2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Please explain how a brother still has eternal life in him who hates his brother.
JLB

As soon as you explain how eternal life isn't given until "the judgment", which would obviously be AFTER one dies physically, but also how a brother who doesn't hate his brother HAS eternal life abiding in him.

You are internally conflicted in your theories.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Grace is the Holy Spirit: The Spirit of Grace.


Grace is the power to obey.


And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
1 John 3:3



JLB

Took the wind out of your sails or something?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

This verse states in very clear and plain words that condemnation is for everyone who has not believed the gospel.

The words "have not believed" is in the aorist tense; meaning believed in a point of time. Past time.

The Arminian claim that one must continue to believe in order to avoid hell (losing salvation) is refuted by this verse. If that claim were true, Paul would have written it this way:

"so that all will be condemned who do not continue to believe the truth".

So the aorist tense once again refutes the claim of Arminians.

In fact, 2 Thess 2:12 parallels both of these verses:

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here's how: Jn 5:24 says those who believe "will not be judged/condemned".

John 10:28 says recipients "of eternal life (believers) shall never perish".

It will be interesting and instructive to see how Arminians, if any do, will respond to this thread.

The interesting part is how you have to edit out “but delighted in sin” to come to your conclusion. This shows an unwillingness to believe the truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The interesting part is how you have to edit out “but delighted in sin” to come to your conclusion. This shows an unwillingness to believe the truth.

How did I leave out any part of the verse? I have cited the verse (which leaves nothing out) and I have quoted the whole verse, which leaves nothing out. Please advise.

The conclusion of the verse is about who will be condemned. It is those who have NOT BELIEVED. That's the sole issue in whether one lives with God in eternity or spends eternity in the lake of fire.

There are confused believers who wrongly think that if a believer ever ceases to believe, which is what Jesus described the second soil in the parable, per Luke 8:13, they simply resort back to the same status as every other unbeliever who never believed.

But this is impossible. God changes people when they believe. They are described as having been born again, regenerated, and no verse describes that as being undone.

Can you or anyone else become un-born from your parents? Of course not. It's no different with our spiritual birth.

And 2 Thess 2:12 prevents anyone from claiming that a "former believer" is just an unbeliever, because a former believer HAS (at one time) believed and is therefore not in view of who will be condemned.

John 3:18 makes the same point - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How did I leave out any part of the verse? I have cited the verse (which leaves nothing out) and I have quoted the whole verse, which leaves nothing out. Please advise.

The conclusion of the verse is about who will be condemned. It is those who have NOT BELIEVED. That's the sole issue in whether one lives with God in eternity or spends eternity in the lake of fire.

There are confused believers who wrongly think that if a believer ever ceases to believe, which is what Jesus described the second soil in the parable, per Luke 8:13, they simply resort back to the same status as every other unbeliever who never believed.

But this is impossible. God changes people when they believe. They are described as having been born again, regenerated, and no verse describes that as being undone.

Can you or anyone else become un-born from your parents? Of course not. It's no different with our spiritual birth.

And 2 Thess 2:12 prevents anyone from claiming that a "former believer" is just an unbeliever, because a former believer HAS (at one time) believed and is therefore not in view of who will be condemned.

John 3:18 makes the same point - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

If one ceases believing, they are called “fallen away from the faith” and are lost. Your theology is why you edit out the bit that doesn’t fit.

The part you left in the verse but edited out of the discussion is the MEASURE of “not or no longer believing” is delighting in doing sin. This you leave out.

So however you decide to define believing, once believed or whatever, as soon as anyone enjoys sin, they no longer or never believed. That is, they are lost. So if a person enjoys slander or is jealous or tells untruths about others, they enjoy sin and don’t believe.

Now that which is born can die. Gifts given can be lost. Seals can be broken.

No where does God promise to change you such that you cannot ever decide to walk away. No chance. No such promise.

Jesus warned his followers about the possibility of falling away. He even said at some point MANY would fall away from the faith and betray (sin against) others.

So I repeat, if a person enjoys any sin, they aren’t believing according to this scripture.

Believing is not merely agreeing something is true as far as believing God is concerned.

 

[JLB777]

Took the wind out of your sails or something?

No grace empowers me to obey.


