2 issues raised with sad story of an ex-preacher

[Born to Watch]

You're fully incorrect, sir.

I think he may be a little confused.
Still sinners but IN Christ, so effectively, yes we are not saved within ourselves and never will be.
But saved because we have salvation and redemption in Christ.
God sees Jesus when He sees us. 100% salvation now, through Jesus.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
2 Corinthians 5:17

 

[DarkMonk]

Dark Monk - how about repent and believe the Gospel?
Repent as in the metanoia meaning of the word.
Thinking about it - having heard some shocking altar calls in sermon reviews - I wonder how many of these people who fall away ever had the sense of extreme unworthiness and shame before God and that extreme gratitude when they realised what Jesus did for them of all people?

Not Bad Joey...

Repentance, Belief & Faith, Faith AND FAITH!!!

I've been a Christian since I was 4 years old, and I can't tell you how hard it has been...specially through the teen age years...

and I still feel unworthy after all this time..., and at the same time I know He's been by my side day by day...

Because without him, there is NO chance, I would had made it all this years..

My understanding of being Christian is... (correct me if you disagree)...

Do as per what GOD says, and What Jesus Told us to do.
Without questioning, without reasoning, without arguing.
Like Abraham did.

Doesn't matter if your actions goes against the entire world or current society, We're Children of God and so we follow HIM, and not the world.

And this involves current issues such as...Sexual Immorality, Gay Marriage, Divorce, Marriage through GOD, Hedonism, Rationalism, Materialism, etc etc etc.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

My understanding of being Christian is... (correct me if you disagree)...

Do as per what GOD says, and What Jesus Told us to do.
Without questioning, without reasoning, without arguing.
Like Abraham did.

Doesn't matter if your actions goes against the entire world or current society, We're Children of God and so we follow HIM, and not the world.

And this involves current issues such as...Sexual Immorality, Gay Marriage, Divorce, Marriage through GOD, Hedonism, Rationalism, Materialism, etc etc etc.

Allow me to correct you. You forgot the biggest one of all - do as Paul told you. The crux of Christianity has very little to do with what Jesus said, it has mostly to do with Paul. Just look at the things you quoted - where does Jesus mention them? He's pretty much silent. Paul, on the other hand, has a lot to say. Hmmm.......

 

[Born to Watch]

Not Bad Joey...



Do as per what GOD says, and What Jesus Told us to do.
Without questioning, without reasoning, without arguing.
Like Abraham did.

Doesn't matter if your actions goes against the entire world or current society, We're Children of God and so we follow HIM, and not the world.

And this involves current issues such as...Sexual Immorality, Gay Marriage, Divorce, Marriage through GOD, Hedonism, Rationalism, Materialism, etc etc etc.

Let me correct you and you do need correcting.


Our relationship is Christ focused not works focused.
God doesnt love us more if we work and do things for Him and he doesnt love us any less if we sin.
He is God, He wants a relationship based on love.

I suggest a book by Sky Jethani called "With"

 

[DarkMonk]

Allow me to correct you. You forgot the biggest one of all - do as Paul told you. The crux of Christianity has very little to do with what Jesus said, it has mostly to do with Paul. Just look at the things you quoted - where does Jesus mention them? He's pretty much silent. Paul, on the other hand, has a lot to say. Hmmm.......

Paul? you mean his disciples???

Everything in the bible are the words of Jesus Disciples..., Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, etc etc...
All what they ever did was to Follow Jesus, and all their teachings came from Jesus.
Most of the chapters are written as 3rd person, on how they observe Jesus, and What Jesus says to them.

So I don't know what you're getting at...

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Paul? you mean his disciples???

Everything in the bible are the words of Jesus Disciples..., Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, etc etc...
All what they ever did was to Follow Jesus, and all their teachings came from Jesus.
Most of the chapters are written as 3rd person, on how they observe Jesus, and What Jesus says to them.

So I don't know what you're getting at...

So the letters of Paul are in the 3rd person? What bible are you reading?

More importantly, though. If all Paul says is based on the words of Jesus you should have no trouble pointing us to those words in support of all those things you said...

 

[DarkMonk]

Let me correct you and you do need correcting.

