2 issues raised with sad story of an ex-preacher

[Born to Watch]

so, How can a God that loves us unconditionally, Judge us for our works?
But it's unconditional right??? how can He judge us then???

The only explanation is...

Same as Salvation, God's love is NOT unconditional.
You can't have conditions for one, and not for the other. And We all know what the conditions are for Salvation...Faith in Jesus.

And I've got no idea what Armianisms is...never heard of it before.

You didnt read Ephesians 1 did you.

We will not be judged as Christians for our sin, but our works in the Holy Spirit. Those works in the Spirit will be rewarded with crowns in heaven.


Sola Fide, Salvation by faith alone.
To the Christian Gods love is unconditional.

Tell me Darkmonk did God call you or did you choose God or both

 

[joey_downunder]

Hmmm.... I am trying to imagine which facial expression and accent you're using while using the "yeah but no but" strategy in the video. "She" should done an Aussie accent instead of the usual "oui... non" like "yeaah .. nuh mate"

Or a philosophical version " but that's obvious... no you prove it....logical fallacy... misquote... irrelevant for modern times.... politically incorrect".

 

[Blessedj01]

God does love us unconditionally. He created us, knowing we'd try to put Him out of the picture. He went ahead of us, planning to lay down His life for us even though we'd be ungrateful. He knew, that every single one of us would stand there cheering for Him to be put up on the cross. We made a partnership with the devil, we wanted to throw our Father out of His house and put ourselves on His throne.

He does love us unconditionally. He just doesn't love sin. He loves US, he just can't bear to look at us unless we are pure like we once were, when we were originally created in His image. He can't have children that don't come from His house, can't have offspring that aren't based on His image - we covered the image God gave us with sin.

So...God became flesh and was put up on the cross to satisfy the wrath for our sin, to provide atonement for it, so that He could look upon us through the worthy blood of Jesus. Jesus satisfied the entire wrath of God, meaning we're not only forgiven when we accept His sacrifice, but also our sins are FORGOTTEN.

He did everything He could to redeem us, short of taking away our free-will. It's not God who has conditional love - it's us. We don't love God. So when we die in this state of enmity with God, he HAS to punish us because He is just. He is a Holy and righteous God, who suffered upon Himself the eternal consequences of our sin. If we IGNORE HIM to the grave, we won't be able to communion with Him in eternity.

Does that mean He no longer loves us if He has to judge us rightly? No, It grieves Him eternally. He was so concerned about it that He did something about it. He doesn't owe us anything...yet He writes our names on His palms. There's no comparison to the love God has for His people.

Put it this way. If God -didn't- love us, He wouldn't judge sin. Judging sin is an act that stems from His love, if He didn't hate it and provide the answer for it through Jesus, He would not only be a weak and inconsistent God, He'd be letting the devil defeat us and allowing His creation to be overthrown by darkness. The only way we can have any order - not just on earth but in Eternity - is to have justice.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

DM: Paul is reiterating Jesus' words
BB: Ok, show us where Jesus said those things.
Joey: Here <quote from bible>
BB: No, that doesn't say anything about those claims.
Joey: I showed you it does and you're being difficult.
BB: You didn't show any such thing. Try again.
Joey: <plays logical fallacy> I accuse you of not knowing what you're position is.
BB: <ignores irrelevant video> You just used a logical fallacy. Try again.
Joey: I repeat my accusation that you don't know what you're talking about. You should accept my answer even though it contains no substance and doesn't answer the question.

 

[joey_downunder]

I see it one way, you choose to interpret it another (i.e. ignore what the bible says clearly).

This discussion has reached this point and it's just going to go 'round and round like these two:
You Say 'Tomato', I say 'Tomato'... - YouTube

P.S. How on earth can anyone dance on roller skates?! :o

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Indeed - I say one sentence is just one sentence, you say that single sentence encompasses every word Paul said.