If you believe a brother can hate his brother and still have eternal life, then please post the scripture that says so.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15




JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

If one ceases believing, they are called “fallen away from the faith” and are lost.

I'm well aware of that concept, but there is no support for such an idea in Scripture. Jesus Himself noted some who "believed for a while, and in time of temptation/testing, fell away". There is no reason to assume He was saying "fell away from their salvation". The wording is clear that they fell away from what they believed, since they believed "for a while". That's all.

And there are no verses in Scripture that state that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved.

Your theology is why you edit out the bit that doesn’t fit.

Again, I didn't do that. And I asked HOW I did that from your charge, and all you do is repeat yourself.

Can you provide any explanation of how I "edited" out anything?

The part you left in the verse but edited out of the discussion is the MEASURE of “not or no longer believing” is delighting in doing sin. This you leave out.

This has no bearing or relevance on my point. Which you seem not to understand.

Of course those who no longer believe will deligh in sin. And it doesn't change the fact that it is ONLY those who "have not believed" that will be condemned.

Why are you ignoring those very clear words?

So however you decide to define believing, once believed or whatever, as soon as anyone enjoys sin, they no longer or never believed. That is, they are lost.

No, you are just rather confused. Your seemingly definition of what "enjoys sin" means is not supported in Scripture. Do you really think that anyone, believer or unbeliever, chooses to do (sin) what they don't enjoy? That doesn't even make sense.

When anyone sins, that is a choice, and a choice to do something they enjoy doing. Period. But that doesn't mean they never believed, as you seem to suggest.

The words "have not believed" means exactly that. They NEVER believed.

It is absurd to make the claim that a former believer NEVER believed. Of course they did. By their not continuing to believe is what makes them a former believer. And it cannot be said of them that they NEVER believed.

So if a person enjoys slander or is jealous or tells untruths about others, they enjoy sin and don’t believe.

Your claim is merely an opinion and not supported from Scripture.

Now that which is born can die.

Physically, of course. Spiritually, NEVER.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Your claim is in direct opposition to these verses.

Gifts given can be lost.

Go ahead and just try to lose eternal life. Rom 6:23 describes eternal life as a gift of God. Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Please don't error by reducing the gift of eternal life to some cheap Christmas present or birthday gift.

Seals can be broken.

Sure. Any physical seal. But NOT the Holy Spirit Himself. Eph 1:13,14 doesn't permit your opinion to be correct.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Only those who just DON'T WANT TO see eternal security in these 2 verses won't see it.

No where does God promise to change you such that you cannot ever decide to walk away. No chance. No such promise.

We, of course, are free to cease to believe. But there are NO verses that we even have the power to give back, lose, forfeit, etc our salvation.

When a person believes in Christ, these are things that happen to them:

1. they are justified. Where is the verse that one who ceases to believe ceases to be justified?

2. they are forgiven. Where is the verse that one who ceases to believe ceases to be forgiven?

3. they are born again (regenerated). Where is the verse that one who ceases to believe becomes UN-born?

4. they are new creatures (2 Cor 5:17). Where is the verse that one who ceases to believe ceases to be a new creature?

by now, I'm sure you realize that there are NO such verses, that teach that any of these things that God does TO us can be UN-done.

Jesus warned his followers about the possibility of falling away. He even said at some point MANY would fall away from the faith and betray (sin against) others.

Yes, He did say that. And we KNOW that He never meant falling away from (losing) salvation. John 10:28 doesn't permit such a claim.

So I repeat, if a person enjoys any sin, they aren’t believing according to this scripture.

Please show me the Scripture. I've never seen any such verse.

Believing is not merely agreeing something is true as far as believing God is concerned.

I recommend that you consult with a Greek lexicon and learn what the Greek word means. I'll tell you what it doesn't mean. What you think it means.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No grace empowers me to obey.

In fact, no grace, no power. It's that simple. And your theology has no grace in it.

If you believe a brother can hate his brother and still have eternal life, then please post the scripture that says so.

Please square this claim with your previous claims that eternal life is given at 'the judgment". As it is, you're quite conflicted.

How can any believer have eternal life if it is given at "the judgment"?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I'm well aware of that concept, but there is no support for such an idea in Scripture. Jesus Himself noted some who "believed for a while, and in time of temptation/testing, fell away". There is no reason to assume He was saying "fell away from their salvation". The wording is clear that they fell away from what they believed, since they believed "for a while". That's all.

