2 issues raised with sad story of an ex-preacher

[Born to Watch]

You are right Truther, How can Christian preach the word of God... to non-christians. When a great majority have lost track of the message the bible is trying to bring us...

Almost like before showcasing our house for other people to see, we need to clean it up...

I believe that main issue here is that..., A lot and lot of Churches..., just market the bible and Christian faith as... John 3:16. God's Love, Love of GOD, GOD is LOVE, Love is GOD.

And yet, if you look at the whole bible..., there is only that bit that talks about God's Love.

The rest is about 3 things... Repentance, Faith & Obedience.

But these 3 don't sound as good as LOVE and everlasting LOVE. So Churches don't bother preaching these 3 anymore. Instead just focus on Love.

I study that bible, and I'm not denying that GOD loves his followers..., but the message for his followers is still Repentance, Faith & Obedience.
And not LOVE.

And so, when you ignore that key message of the bible, and you start adding other words to it...

Like...

UNCONDITIONAL
ACCEPTANCE
TOLERANCE
TRINITY

which are nowhere to be found in the bible, you get what you're reading now, and those people that go to Church and don't read the bible are easily mislead...

ok..., Moving onto your 2nd part...
Let's clarify 1 thing, No one is worthy and no one will ever be worthy.
and that's why we believe in Jesus's Mercy and Grace.

But being a Christian is about obeying God's command, and that I mean the bible...
If the bible says we should go to church, then we go to church.
If the bible says we should read the bible and pray, then we read the bible and pray
If the bible says Homo-sexuality is wrong, then we have to accept it as wrong.

As Christians, it's impossible to achieve everything that the bible says,
but starting to acknowledge that you can't it's the beginning and path to Salvation.

In other words, you can't say I'm Christian, but think homesexuality is ok
or Divorce is ok. Although some churches I've been preach that they're ok...
That's just some misleading pastor preaching the wrong thing, and not the Word of GOD.

And So the most important thing is to read the holy bible with the help of the spirit, and not add words to it to distort the message.

If GOD's love was unconditional, don't you think that word "Unconditional"
would be in the bible? and yet it's nowhere to be found.

Wrong completely and utterly. That is a works doctrine where you rely on yourself and not Jesus.

The whole message of the bible Old and New is Jesus.
The only reason you are a Christian is because of Jesus, without Jesus you have nothing.
Jesus left His Spirit to guide you in your walk.

 

[Born to Watch]

Forget about the non christians for a moment and return to the reason for the article which was certain clergy becoming atheists after training to be clergy and several decades of ministry as all these examples in the article were etc. I think non christians are the least of most churches worries your biggest worries seem to be within your own ranks, cant blame non christians for that one.
Secondly how would you regard non church attending christians are they less worthy of Gods unconditional love than church attending christians. Considering how unholy the majority of mainstream churches have become i would have thought those christians whom do not seek fellowship are just as worthy if not more worthy than those that attend many heretical post modern established churches every sunday at the whim of a bell curve!.

Christs church is made up of sinners of course its it has problems. That is part of Christianity, This aint heaven and this side of it every human is a sinner.

Many Christians dont go to church, thats no suprise or secret either. In fact the bible states a church is a gathering of only a few believers.
I dont know what constitutes a church from a pagan perspective?

 

[DarkMonk]

Wrong completely and utterly. That is a works doctrine where you rely on yourself and not Jesus.

The whole message of the bible Old and New is Jesus.
The only reason you are a Christian is because of Jesus, without Jesus you have nothing.
Jesus left His Spirit to guide you in your walk.

youtube.com/watch?v=nQBOJhB73aM
youtube.com/watch?v=bg5O6imndWY
youtube.com/watch?v=xrm7SAC3Gio
youtube.com/watch?v=nQBOJhB73aM

PAY EXTRA ATTETION TO PART 2...

He is and completely right...

GOD's love is not UNCONDITIONAL

From one of the Leading pastors in the UK.

 

[DarkMonk]

Wrong completely and utterly. That is a works doctrine where you rely on yourself and not Jesus.
.

youtube.com/watch?v=nQBOJhB73aM
youtube.com/watch?v=bg5O6imndWY
youtube.com/watch?v=xrm7SAC3Gio
youtube.com/watch?v=nQBOJhB73aM

PAY EXTRA ATTETION TO PART 2...

He is and completely right...

