2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[ThatCanadianDude_88]

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

This verse states in very clear and plain words that condemnation is for everyone who has not believed the gospel.

The words "have not believed" is in the aorist tense; meaning believed in a point of time. Past time.

The Arminian claim that one must continue to believe in order to avoid hell (losing salvation) is refuted by this verse. If that claim were true, Paul would have written it this way:

"so that all will be condemned who do not continue to believe the truth".

So the aorist tense once again refutes the claim of Arminians.

In fact, 2 Thess 2:12 parallels both of these verses:

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here's how: Jn 5:24 says those who believe "will not be judged/condemned".

John 10:28 says recipients "of eternal life (believers) shall never perish".

It will be interesting and instructive to see how Arminians, if any do, will respond to this thread.

You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. (Matthew 10:22)

But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. (Matthew 24:13)

You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. (Mark 13:13)

Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. (James 1:12)

Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. (Revelations 2:10)

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation? (Hebrews 1)

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1)

The Peril of Unbelief
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end (Hebrews 3)

 

[FreeGrace2]

I suppose you assume all these verses teach that one must endure the rest of their life in order to go to heaven, huh? Well, please just think for a moment.

If that were true, then wouldn't our salvation be determined by ourselves? And earned by ourselves?

Yet, Eph 2:8,9 says we are saved by grace through faith, not of works.

You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. (Matthew 10:22)

But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. (Matthew 24:13)

You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. (Mark 13:13)

In all these, the context is about the end of the Tribulation, though Matt 10:22 isn't as clear as the other 2. And it isn't about eternal soul salvation, or the myriad of verses that say we are saved by faith would be wrong.

Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. (James 1:12)

All "crowns" are rewards earned while on earth. One must persevere under trial in order to earn this crown.

Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. (Revelations 2:10)

Same as James 1:12.

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation? (Hebrews 1)

Rom 8:17a shows us this inheritance. It is on the basis of being one of God's children.

However, Rom 8:17b shows us an inheritance that is EARNED.

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1)

I'm amazed to see these 2 verses among those used by Arminians to support loss of salvation. First, notice in v.13 the past tense "having believed". This sealing is for those who HAVE believed. And this sealing is a "pledge" or GUARANTEE (NIV) of our inheritance until (with a view to) the redemption of God's own possession.

These 2 verses are solidly about eternal security.

Once sealed, always sealed. OSAS.

The Peril of Unbelief
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end (Hebrews 3)

Let's go down a few verses to see the rest of this context.

18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?
19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Are you aware that Moses himself didn't enter the land because of unbelief? Yet, he appeared on the mount of Transfiguration with Jesus, so don't conclude that he lost salvation.

The unbelief in ch 3 is not about the point in time belief in Jesus Christ as Savior, but the day to day lifestyle faith that God requires of all believers. You know, "the just shall (are supposed to) live by faith".

The Exodus generation repeatedly failed to trust God for their day to day provisions, and therefore lost the privilege of entering the promised land, including Moses.

If you don't believe that the Bible describes Moses as not believing, read
Deut 32:51-52
51 This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites.
52 Therefore, you will see the land only from a distance; you will not enter the land I am giving to the people of Israel.”

Num 20:12 - 12 But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”

And John 10:28 could not be any more clear:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

I've color coded the Lord's teaching about the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The direct effect of possessing (having) eternal life is to never perish.

And Jesus gives eternal life WHEN one believes, per John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:11, 13.

So, from the MOMENT that one believes, Jesus says they shall never perish.

To believe otherwise is to be in direct opposition to the Lord's teaching.

 

[ThatCanadianDude_88]

I suppose you assume all these verses teach that one must endure the rest of their life in order to go to heaven, huh? Well, please just think for a moment.

If that were true, then wouldn't our salvation be determined by ourselves? And earned by ourselves?

Hello.

Simply put, no. This is a critical misconception that is at the heart of OSAS teachings, that loss of salvation implies a gospel of works, or that it implies man is responsible to determine his own salvation. The problem comes when we put conclusions ahead of Scripture, rather than be lead by Scripture we fit Scripture into a predetermined mold.