He says they will betray many. That is loving sin which means they are lost. You edit out and change what Jesus clearly says.

And there are no verses in Scripture that state that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved.

“He who endures to
the will be saved.“ According to Jesus, being saved is future so there is no being saved before the end. Ergo, no one is for sure saved today.

Again, I didn't do that. And I asked HOW I did that from your charge, and all you do is repeat yourself.

Yes you do. All OSASers do because they have to in order to maintain a theology no one in the Bible promised.

Can you provide any explanation of how I "edited" out anything?

I did.

This has no bearing or relevance on my point. Which you seem not to understand.

I understand it more deeply than you do.

Of course those who no longer believe will deligh in sin. And it doesn't change the fact that it is ONLY those who "have not believed" that will be condemned.

They are described as those who love sin. Doesn’t matter if they once believed or not.

Why are you ignoring those very clear words?

I read the whole Bible and don’t edit out bits as you do.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No grace empowers me to obey.


If you believe a brother can hate his brother and still have eternal life, then please post the scripture that says so.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15
JLB

OSASrs believe if you once believed you can sin like the devil and go to heaven. They believe they have fire insurance.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He says they will betray many. That is loving sin which means they are lost. You edit out and change what Jesus clearly says.

Sorry to say, but you're not making sense. To whom does your first sentence refer to by "they will betray"? And what verse does it come from?

And again, WHERE have I "edited out" anything. I'm tiring of your unsubstantiated claims.

“He who endures to the will be saved.“ According to Jesus, being saved is future so there is no being saved before the end.

Could you please at least cite the verse you quote? And I will show you the ENTIRE context for this statement. It is about the Tribulation, which is a 7 year period of time, which means the statement referes to those IN the Tribulation, not the entire human race, or any other period of time.

Second, it is only an assumption that eternal soul salvation is in view. The word "save" means to "deliver or rescue" from some kind of danger. While it can refer to soul salvation, it refers, more times than not, to temporal deliverance.

So, you have taken a verse out of context and misapplied what it refers to.

Ergo, no one is for sure saved today.

Ergo, your statement is directly in opposition to what Jesus and Peter said.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Yes you do. All OSASers do because they have to in order to maintain a theology no one in the Bible promised.

Ergo, wrong again.

Please consider these verses very carefully:

1 Jn 2:25 - And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

Now these:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Do you see your error? Those who believe HAVE (that means POSSESS NOW) eternal life. And it is Jesus Himself who gives eternal life.

And recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

How long is "NEVER"?

I did. I understand it more deeply than you do.

It is apparent that you do not.

They are described as those who love sin.

Yes, unbelievers are described that way. But that is no reason to assume that loving sin are only those who never believed.

So, a question: when you (or any other believer sins), are they automatically unbelievers?

Doesn’t matter if they once believed or not.

Your opinion here is refuted directly by Scripture.

Those who believe (whenever they believe) possess eternal life. And Jesus SAID they shall never perish. And please note Jesus didn't add any conditions for recipients to meet or fulfill in order to never perish.

The guarantee (promise) is made to those who believe. They ARE given eternal life and they SHALL NEVER perish.

I read the whole Bible and don’t edit out bits as you do.

You have yet to prove your claim that I "edit out" anything. Even after I've asked for such evidence.

What you have done is edited IN your own opinions. And you've proved nothing of what you claim from Scripture. Unlike what I've done.

I find it interesting that you haven't even addressed any of the verses I've already shared. Do you ignore them, or just outright reject them?

If you think they mean something other than how I've presented them, please explain exactly what the verses do mean.

 

[FreeGrace2]

OSASrs believe if you once believed you can sin like the devil and go to heaven.

I know that offends you greatly. However, what we believe is what Jesus plainly said. That those who believe possess eternal life because He gives it to them, and they shall never perish. John 5:24, 10:28.

They believe they have fire insurance.

No, we believe what Jesus said. All who have believed have eternal life and shall never perish.

Do you know why Jesus said that? Because we are saved by GRACE, which it seems you don't like so much.

You don't and can't earn salvation by works of any kind, and you don't and can't UNearn it by works of any kind. Even though you think you do.