GOD's love is not UNCONDITIONAL

 

[Johnnz]

You are right Truther, How can Christian preach the word of God... to non-christians. When a great majority have lost track of the message the bible is trying to bring us...

Almost like before showcasing our house for other people to see, we need to clean it up...

I believe that main issue here is that..., A lot and lot of Churches..., just market the bible and Christian faith as... John 3:16. God's Love, Love of GOD, GOD is LOVE, Love is GOD.

And yet, if you look at the whole bible..., there is only that bit that talks about God's Love.

The rest is about 3 things... Repentance, Faith & Obedience.

But these 3 don't sound as good as LOVE and everlasting LOVE. So Churches don't bother preaching these 3 anymore. Instead just focus on Love.

I study that bible, and I'm not denying that GOD loves his followers..., but the message for his followers is still Repentance, Faith & Obedience.
And not LOVE.

And so, when you ignore that key message of the bible, and you start adding other words to it...

Like...

UNCONDITIONAL
ACCEPTANCE
TOLERANCE
TRINITY

which are nowhere to be found in the bible, you get what you're reading now, and those people that go to Church and don't read the bible are easily mislead...

And So the most important thing is to read the holy bible with the help of the spirit, and not add words to it to distort the message.

If GOD's love was unconditional, don't you think that word "Unconditional"
would be in the bible? and yet it's nowhere to be found.

Getting back to the original topic, that post illustrates a possible answer - a faith rooted in dogmatism that leads to irrelevance to daily living for some can lead to a crisis of faith for some, from burnout, to becoming a spectator outside of a church commitment, to abandoning ones' faith altogether.

So, love is an imbalance in Scripture?

Usage in the NT (KJV)

Love 179 occurrences
Repentance 25 occurrences
Faith 245 occurrences
Obedience 12 occurrences

Hope 60 occurrences*
*I added hope as Paul links and highlights these three in 1 Cor 13.

I don't see preaching about love a lot is at all unbalanced biblically based on the above information. Rather repentance seems rather badly overdone in some circles.

Let's look at two words on your list a bit further.

Unconditional. Two OT Covenants a) The covenant with Noah. No condition attached. God just stated how it was. b) The Mosaic covenant depended on both parties keeping to its provisions, otherwise there were consequences. Using a word not found in Scripture is no more that describing a difference found in Scripture. It neither negates nor contradicts nor adds to any biblical teaching. It is simply explanatory.

Trinity
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. NIV

That verse refers to Jesus. It echoes Genesis 1:1 "in the beginning". It states Jesus was there when creation took place with God and that He was God. What does that mean then?

Did Jesus come into existence after God but before creation?
Is God made up of two separate entities God and Jesus?
Did Jesus become God at his baptism when the Spirit came upon him? And who or what was that (S)spirit?
The father, son, and holy ghost are three modes, roles, or faces of a single person, God. This, of course, implies that Jesus Christ was purely divine, without humanness, and therefore could not truly have suffered or died.
Christ was not a real human being and did not have a real human body. He only seemed to be human to us.
Jesus was a human being who was "adopted" by God at his conception, at which point he developed a divine nature.
Jesus Christ was a special creation by God for man's salvation.
Jesus as the Son of God was a subordinate entity to God the Father

All these are heresies that challenged the early church fathers. Their response was to formulate teaching that used the word Trinity, from examination of the many biblical texts, of which John 1:1 is an example.

I imagine you believe God is all knowing (omniscient), all powerful (omnipotent) and all present (omnipresent). None of these 'omni' words are in the scriptures either.

A faith that is blind, uninformed, lacking good exegetical principles and has few reference points beyond one's own understanding of the Scriptures can lead to disillusionment. In a pastoral context I have seen many deeply troubled people, who have tried all the prevailing formulas diligently yet remained unchanged, have had their lives transformed when given fresh, life related biblical insights and principles. I have helped many, including those in ministry, re-establish their faith, after finding the limitations of the ones they had. Some now have internationally recognised ministries. The truth has life and does set free.

John
NZ



Those were questions

 

[Born to Watch]

You know that was not an exegesis but a topical statement he made.

Its true that Christians have the love of God and those not called wont receive it, irrespective we are given a commission to preach the gospel. Thats not debatable.
I dont question that God is a terrible God of judgement.

My point is that Gods love for Christians is unconditional.
That is my contention with your point. Mine is a Gospel of Holy Spirit revelation and awakening, not a man made choice.