One of us is reading a lot more into it than the other because they need it to be true in order to justify their belief

 

[TrutherAU]

Family, social and educational reasons direct some in to ministry as well

Thats covers 99% of the reasons, most have faith just because their over paternalistic ultraconservative sheltered usually middle class family existence brainwashed their rational brain thus they are completely conditioned in this direction without even knowing their own mind!
I think i have some insight as ex theology student big difference between those that choose to have faith in something & those whose family has too much control over their brain because they have been too sheltered and lived in family that doesnt in encourage independent thought which most christian families dont!.

 

[suzybeezy]

MOD HAT ON

Folks, please watch the flaming comments

MOD HAT OFF

 

[Johnnz]

An apparent contradiction between unconditional love and doping the right things to avoid rejection or judgement mocks the NT message. But it can be resolved.

God's love is unconditional as is our forgiveness. That's what the New Covenant is about, made for us by Father and Son through the Spirit. We cannot alter or place conditions on that covenant in any way.

Then there is our choice. We can chose to accept and live within that covenant as a member of God's family. What I then become personally responsible for is how well I build into my lifestyle what is always so freely available. The essence of sin is independence from God. I can make choices and adopt values that are not consistent with who I am in Christ, that do not reflect His life, empowered and motivated by the Spirit within me. This is not really an issue of works at all; it is simply living badly. The various evidences listed in the NT of the new life within each of are not rules, but rather descriptions of what Jesus' life looks like. That's what Father wants us to become.

Thus, as family members we all have responsibilities to fulfil, but not rules to obey. When I miss living from that inner source of life (Jesus) there are consequences. Firstly, I deprive myself of what is truly best for me. That's just dumb. Secondly, I am to be a responsible steward of the life and gifts given to me. That is what I will give account for one day. But not my salvation because I "was not good enough". None of us are or can be. We rely on God's grace and mercy always. We are never to live with any sense of falling 'in or out' of Father's favour and relationship depending on a whole pile of obligations. We are never to live under a constant apprehension of God's disapproval and disfavour. That is how pagans live, not Christians.

Just as a sometimes naughty child never ceases ceases to be part of his family and loved by his parents nevertheless, so it is with being part of God's family. I have not bound myself to Him as much as He has bound himself to me.

Hallelujah. What a Saviour.

John
NZ

 

[tBCfC]

An apparent contradiction between unconditional love and doping the right things to avoid rejection or judgement...

Is that a reference to rohypnol?

 

[Johnnz]

Is that a reference to rohypnol?

Nope

John
NZ

 

[DarkMonk]

.

To the Christian Gods love is unconditional.

Tell me Darkmonk did God call you or did you choose God or both

To the Christians, God's love is unconditional. I partly agree with that...

if that's the case, then God's love is conditional to everyone else "WHO IS NOT A CHRISTIAN" and if that's the case...

Why are we telling the world and everyone that God's love is unconditional?

God did call me at a very very young age, but I also choose GOD.
Love is "both" ways. One way Love is not called Love.

 

[Johnnz]

To the Christians, God's love is unconditional. I partly agree with that...

if that's the case, then God's love is conditional to everyone else "WHO IS NOT A CHRISTIAN" and if that's the case...

Why are we telling the world and everyone that God's love is unconditional?

God did call me at a very very young age, but I also choose GOD.
Love is "both" ways. One way Love is not called Love.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! NIV

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world....

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, ...NIV

John
NZ

 

[DarkMonk]

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! NIV

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world....

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, ...NIV

John
NZ

Yep John...I know I know I know...

And that's the part that we got it wrong you know....

All the "Love" in the gospel of John...was meant for Christians only.

And that's why is the last of the 4th Gospels, because when John wrote it, he Wrote it for Christians....But we're using this Gospel intended for Christians only for everybody(non-Christians)

That's why there is no 1 single mention of love in the previous 3 Gospels...

And you mentioned John 3:16..., my reply is John 3:17-18. That sounds pretty conditional to me, doesnt it to you too?

 

[Born to Watch]

To the Christians, God's love is unconditional. I partly agree with that...

if that's the case, then God's love is conditional to everyone else "WHO IS NOT A CHRISTIAN" and if that's the case...