The falling away is a concrete reality, and Paul tells us that it is precipitated by unbelief. Why else do you think the NT scriptures warn us repeatedly about this? It's not the kind of unbelief that comes with doubting, but the wholesale unbelief that causes one to walk away from the Lord entirely and consider His promises of no effect - which is the falling away. The greatest of these promises being eternal salvation in Christ, around which everything else hinges. Why do you think Scripture does not explicitly speak about loss of salvation, but a falling away? We are being saved spiritually in the present, but the inheritance that awaits us is eternal salvation - the consummation of our faith in God through Christ. You cannot lose an inheritance you have not received. You can, however, walk away from the one through whom you have received the promise of an inheritance - in which case you have forfeited the inheritance.

Falling away does not imply an immediate forfeiting - Matthew 26:31. The warning of Scripture is to return while you can - for if allowed to continue, it will eventually become final - judgment upon those who have neglected such a great salvation, they are cut off (Romans 11:21). These are the branches Christ spoke of that are removed from Him, the true vine. The sign is perpetual fruitlessness - lifestyle is the evidence, the mirror. The hearth is where the core issues lies. Many presume to show up to the wedding feast without wedding garments, yet what happens to them? The garments are Christ's righteousness. Who is responsible for not wearing the appropriate attire? Is it up to the Lord to dress us up? (Matthew 22 & 1 Timothy 4:7). OSAS deletes the active part of faith, which is ultimately obedience to Scripture - and gives man room to set up his own standards regarding salvation and righteousness.

Look at the parable of the sower. The seeds that fell on stony ground - those who are genuinely saved, but stumble immediately because of persecution and fall away. OSAS teachings rely heavily on choice passages while either misappropriating or outright ignoring others. We need to take the Scripture as a whole.

Tune into what the gospel is saying. We are saved by grace through faith. But, did you not have to actually do something to be saved? Is not repenting and believing an active thing that we do every day? Paul is saying that we are not saved BY works, that does not mean that our works don't play an active role in our salvation. I like to use the story of the Israelites at Jericho as an example. Do you think they would have won the victory if they stayed in their tents? Faith has both an passive and active component, they go hand in hand. This is a major theme in James, faith that is without works - inactive - is not truly faith and will not save you. The Israelites had to take heed to God's instructions, get out of their tents - and for a whole week, march around Jericho in a precise order and fashion. Who was it that brought the victory? God. Would the victory have come if the Israelites were disobedient? No.

And that's when we are able to discern the slippery slope of OSAS, I have seen firsthand how dangerous this teaching could be. You cannot treat your faith and your lifestyle as different compartments, they are inextricably linked. Peter tells us how to make our calling and election sure, it is through our persistent growth in Christian virtue (2 Peter 1). Scripture alone is meant to be the benchmark for both what we believe and how we need to be living and it constantly stresses how imperative it is for believers to be growing in the righteousness of Christ. OSAS has the potential to deceive people into thinking they can set their own benchmark - even to the point of claiming they are saved on the basis of only believing John 3:16, while intentionally ignoring the rest of Scripture. I have seen this, these people do not understand they are gambling with their souls, and potentially to eternal ruin.

Paul is teaching us that God is the source of our salvation, not our works. James is teaching us about the active part of our faith. These are two important yet distinct teachings.

In all these, the context is about the end of the Tribulation, though Matt 10:22 isn't as clear as the other 2. And it isn't about eternal soul salvation, or the myriad of verses that say we are saved by faith would be wrong.

All "crowns" are rewards earned while on earth. One must persevere under trial in order to earn this crown.

Same as James 1:12.

You can't use sweeping statements like this. It depends on the context, you cannot say that every time a crown is mentioned, it is about a reward. James tells us, once he has been approved, what do you think that means?! Christ tell us be faithful even unto death, AND I will give you the crown of life. This is eternal life - and there is a condition to receiving it, remaining faithful unto death.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hello.