 

[DarkMonk]

This is David Pawson by the way...

David Pawson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Just Read the scripture (Bible)...

And see how much we got wrong...

John 3:16 is NOT the center of the bible.

 

[TrutherAU]

Theres a much bigger picture issue here than just individual failing.There is the systematic agenda corruption of most reformed churches(not even going to mention catholics) via the WCC (World Council of Churches) which is very much a tool of Satan be cause it is nothing but another arm of the Illuminati you all read this for yourselfs this is good place to start; The Unholy Alliance - Christianity & The NWO the point is do most pastors write their own homilies without fear or favour to Gods word as per the bible or do most simply write them according to according to WCC sanction and approval thats the question here.

 

[DarkMonk]

Getting back to the original topic, that post illustrates a possible answer - a faith rooted in dogmatism that leads to irrelevance to daily living for some can lead to a crisis of faith for some, from burnout, to becoming a spectator outside of a church commitment, to abandoning ones' faith altogether.

You telling me that me interpreting and studying the bible,
can lead to a crisis of faith, burnout??

I think is by not reading the bible, and just going to church as an spectator that leads to all that..

I'm just arguing the bits Christian Churches got wrong..., I didn't say all Churches...
I've been to a few Churches in which I go in and come out feeling completely empty...

So, love is an imbalance in Scripture?

Usage in the NT (KJV)

Love 179 occurrences
Repentance 25 occurrences
Faith 245 occurrences
Obedience 12 occurrences

Hope 60 occurrences*
*I added hope as Paul links and highlights these three in 1 Cor 13.

I don't see preaching about love a lot is at all unbalanced biblically based on the above information. Rather repentance seems rather badly overdone in some circles.

Don't change what I saying..., I'm not talking about how many times these words come up in the bible...

I'm talking about how many times "God's Love" comes up in all the chapter/ books...
Compared to how many times the teachings of Faith and Repentance.
Put it into context.

out of those 179 occurrences of the word Love, how many specifically related to the context of "God's LOVE"

Let's look at two words on your list a bit further.
Unconditional. Two OT Covenants a) The covenant with Noah. No condition attached. God just stated how it was. b) The Mosaic covenant depended on both parties keeping to its provisions, otherwise there were consequences. Using a word not found in Scripture is no more that describing a difference found in Scripture. It neither negates nor contradicts nor adds to any biblical teaching. It is simply explanatory.

Again, I'm discussing the word "Unconditional" in the context of LOVE
God's Love.

All I'm asking is where "God's love is unconditional" came from, since I don't see it anywhere in the bible.

Trinity
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. NIV

That verse refers to Jesus. It echoes Genesis 1:1 "in the beginning". It states Jesus was there when creation took place with God and that He was God. What does that mean then?

Did Jesus come into existence after God but before creation?
Is God made up of two separate entities God and Jesus?
Did Jesus become God at his baptism when the Spirit came upon him? And who or what was that (S)spirit?
The father, son, and holy ghost are three modes, roles, or faces of a single person, God. This, of course, implies that Jesus Christ was purely divine, without humanness, and therefore could not truly have suffered or died.
Christ was not a real human being and did not have a real human body. He only seemed to be human to us.
Jesus was a human being who was "adopted" by God at his conception, at which point he developed a divine nature.
Jesus Christ was a special creation by God for man's salvation.
Jesus as the Son of God was a subordinate entity to God the Father

All these are heresies that challenged the early church fathers. Their response was to formulate teaching that used the word Trinity, from examination of the many biblical texts, of which John 1:1 is an example.

In short to your questions..., Jesus was human and GOD. He was both.
That's how the bible describes him, anything else would had been added.
He suffered, He died, He was tempted --> All human conditions...
YET...
He did not sin, He walked over water, he converted water to wine,
he healed people by touching them, he resurrected from the death. --> ALL Godly aspects.

Like our faith, everything is half half...in a strict balance...
i.e We have the key to enter the kingdom of Heaven, and yet we haven't entered it yet.
We sin, and yet we've been forgiven.

I imagine you believe God is all knowing (omniscient), all powerful (omnipotent) and all present (omnipresent). None of these 'omni' words are in the scriptures either.

Yes, and your point is?? if Omniscient means exactly the same as all knowing then...that's ok with me.
But if it slightly changes the meaning, then we shouldn't be using it..
In my personal opinion, I would rather say GOD is all present, as compared to omnipresent, but that's my choice.