Why are we telling the world and everyone that God's love is unconditional?

God did call me at a very very young age, but I also choose GOD.
Love is "both" ways. One way Love is not called Love.

We are telling the world Gods love is unconditional because we are told to by Jesus, we are also Spirit lead to evangelise the gospel.
I dont know who God has chosen so I will evangelise and pray the Spirit uses me to help accomplish His work.

God has chosen the bride for Christ. God chooses and the bride, well its not everyone.

The old Calvinist vs Arminian argument.
For me it is Calvinism, how can we as humans choose God without the Spirit.
Though I am not 100% Calvinist, maybe close??
Calvinism and Arminianism comparison

 

[DarkMonk]

We are telling the world Gods love is unconditional because we are told to by Jesus, we are also Spirit lead to evangelise the gospel.
I dont know who God has chosen so I will evangelise and pray the Spirit uses me to help accomplish His work.

God has chosen the bride for Christ. God chooses and the bride, well its not everyone.

The old Calvinist vs Arminian argument.
For me it is Calvinism, how can we as humans choose God without the Spirit.
Though I am not 100% Calvinist, maybe close??

Then we're doing it wrong aren't we???
Jesus has "ONLY" told his followers and people who have faith in HIM,
That "I WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOU"...

So why are we telling everyone(including non-Christians) that HE will always love you...

I'm just trying to clear up the mess here...

For Christians, You can say "God will love you"
For Non-Christians we have to preach... REPENT, And put your Faith on Jesus... AND "HE WILL LOVE YOU"

You're right...WE don't know who GOD has chosen...
And so...
We should preach to everyone...

Do you repent of your own sinfulness?
“For our God is a consuming fire.” Hebrews 12:29

The Love part you leave to GOD..., We can't be telling everybody
"GOD LOVES YOU" because you don't know if GOD Love that person do you?
same way you don't know if HE has chosen that person...

And So going out and preaching GOD's love to everybody is misleading...

Instead, We should focus on Repentance, Faith, Mercy & Grace leading to LOVE.

Every single of Jesus Disciples..., how did they preach?,
1.REPENT NOW FOR HE IS YOUR LORD...
OR
2.Instead of what we're doing now which is...
Here comes the GOD of LOVE to save you, and HE will always love you unconditionally...(except for John, who targeted Christians only)

Which of the 2 options above sound more like Jesus disciples? 1 or 2?
I don't know about you, but option 1 sounds like a lot of what HIS disciples did...

When the Lord made His Covenant with Abraham He revealed Himself as a burning torch (Genesis 15:17-18).

“That repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His Name to all nations…” He promised power from on high. Luke 24:47-49

God revealed Himself to Moses through the Burning Bush (Exodus 3:2-14).

When King David built an altar to the Lord and offered sacrifices, calling on the Lord, God answered him from Heaven by sending fire on the altar (I Chronicles 21:26).

John had a vision of the Lord Jesus standing in the midst of the seven lamp stands, “His eyes were a flame of fire: His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace and His voice as the sound of many waters.

“‘Is not My Word like a fire?’ Says the Lord, ‘and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?’” Jeremiah 23:29


The are sooo sooo many quotes about our GOD being like "Consuming Fire"
and almost no quotes at all about him being a GOD of LOVE.

Let me remind you, my fellow Christian brothers that our GOD is to be feared! Our God can wipe us all out in a matter of milliseconds...

And YES, his LOVE is expressed in the form of utmost Mercy & Grace.

That we should had been all wiped out from the face of the Earth if it wasn't because of HIS Mercy...

And that's why, we shouldn't be preaching the "GOD is love (unconditional)" term to non-believers...as it contradicts to the whole point of his Mercy.

I really HATE the word unconditional, because it means...
NO conditions..., ENTRY IS OPEN TO ALL, DO WHATEVER YOU WANT, JESUS WILL SAVE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US. NO NEED TO FOLLOW JESUS, NO NEED TO PRAY.

It's UNCONDITIONAL ISN'T IT?