Simply put, no. This is a critical misconception that is at the heart of OSAS teachings, that loss of salvation implies a gospel of works, or that it implies man is responsible to determine his own salvation.

The critical misconception is that a saved person can end up unsaved. There are NO verses that make such a statement.

On the contrary, Jesus taught, and very clearly, that a person possesses eternal life WHEN they believe, per John 5:24, 6:47, as well as 1 John 5:11,13.

Then, He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. It couldn't be said more clearly. So the misconception is all on your side.

The problem comes when we put conclusions ahead of Scripture, rather than be lead by Scripture we fit Scripture into a predetermined mold.

Why don't you accept the plain teaching of John 10:28?

Jesus taught us the CAUSE and EFFECT of having (possessing) eternal life in that verse.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Now, your challenge is to explain that the red words AREN'T the CAUSE of having eternal life, and the blue words AREN'T the EFFECT of having eternal life.

I have color coded my explanation of Johb 10:28 so that you CAN'T miss my points.

Now, please show me how the color coded explanation isn't what I say it is.

The falling away is a concrete reality, and Paul tells us that it is precipitated by unbelief. Why else do you think the NT scriptures warn us repeatedly about this? It's not the kind of unbelief that comes with doubting, but the wholesale unbelief that causes one to walk away from the Lord entirely and consider His promises of no effect - which is the falling away. The greatest of these promises being eternal salvation in Christ, around which everything else hinges. Why do you think Scripture does not explicitly speak about loss of salvation, but a falling away? We are being saved spiritually in the present, but the inheritance that awaits us is eternal salvation - the consummation of our faith in God through Christ. You cannot lose an inheritance you have not received. You can, however, walk away from the one through whom you have received the promise of an inheritance - in which case you have forfeited the inheritance.

Of course a believer can cease to believe. I haven't said otherwise. But what Jesus said still stands. Once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. John 10:28

Look at the parable of the sower. The seeds that fell on stony ground - those who are genuinely saved, but stumble immediately because of persecution and fall away. OSAS teachings rely heavily on choice passages while either misappropriating or outright ignoring others. We need to take the Scripture as a whole.

Yes. Genuinely saved, and genuinely fell away from his faith.

And from what Jesus said, because he had received the gift of eternal life when he believed, he shall never perish.

Tune into what the gospel is saying. We are saved by grace through faith. But, did you not have to actually do something to be saved?

Since believing is non-meritorious, it is not a work, like actions. What's your point?

Is not repenting and believing an active thing that we do every day?

And they are not works.

Paul is saying that we are not saved BY works, that does not mean that our works don't play an active role in our salvation.

Yes, it means our works DON'T play an active role in our salvation.

Are you areally unaware of Eph 2:8,9, or do you just not believe it?

And that's when we are able to discern the slippery slope of OSAS, I have seen firsthand how dangerous this teaching could be.

You haven't shown any such slippery slope. Just the charge of it.

Since John 10:28 is the clearest stated verse in the Bible on eternal security, it's your view that is sliding down a slope.

 

[ThatCanadianDude_88]

The critical misconception is that a saved person can end up unsaved. There are NO verses that make such a statement.

On the contrary, Jesus taught, and very clearly, that a person possesses eternal life WHEN they believe, per John 5:24, 6:47, as well as 1 John 5:11,13.

Then, He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. It couldn't be said more clearly. So the misconception is all on your side.


Why don't you accept the plain teaching of John 10:28?

Jesus taught us the CAUSE and EFFECT of having (possessing) eternal life in that verse.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Now, your challenge is to explain that the red words AREN'T the CAUSE of having eternal life, and the blue words AREN'T the EFFECT of having eternal life.

I have color coded my explanation of Johb 10:28 so that you CAN'T miss my points.

Now, please show me how the color coded explanation isn't what I say it is.


Of course a believer can cease to believe. I haven't said otherwise. But what Jesus said still stands. Once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. John 10:28


Yes. Genuinely saved, and genuinely fell away from his faith.

