

I am not giving an ''opinion'', I am giving Scripture and expounding on its meaning, the same scriptures you are blatantly ignoring.

I've see NOTHING about any verse saying that salvation can be lost.

I, otoh, have given you Scripture that says in plain words, those given eternal life shall never perish.

You do not desire truth, or else you would let the Scriptures speak.

I am the one letting them speak. You are the one ignoring or rejecting the Scriptures.

Here, I'll prove it here and now.

Do you believe that a saved person, defined by possessing eternal life, can perish?

A simple yes or no. Please answer.

 

[JLB777]

If that were true, then wouldn't our salvation be determined by ourselves? And earned by ourselves?

No that’s your logical fallacy.

We are to continue to believe, to the end, which is the condition required for salvation.


Do you think God does the believing for us?

That would mean universal salvation is true because it’s not God’s will that any should perish, so God would do the believing for all the world.

Unfortunately for your “theory”, we are required to believe in order to be saved.


Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe are no longer believers.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


Those who believe for a while do indeed meet the condition for salvation, but only for a while.

Believe = Saved

Believe for a while = Saved for a while



JLB

 

[JLB777]

I'm not interested in your opinion. Just show how John 10:28 isn't about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Those who hear His Voice and follow Him
are promised that they won’t be snatched out of His hand.


Those who hear and follow for awhile then become lost, do not have the same promise as the faithful followers.


The 100 sheep belong to the shepherd, as they are His sheep: Born again - Children of God.

• What man of you, having a hundred sheep

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


However, we see from this teaching of Jesus, that His sheep can indeed become lost.

• ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

• likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The 99 are said to be "just"; Declared by God as right with Him - Righteous


The one who becomes lost, is described by Jesus as a sinner [unjust; not reconciled to God - unrighteous] in need of repentance.


These are the words of Jesus.


Now comes the question to you -


Based on the actual words Jesus uses, is a sheep [born again Christian] who wanders away and becomes lost, a sinner or saint, saved or unsaved, just or unjust?


JLB

 

[JLB777]

Do you believe that a saved person, defined by possessing eternal life, can perish?

If they come forth in the resurrection of life, then no.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29



Does a Christian who becomes lost is no st need salvation?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

No that’s your logical fallacy.

We are to continue to believe, to the end, which is the condition required for salvation.

Then explain all of the verses that say this are related to the Tribulation and not to the general population of every generation?

Do you think God does the believing for us?

Nope.

Unfortunately for your “theory”, we are required to believe in order to be saved.

That is my theology, and it's no theory.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe are no longer believers.

So what? Prove that they are unsaved. Oh, and don't forget to prove that these things are UN-done as well.

1. given eternal life
2. adopted as sons
3. sealed with the Holy Spirit
4. justified
5. forgiven

 

[FreeGrace2]

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Those who hear His Voice and follow Him
are promised that they won’t be snatched out of His hand.


Those who hear and follow for awhile then become lost, do not have the same promise as the faithful followers.

You need reading lessons.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Does a Christian who becomes lost is no st need salvation?
JLB

Show me any verse that speaks of a Christian that has become lost.

Or there's no reason to entertain your silliness.

 

[JLB777]

Yet, Eph 2:8,9 says we are saved by grace through faith, not of works.

Please post the scripture as you have been proven to add and subtract from the word to suite your own theology.


JLB

 

[JLB777]

You need reading lessons.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


The condition is clear from receiving eternal life on the Day of Judgement.

Hear and obey, by following.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Yet, Eph 2:8,9 says we are saved by grace through faith, not of works."

Please post the scripture as you have been proven to add and subtract from the word to suite your own theology.
JLB

Can you not find them yourself?

Do you own homework. Everyone else does.

If my statement is false, please quote any verse that shows that my statement is false.

It's just amazing how lazy some folk are. They want someone else to do their own work.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The condition is clear from receiving eternal life on the Day of Judgement.

So then, you just ignore or reject what else Jesus said about having eternal life?

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These 3 verses PROVE that those who believe CURRENTLY POSSESS eternal life.