A faith that is blind, uninformed, lacking good exegetical principles and has few reference points beyond one's own understanding of the Scriptures can lead to disillusionment. In a pastoral context I have seen many deeply troubled people, who have tried all the prevailing formulas diligently yet remained unchanged, have had their lives transformed when given fresh, life related biblical insights and principles. I have helped many, including those in ministry, re-establish their faith, after finding the limitations of the ones they had. Some now have internationally recognised ministries. The truth has life and does set free.
John
NZ

Those were questions

I agree with you, and I wouldn't even dare to share such misunderstanding of the Scriptures if it wasn't based on careful study and research
backup by one of the best bible teachers in the world(to me)...David Pawson.

David Pawson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most Churches these days only preach the love of GOD, which is OK.
We need to spread his Love & Grace...

But also

As David explained...
repentance towards God; believing in Jesus, baptism in water and receiving the Holy Spirit.

The half-half picture...

God as our Savior. God's Grace
God as a consuming fire. God's Wrath.

 

[DarkMonk]

Theres a much bigger picture issue here than just individual failing.There is the systematic agenda corruption of most reformed churches(not even going to mention catholics) via the WCC (World Council of Churches) which is very much a tool of Satan be cause it is nothing but another arm of the Illuminati you all read this for yourselfs this is good place to start; The Unholy Alliance - Christianity & The NWO the point is do most pastors write their own homilies without fear or favour to Gods word as per the bible or do most simply write them according to according to WCC sanction and approval thats the question here.

As Christians we know that GOD is not in all churches..., and you're right.
Satan would stop at nothing to corrupt the Churches.

But what Satan can never corrupt is the Holy Spirit, and so when going to Church and reading the bible, it's the Holy spirit that guide us.

Pastors jobs is just help to guide the sheep, But We as Christians or church goers have also the responsibility of being vigilant and not let Satan corrupt it.

 

[Born to Watch]

The Pastors jobs is just help to guide the sheep, But We as Christians or church goers have also the responsibility of being vigilant and not let Satan corrupt it.

as well as guide and reprimand the Pastor if need be.
He is part of Christs flock as well.

 

[DarkMonk]

You know that was not an exegesis but a topical statement he made.

My point is that Gods love for Christians is unconditional.
That is my contention with your point. Mine is a Gospel of Holy Spirit revelation and awakening, not a man made choice.

Ok, after a nap...maybe I can explain things a bit better...hopefully...

I totally agree that God's love for Christians is unconditional..., I can never deny that...

But the issue we have is that..., his Love is unconditional to us (Christians) and we say that because we Already met the condition... We have passed the biggest condition which is by putting our faith in Jesus.
So off course it's unconditional, because we already have meet the condition...

BUT...

I put myself outside for 1 min...(If I wasn't a Christian), and I hear a Christian saying...His love is unconditional...

My most basic thought would be "God loves me"..., without having to put any faith on Jesus or trying to find the Spirit.

It's one of those things of being Christians... We know his love...
But I believe that we have to be careful on how we express/preach is Love.

And so, I end with this final statement of...
God love is unconditional for Christians, because we met the condition already, BUT when it comes to preaching it, it could be the most misleading statement ever.

Because at the end of the day, no-one is born Christian, we all become Christians by meeting that condition of putting our utmost faith on Jesus.

 

[Blessedj01]

Don't overthink it. God loves everybody. A candle in a room shines light on whoever walks in that room, no matter how "good," or "bad" they are, who they are or where they come from. Even if they hate candles, it'll still shed warmth and light on them.

 

[TrutherAU]

BW;

I dont know what constitutes a church from a pagan perspective?

Very presumptious of you however I am not a pagan despite what your black & white view of the world presumes.
Its bit like me presuming your a freemason without any evidence! You see two can play that game of suspicion and presumption on the net about those they have never met in person however it comes across as a tad rude if not arrogant!.

















;

 

[Born to Watch]

Then we're doing it wrong aren't we???
Jesus has "ONLY" told his followers and people who have faith in HIM,
That "I WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOU"...

So why are we telling everyone(including non-Christians) that HE will always love you...