And from what Jesus said, because he had received the gift of eternal life when he believed, he shall never perish.


Since believing is non-meritorious, it is not a work, like actions. What's your point?


And they are not works.


Yes, it means our works DON'T play an active role in our salvation.

Are you areally unaware of Eph 2:8,9, or do you just not believe it?


You haven't shown any such slippery slope. Just the charge of it.

Since John 10:28 is the clearest stated verse in the Bible on eternal security, it's your view that is sliding down a slope.

To reiterate,

''OSAS teachings rely heavily on choice passages while either misappropriating or outright ignoring others. We need to take the Scripture as a whole.''

As long as this remains to be the case, the discussion cannot advance. You are being selective, essentially telling me that the only thing that is important is the argument you are trying to make as opposed to understanding the whole truth of what the scriptures present.

John 10
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Jesus is not precluding one's apostasy or falling away, which the individual alone is responsible for. Note the language, ''no one''. Again, what does the rest of scripture say? The sheep are following the Shepard, this is not done passively.

I challenge you to consider the whole truth of Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The critical misconception is that a saved person can end up unsaved. There are NO verses that make such a statement.

On the contrary, Jesus taught, and very clearly, that a person possesses eternal life WHEN they believe, per John 5:24, 6:47, as well as 1 John 5:11,13.

Then, He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. It couldn't be said more clearly. So the misconception is all on your side.

To reiterate,

''OSAS teachings rely heavily on choice passages while either misappropriating or outright ignoring others. We need to take the Scripture as a whole.''

Of course I use "choice passages". They specifically and directly teach eternal security. Why would I bother using passages that aren't so clear? That makes no sense.

And what I said about your view stands. You've got no verses that specifically and directly teach that salvation can be lost.

As long as this remains to be the case, the discussion cannot advance.

You have YET to offer another reasonable interpretation of John 10:28, that shows that Jesus didn't MEAN that recipients shall never perish.

You are being selective, essentially telling me that the only thing that is important is the argument you are trying to make as opposed to understanding the whole truth of what the scriptures present.

Just explain to me what Jesus meant in John 10:28 then.

John 10
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Jesus is not precluding one's apostasy or falling away, which the individual alone is responsible for.

What do you mean by "Jesus is not precluding one's apostasy" in v.28? His point was very clear. Those who He gives eternal life shall never perish.

Again, what does the rest of scripture say?

The exact same thing that Jesus said in John 10:28.

Where are the verses that plainly, directly and clearly state that salvation can be lost? Nowhere to be found.

The sheep are following the Shepard, this is not done passively.

And this has no bearing whatsoever on v.28.

Jesus addressed both the CAUSE and the EFFECT of having eternal life.

He is the CAUSE of those having eternal life.
Never perishing is the EFFECT of those having eternal life.

And you have not, because you cannot, prove otherwise.

 

[ThatCanadianDude_88]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The critical misconception is that a saved person can end up unsaved. There are NO verses that make such a statement.

On the contrary, Jesus taught, and very clearly, that a person possesses eternal life WHEN they believe, per John 5:24, 6:47, as well as 1 John 5:11,13.

Then, He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. It couldn't be said more clearly. So the misconception is all on your side.

Of course I use "choice passages". They specifically and directly teach eternal security. Why would I bother using passages that aren't so clear? That makes no sense.

And what I said about your view stands. You've got no verses that specifically and directly teach that salvation can be lost.


You have YET to offer another reasonable interpretation of John 10:28, that shows that Jesus didn't MEAN that recipients shall never perish.


Just explain to me what Jesus meant in John 10:28 then.


What do you mean by "Jesus is not precluding one's apostasy" in v.28? His point was very clear. Those who He gives eternal life shall never perish.


The exact same thing that Jesus said in John 10:28.

Where are the verses that plainly, directly and clearly state that salvation can be lost? Nowhere to be found.


And this has no bearing whatsoever on v.28.

Jesus addressed both the CAUSE and the EFFECT of having eternal life.