Our relationship is Christ focused not works focused.
God doesnt love us more if we work and do things for Him and he doesnt love us any less if we sin.
He is God, He wants a relationship based on love.

I suggest a book by Sky Jethani called "With"

I don't disagree with what you're saying..., You're right...
on the relationship part...with GOD

BUT

I completely disagree with the way you talk about God's Love...

You saying as it doesn't matter what we DO, god will always love us no matter what...and that's wrong.

God's love is by far NOT unconditional.

 

[DarkMonk]

So the letters of Paul are in the 3rd person? What bible are you reading?

More importantly, though. If all Paul says is based on the words of Jesus you should have no trouble pointing us to those words in support of all those things you said...

Where have I said that the letters of Paul are in 3rd person???Don't put words in my mouth

I've said that Most books are written in 3rd person, as observers.

Bottom line is...

If you read the Bible without the Holly Spirit..., then to you it might be the same as reading a Harry's Potters Book...

I could try explaining every book, every chapter to a non-Christian, and to him it's just nonsense...

moreover, the bible was written by Hebrews for Hebrews..., and even Christians read it with a Greek reasoning level.

So I would encourage you to read and try to understand how Hebrew Mentality thinks...

Greek Mentality includes reasoning, We need to reason everything why, what, when...

Hebrews don't..., for them is GOD says, I'll do, no need to question.
That's how Abraham did it..., God Said to him sacrifice your son, and his reply was OK, no even a why.

So in other words, the Greek way of thinking almost has destroyed the message of faith that the bible teaches.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Where have I said that the letters of Paul are in 3rd person???Don't put words in my mouth

Right here

Everything in the bible are the words of Jesus Disciples..., Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, etc etc...
All what they ever did was to Follow Jesus, and all their teachings came from Jesus.
Most of the chapters are written as 3rd person, on how they observe Jesus, and What Jesus says to them.

moreover, the bible was written by Hebrews for Hebrews..., and even Christians read it with a Greek reasoning level.

So I would encourage you to read and try to understand how Hebrew Mentality thinks...

Greek Mentality includes reasoning, We need to reason everything why, what, when...

Hebrews don't..., for them is GOD says, I'll do, no need to question.
That's how Abraham did it..., God Said to him sacrifice your son, and his reply was OK, no even a why.

So in other words, the Greek way of thinking almost has destroyed the message of faith that the bible teaches.

I suspect you may not get a whole lot of support for that view. Saying Christians need to be unquestioning and Jews are stupid may not go down so well.

 

[Blessedj01]

So the letters of Paul are in the 3rd person? What bible are you reading?

More importantly, though. If all Paul says is based on the words of Jesus you should have no trouble pointing us to those words in support of all those things you said...

Please choose a better argument. I'm falling asleep.

 

[DarkMonk]

Right here

I suspect you may not get a whole lot of support for that view. Saying Christians need to be unquestioning and Jews are stupid may not go down so well.

If that's your view so be it..., I can't change your view or other Christian's view...you/they have to find it yourselves through your faith...

And I don't study the bible to get support from other Christians, I study the bible as per God's request...which leads to faith..., I don't live my life based on what the majority thing it's right..., I live my life based on what GOD says it's right or wrong.

Which leads to the exact example of Paul...
Since you want to talk about Paul, let's talk about Paul..., I'm actually quite a big admirer of Paul. 1 Guy who stood up to the Roman Empire to preach the word of GOD, was then abandoned by all his friends, and was chained day and night...

He claims he was a sinner who found the grace of God...1st letter to Timothy

Timothy1:12 And I thank him who enabled me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he counted me faithful, appointing me to service; 1:13 although I was before a blasphemer, a persecutor, and insolent. However, I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

And yet, what did he do? instead of choosing the easy way out???
He tells his Son to continue with his mission...

Timothy 2nd letter 1:8 Therefore don’t be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner; but endure hardship for the Good News according to the power of God,

So I really see eye to eye with Paul's letters...
Did Paul seek support or popularity? NO, He's job was just preach God's words. Same I'm doing here..., I preach what the bible says...
taking into mind that it was written by Hebrews for Hebrews...