Well I dont.
I tell others if they become Christians Gods love is unconditional.
Where are Christians running around telling everyone they will find salvation no matter what they believe.
I havnt witnessed it anywhere.
Slight over exaggeration from where I stand,

 

[Born to Watch]

BW;

Very presumptious of you however I am not a pagan despite what your black & white view of the world presumes.
Its bit like me presuming your a freemason without any evidence! You see two can play that game of suspicion and presumption on the net about those they have never met in person however it comes across as a tad rude if not arrogant!.




;

Pagan is defined as somebody without a religious view, as you dont like it I will stop using that term, though in my defense


1. one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks. Synonyms: polytheist.
2.
a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim. Synonyms: heathen, gentile; idolator; nonbeliever.
3.
an irreligious or hedonistic person.
4.
a person deemed savage or uncivilized and morally deficient.
adjective
5.
pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim. Synonyms: heathen, heathenish, idolatrous, polytheistic. Antonyms: Christian, Jewish, Muslim, monotheistic.
6.
of, pertaining to, or characteristic of pagans.
7.
irreligious or hedonistic. Synonyms: unbelieving, godless, atheistic, agnostic; impious, profane, sacrilegious, unholy, ungodly. Antonyms: religious, pious, devout.
8.
of a person deemed backward, savage, or uncivilized or morally or spiritually stunted. Synonyms: primitive, uncultivated, uncultured, heathenish, barbaric, barbarous, philistine. Antonyms: civilized, cultivated, cultured, urbane.

Pagan | Define Pagan at Dictionary.com

I dont see it as rude or arrogant but accurate, anyway sorry.

 

[TrutherAU]

.

one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks. Synonyms: polytheist.
2.
a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim. Synonyms: heathen, gentile; idolator; nonbeliever.
3.
an irreligious or hedonistic person.
4.
a person deemed savage or uncivilized and morally deficient.
adjective
5.
pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim. Synonyms: heathen, heathenish, idolatrous, polytheistic. Antonyms: Christian, Jewish, Muslim, monotheistic.
6.
of, pertaining to, or characteristic of pagans.
7.
irreligious or hedonistic. Synonyms: unbelieving, godless, atheistic, agnostic; impious, profane, sacrilegious, unholy, ungodly. Antonyms: religious, pious, devout.
8.
of a person deemed backward, savage, or uncivilized or morally or spiritually stunted. Synonyms: primitive, uncultivated, uncultured, heathenish, barbaric, barbarous, philistine. Antonyms: civilized, cultivated, cultured, urbane.

Pagan | Define Pagan at Dictionary.com

I dont see it as rude or arrogant but accurate, anyway sorry.

Still havent answered how this relates to yours truly

irreligious or hedonistic. Synonyms: unbelieving, godless, atheistic, agnostic; impious, profane, sacrilegious, unholy, ungodly. Antonyms: religious, pious, devout.

According to this definition irreligious may also cover those who consider themselves christian but do not seek felllowship(attend est church) so according to this definition even if i believe in christ and follow the gospels these people (such as myself) would not be considered christian because the fact they do not attend church makes them irreligious i would either have to completely disagree with that definition or suggest the definition needs some revision to make relevant to 21st ce as there are many who accept christ but refuse to participate in religious services and the numbers are only growing!

Btw to clarify my postion succintly i am not religious however i am follower of christ! This is possible and its about time more religious christans accepted it as a valid point of existenial christian faith, theologians/philosophers figures in history like Kierkgaard certainly did!

 

[Blessedj01]

Well, the point is that God will still love you even if you don't love Him back. So we can say that God loves them, even if they are not Christians. Sometimes that convicts people when they realize what that means. However, saying that by it'self is not going to do much. We'd do a disservice if we gave everyone that incomplete picture of salvation. That's why we need the bad news...and the good news.

 

[Born to Watch]

.

Still havent answered how this relates to yours truly

Btw to clarify my postion succintly i am not religious however i am follower of christ! This is possible and its about time more religious christans accepted it as a valid point of existenial christian faith, theologians/philosophers figures in history like Kierkgaard certainly did!

Hmmm
Well, lets see

In light of this comment "I think non christians are the least of most churches worries your biggest worries seem to be within your own ranks, cant blame non christians for that one. "

I made an assumption, silly one in hindsight. See the "your' and "your" it seemed to me you were excluding yourself from Christianity.
Hence my error.
Will a sorry do?


as for irreligious, I classify myself a believer in Jesus. No religion either. Have done for many years.