He is the CAUSE of those having eternal life.
Never perishing is the EFFECT of those having eternal life.

And you have not, because you cannot, prove otherwise.

You deny the Scriptural reality of the falling away, plain and simple. It is a grevious error to assume that the ones who fall away are still saved, as Paul tells us clearly that falling away is precipated by a wicked and unbelieving heart. Read John 15 and Romans 11, and the other passages I initially quoted. God is able to keep us in Christ if we remain obedient. You cannot do as you wish and presume to remain saved because of your claims to a confession of faith. If this is what you think then you are deceived by a false gospel. The promises of God are not a one way street, if you cannot see this it is because you do not want to. Truth faith that saves produces obedience to Christ and spiritual fruit.

It is your pregorative to continune denying the truth. OSAS is a stubborn teaching because it goes hand in hand with false security / assurance as it by definition rejects the true Biblical basis for assurance, so you cannot contend with someone on this point without exposing this false assurance. It is also deceptively seductive, as it fools men into thinking they can do as they wish and remain saved - false gospel, false salvation.


Just let Scripture speak for itself if you really seek the Truth

 

[FreeGrace2]

You deny the Scriptural reality of the falling away, plain and simple.

Nonsense. This is what I said:
"FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The critical misconception is that a saved person can end up unsaved. There are NO verses that make such a statement.

On the contrary, Jesus taught, and very clearly, that a person possesses eternal life WHEN they believe, per John 5:24, 6:47, as well as 1 John 5:11,13.

Then, He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. It couldn't be said more clearly. So the misconception is all on your side.

Of course I use "choice passages". They specifically and directly teach eternal security. Why would I bother using passages that aren't so clear? That makes no sense.

And what I said about your view stands. You've got no verses that specifically and directly teach that salvation can be lost."

You haven't proven FROM SCRIPTURE that "falling away" means loss of salvation.

But, if you could prove that, all you will have done is prove the Bible contradictory. Is that your strategy? It's not very smart, if it is.

It is a grevious error to assume that the ones who fall away are still saved, as Paul tells us clearly that falling away is precipated by a wicked and unbelieving heart.

You are clearly not real familiar with Scripture then. The reason Moses didn't enter the land is stated in Heb 3:19 - So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. This includes Moses.

The Bible describes his sin of "breaking faith" with God and "not trusting enough" when he struck a rock when told to speak to the rock.

And yet, in spite of Heb 3:19, Moses appeared on the mount of Transfiguration.

So your "analysis" is quite flawed to just keep assuming and presuming when Scripture doesn't let you make such excuses.

Read John 15 and Romans 11, and the other passages I initially quoted.

No, I don't need to. You need to quote specific verses if you think any of them clearly state that one can lose salvation.

God is able to keep us in Christ if we remain obedient.

How come Jesus didn't include that condition in John 10:28 then? Don't you understand how much your statement is in direct opposition to John 10:28??

You cannot do as you wish and presume to remain saved because of your claims to a confession of faith.

Did Jesus just "presume" that recipients of eternal life shall never perish? Of course not. He STATED that they shall not. Why can't you grasp that?

If this is what you think then you are deceived by a false gospel. The promises of God are not a one way street, if you cannot see this it is because you do not want to.

Prove your 2way street from Scripture. When God makes a promise, he doesn't break it.

Truth faith that saves produces obedience to Christ and spiritual fruit.

Again, I'm not interested in your opinions, assumptions, or presumptions. I am interested in exactly what the Bible says. And you know full well that you cannot find ANY verse that says what you opine.

It is your pregorative to continune denying the truth.

I agree with Jesus. You're the one on the wrong side.

OSAS is a stubborn teaching because it goes hand in hand with false security / assurance as it by definition rejects the true Biblical basis for assurance, so you cannot contend with someone on this point without exposing this false assurance.

So what is this "biblical basis for assurance", if not God's promise?

Are God's promises not enough for you?

It is also deceptively seductive, as it fools men into thinking they can do as they wish and remain saved - false gospel, false salvation.