And We Christians are reading it with a Greek's mentality. And so to get a more deeper understand, we have to adjust to the Hebrew Mentality.

So you go ahead, think whatever you want, as I don't expect support from non-believers..."same as Paul"

 

[Born to Watch]

I don't disagree with what you're saying..., You're right...
on the relationship part...with GOD

BUT

I completely disagree with the way you talk about God's Love...

You saying as it doesn't matter what we DO, god will always love us no matter what...and that's wrong.

God's love is by far NOT unconditional.

To the Christian the bible states clearly that His love is completely unconditional irrespective of our sin.
Once a person becomes a Christian and receives the Holly Spirit then we are His guaranteed. The Holy Spirit works within the Christian and brings us in to a closer relationship, its through God and the Spirit that we become less sinful, not ourselves.
I strongly suggest you read Ephesians and Romans

this as well
Predestination and the Love of God

 

[DarkMonk]

To the Christian the bible states clearly that His love is completely unconditional irrespective of our sin.
Once a person becomes a Christian and receives the Holly Spirit then we are His guaranteed. The Holy Spirit works within the Christian and brings us in to a closer relationship, its through God and the Spirit that we become less sinful, not ourselves.
I strongly suggest you read Ephesians and Romans

this as well
Predestination and the Love of God

I have..., where is the word "UNCONDITIONAL" in the bible????
Don't go analyzing this and that...,
I struggle to find the word Unconditional in the bible..., IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!
Don't you think that it's a pretty important word to be left you???

you said...

Once a person becomes a Christian and receives the Holly Spirit then we are His guaranteed.

That's a Condition isn't it????
becoming Christian part???

John 3:18, right after John 3:16...
puts a such big condition...

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son

If BUT is not a condition then what it is????

The unconditional love message is the biggest misinterpretation we Christians have made. We using John 3:16 as the center of the bible,
And the Gospel of John is the last of the 3 previous Gospels...

The is NO mention of Love in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark & Luke...

If you didn't know..., the gospel of John was written at about 70AD long after the other 3 were written, and was meant for Christians ONLY.

I have many references about this from Lead pastors and authors, which I can't post because I can't post links yet.

As Christians we can't go teaching the UNCONDITIONAL LOVE MESSAGE, because it's wrong...

It's almost like..., do whatever you want, go commit adultery, kill, steal, hurt, hate other people..., IT'S OK, GOD WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOU.
That's the message we're sending when we say "GOD loves you unconditionally"

It's hard to swallow, but God's Love is not unconditional.
If it was, it would be clearly stated on the bible...

All the teachings of the bible..., goes more like...

Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord

you see the words..., then, and??? They are conditional.

If you preach Unconditional Love, then there is no need for Repentance.
And that's simply wrong...

I'm Christian, and I will continue doing sinful things without any Repentance, because GOD loves me unconditionally. THAT MESSAGE IS SO SO SO WRONG!!!

 

[Born to Watch]

The word trinity doesnt exist in the bible, would you deny the Trinitys existence as well?

Also I was referring to Christians only, that text refers to everyone. A slight difference of point brother.

Also your understanding of the message is wrong in my opinion.

Let me correct what you say as I see fit.

I'm Christian, and I will continue doing sinful things because I am human, without prompthing from the Spirit I wouldn't ask for any Repentance , because GOD loves me unconditionally I have the spirit to guide my walk.

If you read Ephesians 1 you will see God chooses us, not us choosing God.

Arminianism is a Catholic works doctrine.
I thought most Baptists were now reformed, I thought most Protestants were to varying degrees.

 

[DarkMonk]

The word trinity doesnt exist in the bible, would you deny the Trinitys existence as well?

Also I was referring to Christians only, that text refers to everyone. A slight difference of point brother.

Also your understanding of the message is wrong in my opinion.

Let me correct what you say as I see fit.

I'm Christian, and I will continue doing sinful things because I am human, without prompthing from the Spirit I wouldn't ask for any Repentance , because GOD loves me unconditionally I have the spirit to guide my walk.

If you read Ephesians 1 you will see God chooses us, not us choosing God.

Arminianism is a Catholic works doctrine.
I thought most Baptists were now reformed, I thought most Protestants were to varying degrees.