And you still haven't supported your opinion from Scripture.

 

[Tayla]

The words "have not believed" is in the aorist tense; meaning believed in a point of time. Past time.

What about those who were not yet born when Paul wrote this? They could not have believed in the past, only in the future.

Perhaps the point in time referred to is your death when what you believe determines your judgment. That's the only point in time which can be clearly established and that has only one of them. During your life it is not possible to know with certainty whether there even was an instant in which you chose to believe; it may be spread out over a period of time, perhaps years.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The words "have not believed" is in the aorist tense; meaning believed in a point of time. Past time.

What about those who were not yet born when Paul wrote this? They could not have believed in the past, only in the future.

The same principle would apply. For everyone future to what Paul wrote, if they EVER believed, they will not be condemned.

Perhaps the point in time referred to is your death when what you believe determines your judgment.

Our "judgment" is determined either at the point of believing in Christ or at our death.

Here is the verse:
John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

During your life it is not possible to know with certainty whether there even was an instant in which you chose to believe

Jesus was very clear about WHEN one actually possesses the gift of eternal life:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Possession of eternal life is based on believing, WHEN one believes. There is no probationary time period before God grants the gift. It is WHEN one believes that one then possesses eternal life. And will never perish.

it may be spread out over a period of time, perhaps years.

Do you have a verse to support this claim?

 

[Gr8Grace]

No grace empowers me to obey.

So, It is grace that fails if you don't quite measure up when you die and face judgment?

And By the way......I know what Grace is. Yet, you have grace contingent on how well JLB behave's.

If you believe a brother can hate his brother and still have eternal life, then please post the scripture that says so.

Easy. 1 John 3:15. If a brother hates his brother.......He is not ABIDING in the eternal he HAS.

That pesky word "abide" is a spear to the heart of your false doctrine. How can one abide.......in something they don't have?


The wind is out of your sails..........so keep being borderline insane with your questions.

 

[Gr8Grace]

OSASrs believe if you once believed you can sin like the devil and go to heaven. They believe they have fire insurance.

And the loss of salvation crowd thinks that if they act like satan as an angel of light.........they will be saved.

2 Cor 11:14~~New American Standard Bible
No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

 

[Gr8Grace]

In fact, no grace, no power. It's that simple. And your theology has no grace in it.

Amen.

In fact, Grace is a cuss word in his theology. That is why we see creature 'power' over and over and over in his theology and never.................CREATOR power. Grace is completely lost and non-existent in what he presents to us.

 

[Gr8Grace]

The interesting part is how you have to edit out “but delighted in sin” to come to your conclusion. This shows an unwillingness to believe the truth.

What is interesting is the fact that you have edited out "wickedness" for "sin."

Wickedness is unrighteousness......And sin is NOT used in this verse.

Where are all the verses of Jesus going into the brothels,bars and 'sin all you want' locations and just chewing sinners out and sending them to hell?........None and nowhere.

But the WICKED and UNRIGHTEOUS he dealt with them in scathing ways...........Vipers.White washed tombs. Making people twice the child of hell that they were. The wicked/unrighteous place a subjective standard of 'good' on people and lead them astray in their OWN good. Which is dung or used menstrual rags/wicked in the eyes of the Lord.

 

[FreeGrace2]

For the believers who believe that salvation can be lost by how one lives:

Salvation is about what Jesus Christ did for US. Not ever about what we have done for Him. Salvation is a one way street. All we can do is receive the gift. And there is no merit in receiving a gift. All the credit goes to the Giver, never the recipient for taking what is offered freely.

Unless and until that is understood, the believer who thinks salvation can be lost is simply under the delusion that they have some part in their salvation, more than simply receiving it.

Now, that is grace. And those who believe salvation can be lost don't understand grace.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Unless and until that is understood, the believer who thinks salvation can be lost is simply under the delusion that they have some part in their salvation, more than simply receiving it.

And we simply NEED to know this in order to advance in the life He has planned for us. Or to mature in Him.

We may have went to seminary, been saved for 50 years, have our lives cleaned up to the max and done many wonderful works.........But our RELATIONSHIP with Christ and the life He had planned for us is stuck on start. Because we never got past infancy and the milk of His word.