That's the glue that holds your false theology together; fear that people will abuse God's grace and "get away" with sin.

Nonsense. Those properly taught the Bible know WHY God saves people. For good works. Eph 2:10

Just let Scripture speak for itself if you really seek the Truth

That is exactly what I have done.

Jesus SAID recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

But you just don't believe Him, huh.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Nonsense. Those properly taught the Bible know WHY God saves people. For good works. Eph 2:10

What is truly sad is that most believers don't have a clue what divine good works are compared to our self righteous /evil/good works. And they miss out on the true spiritual life by trying to clean up their flesh and live a life of worthless works by trying to please God so as to keep salvation or maintain HIS GIFT to them........useless, worthless, evil works from the 'good/religious/evil' side of our flesh.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What is truly sad is that most believers don't have a clue what divine good works are compared to our self righteous /evil/good works. And they miss out on the true spiritual life by trying to clean up their flesh and live a life of worthless works by trying to please God so as to keep salvation or maintain HIS GIFT to them........useless, worthless, evil works from the 'good/religious/evil' side of our flesh.

Amen brother!

 

[Loren T.]

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

This verse states in very clear and plain words that condemnation is for everyone who has not believed the gospel.

The very next verse proves you wrong.
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You are saved through the sanctifying work of the spirit and through belief in the truth. If you cease to believe in the truth, there is no longer any sanctifying work being done and you fall from grace.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

This verse states in very clear and plain words that condemnation is for everyone who has not believed the gospel.

The very next verse proves you wrong.

I simply can't imagine how any brain could come with that conclusion.

So, let's look at the verse that you think proves me wrong.

13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You are saved through the sanctifying work of the spirit and through belief in the truth. If you cease to believe in the truth, there is no longer any sanctifying work being done and you fall from grace.[/QUOTE]
What you continue to fail to realize is you are putting your OWN OPINION into the verse by your last sentence.

I've asked repeatedly for any verse that teaches that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved, and you have failed repeatedly to provide any.

What v.12 says plainly is that condemnation is for those who never believed. You have not shown otherwise.

And v.13 doesn't undo that. It's really a statement about the METHOD God uses to save people. He chose "the sanctifying work of the Spirit and belief in the truth" as the means for saving people.

Calvinists abuse this verse to be about being chosen for salvation.

 

[Loren T.]

You are saved through the sanctifying work of the spirit and through belief in the truth.

This is what the verse says.. How can you claim some are still being saved when they no longer believe in the truth? If one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved, according to this verse. How can you not see what is plain as day?

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

An apostate does not believe the truth and he delights in wickedness. You seem to think God is trapped in time, and only sees the moment we believe, but closes his eyes and ignores our unbelief if we fall away. saying "Oh, they believe now, I'll save them forever." The very verses you quote contradict what you say.

 

[ThatCanadianDude_88]

Nonsense. This is what I said:
"FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The critical misconception is that a saved person can end up unsaved. There are NO verses that make such a statement.

There is nothing else to say, you are refusing to listen to Scripture. I am explaining, you are not listening.

The falling away refers to those who are in the faith and who fall away from it with a wicked and unbelieving heart. You have deceived yourself into placing a unscriptural requirement in order to be convinced of truth.

Like I have explained, you cannot lose that which you do not have. Scripture speaks of the promise of an inheritance that we ''will'' recieve (Hebrews 1), James talks about receiving the crown of life ''after'' we have been approved, Christ tells us He will give us the crown ''if'' we remain faithful unto death. There is a reason Scripture does not speak of ''losing one's salvation'' but does have much to say about falling away and apostasy. The crown of life IS Eternal life. This is NOT in the context of rewards. As long as you refuse to see truth, you will make Scripture say what YOU want it to say.

Jesus SAID recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

But you just don't believe Him, huh.

I have seen this tactic before, it is not new. You look for assurance and affirmation through controversies and arguments, rather than the Word of God - and this is why you need to demean and accuse others of having bad theology or being gulty of unbelief, attempting to ''win'' people over to your side so as to convince yourself you are in the truth, to appease your own conscious and justify the false teaching that you've made an idol. This has been happening since the early Church, the Judaizers did the same thing - and they caused a lot of disharmony, confusion, and grief.