I'm not denying that there is GOD, Jesus And Holy Spirit. But just denying the word Trinity.

Trinity is not in the bible, and so it's a human interpretation which we added, and like anything human, it can be corrupted, and misinterpreted.

Trinity explains that our GOD is split into 3. And that each of those 3 are different from each other. And that's wrong. God, Jesus, Holy Spirit are the same. It's one same GOD. Not 3 entities.

moving on, adding to your message above...

I'm Christian, and I will continue doing sinful things because I am human, without prompthing from the Spirit I wouldn't ask for any Repentance, On the day I became Christian, GOD loves me (not unconditionally), and so He has provided me with the Holy Spirit not just to to guide my walk but also give me the strength to stop sinning.

It's very simple...
You saying God's love is unconditional, eventhough the word unconditional is nowhere to be found in the bible.

I'm saying, there are conditions to receive God's Love.

Let me back it up with the following...

Salvation is not unconditional. The biggest condition for salvation is that you put Faith on Jesus right? no faith in Jesus, means no salvation simple.

Revelations Chapter 20:12-14
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Meaning that God will Judge Everyone eventually...

so, How can a God that loves us unconditionally, Judge us for our works?
But it's unconditional right??? how can He judge us then???

The only explanation is...

Same as Salvation, God's love is NOT unconditional.
You can't have conditions for one, and not for the other. And We all know what the conditions are for Salvation...Faith in Jesus.

And I've got no idea what Armianisms is...never heard of it before.

 

[Johnnz]

Trinity explains that our GOD is split into 3. And that each of those 3 are different from each other. And that's wrong. God, Jesus, Holy Spirit are the same. It's one same GOD. Not 3 entities.

That is a real misunderstanding of the Trinity. I suggest you got to a good Christian bookshop and do some reading by a competent teacher. You need more information than can be posted here. The Trinity is fundamental to Christian belief and it is essential we get a reasonable understanding of the teaching in support of that basic tenet of our faith.

John
NZ

 

[joey_downunder]

More importantly, though. If all Paul says is based on the words of Jesus you should have no trouble pointing us to those words in support of all those things you said...

No worries.
Ist passage:

But Saul [renamed Paul], still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
(Acts 9:1-9)

2nd passage:
For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. (Galatians 1:11-17)

This writer of many books in the New Testament got it from Jesus Christ Himself. Paul was the mere messenger. Paul and his testimony was accepted by the apostles that were with Jesus for the 3 years - so accepted that Peter accepted correction from Paul. See Galatians 2. Next.

 

[joey_downunder]

DarkMonk you need to learn about grace. God's grace alone saves us.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

The answer to people trying to excuse their breaking commandments is in Romans 6.
The answer to people trying to claim they are saved but showing no signs of change is in James 2:14-26.
True faith will RESULT in good works.

Re trinity: was taught in 2nd century, way before the Nicene Creed came along.
The Christians worship Father, Son and Holy Ghost - athenagoras

Good christian apologist's explanation of trinity:
Scripture index to the forgotten trinity
Brief definition of the trinity

 

[Bungle_Bear]

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” .

That doesn't really cut it as evidence of Jesus saying anything about "Sexual Immorality, Gay Marriage, Divorce, Marriage through GOD, Hedonism, Rationalism, Materialism, etc etc etc"

 

[joey_downunder]

It's quite simple: if A = B, B= C, C = D then A = D.

Jesus, second person in the trinity (A) = God made flesh, second person in trinity

Therefore God's words = Jesus' words (B)

Jesus spoke to Paul - Jesus's words (B) = Paul's words (C), apostles backed his words up (2 Peter 3:15-16)

Paul's words (C) = church commandments, directions, advice [unless he states it's his own opinion e.g. 1 Corinthian 7:6-8 (D)

Therefore teachings from Paul to the New Testament church commandments on morality, sexuality = commandments from Jesus/God Himself.

If that is too hard for you then people must conclude it is easy to understand for only those who want to understand. Including christians who use this strategy towards commandments that don't suit them. Little Britain Live - Vicky Pollard - Yeah but no but yeah - YouTube