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

This verse PROVES that being given eternal life is WHEN one believes, which by now, is in the past tense for those who currently believe. They possessed eternal life when they believed.

You've failed to prove otherwise.

Hear and obey, by following.

Do you understand the difference between a description and a conditional clause?

It would seem you do not.

The CAUSE for never perishing is found at the beginning of v.28: "I give them eternal life".

So, when one believes, at that moment, they BECOME recipients of eternal life.

And EVERY recipient of eternal life shall never perish.

So said Jesus. And you have the audacity to reject what Jesus said.

 

[JLB777]

Do you believe that a saved person, defined by possessing eternal life, can perish?

If they come forth in the resurrection of life, then no.

those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,​

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29


JLB

 

[JLB777]

It's just amazing how lazy some folk are. They want someone else to do their own work.

Yes you are so lazy you won’t bother to post the scripture, because it always refutes your opinion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Do you believe that a saved person, defined by possessing eternal life, can perish?

If they come forth in the resurrection of life, then no.

My question was straightforward. Yes, or no, to my question. Not your meddling with my question.

Can a saved person, defined by possessing eternal life, perish? I don't need any "if..." additions.

It's a straight forward question. But you can't handle it.

Which is what I expected.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes you are so lazy you won’t bother to post the scripture, because it always refutes your opinion.

How come you've never put your money where your mouth is?

If any verse I cite refutes my opinion, then why are you so lazy as to NOT point that out and explain how it does?

Again, all you do is demonstrate your preference for rest rather than work.

And you've NEVER refuting anything I've said. But you do throw opinions at what I say.

But everyone knows that opinions without evidence is worthless.

 

[Loren T.]

Do you believe that a saved person, defined by possessing eternal life, can perish?

A saved person, by definition is a believer. A believer can not perish. A non believer who was once a believer certainly can. I and others have already quoted many verses stating that a person can fall away from faith. Your opinion that falling from faith does not equal loss of salvation is just an opinion.

Actually, the only way eternal security makes sense is under a system where God is irresistibly choosing people, so I still think you have to be at least a two or three point Calvinist, just not claiming the name.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Actually, the only way eternal security makes sense is under a system where God is irresistibly choosing people,

This is an indictment on your false theology. Obviously you have no clue of what His Grace and His mercy actually mean. And The Lord Jesus Christ's life and death for YOU means nothing in your theology.

Because eternal security HINGES upon His life and death for US. And His Grace extended to those who HAVE believed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

A saved person, by definition is a believer. A believer can not perish. A non believer who was once a believer certainly can.

Your error is the assumption that continued believing is what keeps one saved.

So prove it from Scripture. You can't, and you know it. All the verses about believing in the aorist tense (past tense) refutes your opinion.

I and others have already quoted many verses stating that a person can fall away from faith

And we've covered this in depth. It refers to leaving the faith; no longer believing what was once believed. It has nothing to do with all the things that accompany salvation.

Once a person believes,

1. they have salvation Eph 2:8

2. they have eternal life John 3:5:24 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13

3. they are SEALED with the Holy Spirit Eph 1:13

4. they are GUARANTEED their inheritance until the day of redemption Eph 1:14

5. they SHALL NEVER PERISH John 10:28

Ever see this list before.

Your opinion that falling from faith does not equal loss of salvation is just an opinion.

You have proved nothing otherwise. Go to the list above and provide the verses that show that these things can be UN-done.

Otherwise, all you've got is your erroneous opinion.

Actually, the only way eternal security makes sense is under a system where God is irresistibly choosing people, so I still think you have to be at least a two or three point Calvinist, just not claiming the name.

And we know the Bible doesn't teach that.

And the list above REFUTES the opinion that salvation can be UN-done.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is an indictment on your false theology. Obviously you have no clue of what His Grace and His mercy actually mean. And The Lord Jesus Christ's life and death for YOU means nothing in your theology.

Because eternal security HINGES upon His life and death for US. And His Grace extended to those who HAVE believed.

Amen!!