It is just not worth it.

I am more than willing to discuss Scripture, provided you are open to a fruitful and honest discussion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is what the verse says.. How can you claim some are still being saved when they no longer believe in the truth?

You are providing a glaring example of abusing the "present tense" for 'believe'.

You want it to mean "saved ONLY AS LONG AS you continue to believe".

However, the Greek present tense has no such meaning attached to it.

So try another tactic.

If one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved, according to this verse.

That is only your grossly misunderstanding of the verse. See above for your abuse of the "present tense".

How can you not see what is plain as day?

The part that "is plain as day" is your unjustified abuse of the present tense.

An apostate does not believe the truth and he delights in wickedness.

Yes.

You seem to think God is trapped in time, and only sees the moment we believe, but closes his eyes and ignores our unbelief if we fall away.

Oh, how wrong your opinions continue to be.

God is omniscient and has always knows everything each of us will ever do.

But I'm glad you bring this up. The real question for Arminians is this:
Since God IS omniscient, WHY on earth would He give salvation to those He ALREADY KNOWS will cease to believe later or actively rebel later?

That's what makes no sense.

Your only defense can be that He puts our "so great salvation" into our own hands. Which is absurd and has no support from Scripture at all.

All you've got is your opinions and wishful thinking.

saying "Oh, they believe now, I'll save them forever."

That's EXACTLY what the gospel promises.

The very verses you quote contradict what you say.

You've shown nothing of the sort. All you've shown is your erroneous opinions and wishful thinking.

 

[Loren T.]

Calvinists abuse this verse to be about being chosen for salvation.

In the very same way, you abuse John 10:28, by making it a deterministic statement instead of a promise to believers. Same error, different application.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The critical misconception is that a saved person can end up unsaved. There are NO verses that make such a statement.

There is nothing else to say, you are refusing to listen to Scripture. I am explaining, you are not listening.

Oh, I'm hearing you quite clearly. And COMPLETELY DISAGREEING with your opinions.

I AM hearing what Scripture says, and I've been pointing out and explaining what they mean, and it's you who aren't listening.

I keep asking for verses that TELL US that a saved person can end up unsaved, and all you do is give more opinion. Not a single verse is quoted in support of your opinions.

The falling away refers to those who are in the faith and who fall away from it with a wicked and unbelieving heart. You have deceived yourself into placing a unscriptural requirement in order to be convinced of truth.

This is delirious. There are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish. Or John 10:28 would have included them.

Like I have explained, you cannot lose that which you do not have.[/QUTOE]
How 'bout that! We finally agree on something.

And so when Jesus gives eternal life, they can't lose it. iow, those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

Scripture speaks of the promise of an inheritance that we ''will'' recieve (Hebrews 1), James talks about receiving the crown of life ''after'' we have been approved, Christ tells us He will give us the crown ''if'' we remain faithful unto death. There is a reason Scripture does not speak of ''losing one's salvation'' but does have much to say about falling away and apostasy.

Again, I agree. The answer is not to your liking, however. The reason is that one cannot lose their salvation, but one CAN fall away and become an apostate.

The crown of life IS Eternal life.

Your opinion does not count.

This is NOT in the context of rewards.

EVERY TIME man's efforts are involved in a crown, or "reaping eternal life", it IS a reward.

As long as you refuse to see truth, you will make Scripture say what YOU want it to say.

Exactly what you've done.

I have seen this tactic before, it is not new. You look for assurance and affirmation through controversies and arguments, rather than the Word of God

lol. I have used Scripture alone for my assurance. My assurance is based solely on what Jesus said in John 5:24, 6:47 and 10:28. It's all there clearly. And you reject it.

- and this is why you need to demean and accuse others of having bad theology or being gulty of unbelief, attempting to ''win'' people over to your side so as to convince yourself you are in the truth

I've been convinced LONG before ever posting to you, or anyone else, for that matter.