 

[TrutherAU]

So why are we telling everyone(including non-Christians) that HE will always love you...

Forget about the non christians for a moment and return to the reason for the article which was certain clergy becoming atheists after training to be clergy and several decades of ministry as all these examples in the article were etc. I think non christians are the least of most churches worries your biggest worries seem to be within your own ranks, cant blame non christians for that one.
Secondly how would you regard non church attending christians are they less worthy of Gods unconditional love than church attending christians. Considering how unholy the majority of mainstream churches have become i would have thought those christians whom do not seek fellowship are just as worthy if not more worthy than those that attend many heretical post modern established churches every sunday at the whim of a bell curve!.

 

[Johnnz]

My comments are in bold

Yep John...I know I know I know...

And that's the part that we got it wrong you know....

All the "Love" in the gospel of John...was meant for Christians only.

And that's why is the last of the 4th Gospels, because when John wrote it, he Wrote it for Christians....But we're using this Gospel intended for Christians only for everybody(non-Christians)

That's why there is no 1 single mention of love in the previous 3 Gospels...

That's not completely true. The truth about Jesus is meant for all people. The point of John 3 is that Jesus is for all people, not just the Jews. The Gospel was indeed written for Christian, telling them about a saviour for the world.

John uses love and life in his gospels. The synoptic's writers used the terms kingdom of God or Kingdom of heaven which was God's call to all people.

And you mentioned John 3:16..., my reply is John 3:17-18. That sounds pretty conditional to me, doesnt it to you too?

John 3:16-21 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." NIV

I don't follow your line of thought. The sequence as I see it is presented in
a paragraph as goes (briefly)

Jesus expressed God's love for all of humanity (16)
His message was not for condemnation but one of hope (17)
Reject Jesus and you reject salvation (18)
Evil people prefer their darkness and tries to avoid exposure(19)
In contrast Jesus followers will have their wrongs exposed (20)

John
NZ

 

[DarkMonk]

Forget about the non christians for a moment and return to the reason for the article which was certain clergy becoming atheists after training to be clergy and several decades of ministry as all these examples in the article were etc. I think non christians are the least of most churches worries your biggest worries seem to be within your own ranks, cant blame non christians for that one.
Secondly how would you regard non church attending christians are they less worthy of Gods unconditional love than church attending christians. Considering how unholy the majority of mainstream churches have become i would have thought those christians whom do not seek fellowship are just as worthy if not more worthy than those that attend many heretical post modern established churches every sunday at the whim of a bell curve!.

You are right Truther, How can Christian preach the word of God... to non-christians. When a great majority have lost track of the message the bible is trying to bring us...

Almost like before showcasing our house for other people to see, we need to clean it up...

I believe that main issue here is that..., A lot and lot of Churches..., just market the bible and Christian faith as... John 3:16. God's Love, Love of GOD, GOD is LOVE, Love is GOD.

And yet, if you look at the whole bible..., there is only that bit that talks about God's Love.

The rest is about 3 things... Repentance, Faith & Obedience.

But these 3 don't sound as good as LOVE and everlasting LOVE. So Churches don't bother preaching these 3 anymore. Instead just focus on Love.

I study that bible, and I'm not denying that GOD loves his followers..., but the message for his followers is still Repentance, Faith & Obedience.
And not LOVE.

And so, when you ignore that key message of the bible, and you start adding other words to it...

Like...

UNCONDITIONAL
ACCEPTANCE
TOLERANCE
TRINITY

which are nowhere to be found in the bible, you get what you're reading now, and those people that go to Church and don't read the bible are easily mislead...

ok..., Moving onto your 2nd part...
Let's clarify 1 thing, No one is worthy and no one will ever be worthy.
and that's why we believe in Jesus's Mercy and Grace.

But being a Christian is about obeying God's command, and that I mean the bible...
If the bible says we should go to church, then we go to church.
If the bible says we should read the bible and pray, then we read the bible and pray
If the bible says Homo-sexuality is wrong, then we have to accept it as wrong.