I don't need "converts" to convince myself. That is worse than absurd.

I am convinced by Scripture. Alone. Which I've quoted and explained. And you've done nothing to refute it. And your opinions just bounce off these verses.

to appease your own conscious and justify the false teaching that you've made an idol. This has been happening since the early Church, the Judaizers did the same thing - and they caused a lot of disharmony, confusion, and grief.

This is just pathetic.

It is just not worth it.

Your opinions aren't.

I am more than willing to discuss Scripture, provided you are open to a fruitful and honest discussion.

Then you can begin any time. I've given you enough to discuss. I've even color coded it for you for easy understanding of my points.

Yet, you haven't even tried to discuss either my verses, nor my color coded explanations.

So I take your comment as being quite insincere.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In the very same way, you abuse John 10:28, by making it a deterministic statement instead of a promise to believers. Same error, different application.

Then prove that it isn't, for pete's sake. Stop your whining and complaining and put your money where your mouth is.

I understand you opinion; John 10:28 isn't a deterministic statement. So what?

Your opinion doesn't count. You've proved nothing. Your opinions prove nothing.

I've given a color coded explanation of both the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life. All you've done is ignore it.

And I'll tell you why you keep ignoring it. It cannot be refuted. By you or anyone else.

It is exactly what Jesus was saying.

 

[Loren T.]

Then prove that it isn't, for pete's sake. Stop your whining and complaining and put your money where your mouth is.

I understand you opinion; John 10:28 isn't a deterministic statement. So what?

Your opinion doesn't count. You've proved nothing. Your opinions prove nothing.

I've given a color coded explanation of both the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life. All you've done is ignore it.

And I'll tell you why you keep ignoring it. It cannot be refuted. By you or anyone else.

It is exactly what Jesus was saying.

You take one verse and keep hammering on it, without paying any attention to the cause and effect statements in the verses around it. There is nothing to refute. I can take one verse by itself and say it's good to kill babies. This is not the way the Word is read and understood, it's how cults are born.


Adam Clarke Commentary on John 10:28.
They shall never perish - Why? Because they hear my voice, and follow me; therefore I know, I approve of and love them, and give them eternal life. They who continue to hear Christ's voice, and to follow him, shall never perish. They give themselves up to God - believe so on Jesus that he lives in their hearts: God hath given unto them eternal life, and this life is in his Son; and he that hath the Son hath life, 1 John 5:11, 1 John 5:12. Now it is evident that only those who have Christ living in and governing their souls, so that they possess the mind that was in him, are his sheep - are those that shall never perish, because they have this eternal life abiding in them: therefore to talk of a man's being one of the elect - one that shall never perish - one who shall have eternal life - who shall never be plucked out of the hand of God, etc., while he lives in sin, has no Christ in his heart, has either never received or fallen away from the grace of God, is as contrary to common sense as it is to the nature and testimonies of the Most High. Final perseverance implies final faithfulness - he that endures to the end shall be saved - he that is faithful unto death shall have a crown of life. And will any man attempt to say that he who does not endure to the end, and is unfaithful, shall ever enter into life?

 

[ThatCanadianDude_88]

"FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The critical misconception is that a saved person can end up unsaved. There are NO verses that make such a statement.

Oh, I'm hearing you quite clearly. And COMPLETELY DISAGREEING with your opinions.

I AM hearing what Scripture says, and I've been pointing out and explaining what they mean, and it's you who aren't listening.

I keep asking for verses that TELL US that a saved person can end up unsaved, and all you do is give more opinion. Not a single verse is quoted in support of your opinions.


This is delirious. There are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish. Or John 10:28 would have included them.

You are hearing nothing. You are ignoring Scripture and plugging your ears, then proceeding to tell me that ''you're hearing me''. I am not giving an ''opinion'', I am giving Scripture and expounding on its meaning, the same scriptures you are blatantly ignoring.

You do not desire truth, or else you would let the Scriptures speak.