As Christians, it's impossible to achieve everything that the bible says,
but starting to acknowledge that you can't it's the beginning and path to Salvation.

In other words, you can't say I'm Christian, but think homesexuality is ok
or Divorce is ok. Although some churches I've been preach that they're ok...
That's just some misleading pastor preaching the wrong thing, and not the Word of GOD.

And So the most important thing is to read the holy bible with the help of the spirit, and not add words to it to distort the message.

If GOD's love was unconditional, don't you think that word "Unconditional"
would be in the bible? and yet it's nowhere to be found.

 

[Born to Watch]

Then we're doing it wrong aren't we???
Jesus has "ONLY" told his followers and people who have faith in HIM,
That "I WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOU"...

So why are we telling everyone(including non-Christians) that HE will always love you...

I'm just trying to clear up the mess here...

For Christians, You can say "God will love you"
For Non-Christians we have to preach... REPENT, And put your Faith on Jesus... AND "HE WILL LOVE YOU"

You're right...WE don't know who GOD has chosen...
And so...
We should preach to everyone...

Do you repent of your own sinfulness?
&#8220;For our God is a consuming fire.&#8221; Hebrews 12:29

The Love part you leave to GOD..., We can't be telling everybody
"GOD LOVES YOU" because you don't know if GOD Love that person do you?
same way you don't know if HE has chosen that person...

And So going out and preaching GOD's love to everybody is misleading...

Instead, We should focus on Repentance, Faith, Mercy & Grace leading to LOVE.

Every single of Jesus Disciples..., how did they preach?,
1.REPENT NOW FOR HE IS YOUR LORD...
OR
2.Instead of what we're doing now which is...
Here comes the GOD of LOVE to save you, and HE will always love you unconditionally...(except for John, who targeted Christians only)

Which of the 2 options above sound more like Jesus disciples? 1 or 2?
I don't know about you, but option 1 sounds like a lot of what HIS disciples did...

When the Lord made His Covenant with Abraham He revealed Himself as a burning torch (Genesis 15:17-18).

&#8220;That repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His Name to all nations&#8230;&#8221; He promised power from on high. Luke 24:47-49

God revealed Himself to Moses through the Burning Bush (Exodus 3:2-14).

When King David built an altar to the Lord and offered sacrifices, calling on the Lord, God answered him from Heaven by sending fire on the altar (I Chronicles 21:26).

John had a vision of the Lord Jesus standing in the midst of the seven lamp stands, &#8220;His eyes were a flame of fire: His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace and His voice as the sound of many waters.

&#8220;&#8216;Is not My Word like a fire?&#8217; Says the Lord, &#8216;and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?&#8217;&#8221; Jeremiah 23:29


The are sooo sooo many quotes about our GOD being like "Consuming Fire"
and almost no quotes at all about him being a GOD of LOVE.

Let me remind you, my fellow Christian brothers that our GOD is to be feared! Our God can wipe us all out in a matter of milliseconds...

And YES, his LOVE is expressed in the form of utmost Mercy & Grace.

That we should had been all wiped out from the face of the Earth if it wasn't because of HIS Mercy...

And that's why, we shouldn't be preaching the "GOD is love (unconditional)" term to non-believers...as it contradicts to the whole point of his Mercy.

I really HATE the word unconditional, because it means...
NO conditions..., ENTRY IS OPEN TO ALL, DO WHATEVER YOU WANT, JESUS WILL SAVE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US. NO NEED TO FOLLOW JESUS, NO NEED TO PRAY.

It's UNCONDITIONAL ISN'T IT?

The Gospel is not aimed at all, that was never on the table.
The commission is aimed at all, "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel"
Salvation is unconditional to those that the Holy Spirit reveals it to, not everyone will have it revealed to them though.

Yes God is "Terrible", He has a destruction for humanity planned, thats not up for debate either.
The great commission is to preach John 3:16. The bible says we are to lift up Jesus not lift up the coming destruction, or Gods wrath.

God revealed himself finally as Jesus, the Imago Dei.