1918 Was Not A Good Year for American Democracy

[Erik Nelson]

Red Summer - Wikipedia

Total nation-wide fatalities were, in fact, almost a thousand

The article quotes former President Wilson in his own original words... he used no racist terms, he rather expressed fear that others would "play the race card" and entice American blacks into support of Communism...

I would not accuse Woodrow Wilson of being "racist" based solely upon his words there as quoted, rather that he was aware that others were "racially aware" and "racially hyper-sensitive" so to speak...

as many people still are to this day...

The issue is very confused, black Americans actually supported US businesses against white labor union strikes in 1917, and again in 1919

Steel strike of 1919 - Wikipedia

Rodney King said "can't we all get along", and nobody listened...
so if I even ask "live, and let live?", then all will say "no! & Hell
no!"...

amazing what so many sign up for...

 

[A_Thinker]

The article quotes former President Wilson in his own original words... he used no racist terms, he rather expressed fear that others would "play the race card" and entice American blacks into support of Communism...

I would not accuse Woodrow Wilson of being "racist" based solely upon his words there as quoted, rather that he was aware that others were "racially aware" and "racially hyper-sensitive" so to speak

If Woodrow Wilson's WIKI article is correct, then he did harbor some rascist tendencies.

He showed this in his presidential appointments, who set back the cause of racial harmony and integration, .... and by his oblique support of the KKK, with whom it appears he sympathized.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I found this debate a learning experience for me. I tend to stir the pot about issues and probably do go over the top, but it does stir up a good range of responses which I read carefully and see a more balanced picture of things. My point about the comparisons is that no country is immune from evil. Nazi Germany had many more good people in it than bad ones, the same with communist Russia. I would also say that the normal North Korean is just like us, just wanting to earn a living and live a normal life. Propaganda stirs up lies and misconceptions about those considered as enemies. We saw that against the Japanese during WW2 where they were depicted as evil monsters, when in fact, most were ordinary people forced into a war they didn't really want, just like those in Britain and America.

It is also good to get more accurate information about the true extent of the conflict between the whites and African Americans in 1918. On reflection, a lot of the documentary concentrated on the negative situation at home and minimised the positives. But then, it depends on the bias of those who put the documentary together.

This is the strength of CF. We can bring up issues like this and learn from the different responses.

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

I agree. If people are going to accept American aid then they should have respect for the hand that feeds them.

I'm not anti American. I am anti racism and discrimination.

You will find that you can not buy love
Nor even expect it.
Few people have cause to respect the USA
Some are thankful for what everaid they recieve.
Others dont care in the least. where it comes from.
And probably don't even know.

We give aid because it is needed
Not because we get anything out of it.
Like Salvation it comes free of strings...it is a gift.

 

[Tallguy88]

I found this debate a learning experience for me. I tend to stir the pot about issues and probably do go over the top, but it does stir up a good range of responses which I read carefully and see a more balanced picture of things. My point about the comparisons is that no country is immune from evil. Nazi Germany had many more good people in it than bad ones, the same with communist Russia. I would also say that the normal North Korean is just like us, just wanting to earn a living and live a normal life. Propaganda stirs up lies and misconceptions about those considered as enemies. We saw that against the Japanese during WW2 where they were depicted as evil monsters, when in fact, most were ordinary people forced into a war they didn't really want, just like those in Britain and America.

It is also good to get more accurate information about the true extent of the conflict between the whites and African Americans in 1918. On reflection, a lot of the documentary concentrated on the negative situation at home and minimised the positives. But then, it depends on the bias of those who put the documentary together.

This is the strength of CF. We can bring up issues like this and learn from the different responses.

Re bold: That's what we Americans are used to and what we get sick of. Everything is "blame America first" and put a magnifying glass to all our sins while hand-waving all the good we've done. Balanced reporting is fine, but most of it isn't balanced.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Re bold: That's what we Americans are used to and what we get sick of. Everything is "blame America first" and put a magnifying glass to all our sins while hand-waving all the good we've done. Balanced reporting is fine, but most of it isn't balanced.

I learned at high school in my English class that most media reporting and documentary is largely based on opinion rather than fact.

 

[Liza B.]

I found this debate a learning experience for me. I tend to stir the pot about issues and probably do go over the top, but it does stir up a good range of responses which I read carefully and see a more balanced picture of things. My point about the comparisons is that no country is immune from evil. Nazi Germany had many more good people in it than bad ones, the same with communist Russia. I would also say that the normal North Korean is just like us, just wanting to earn a living and live a normal life. Propaganda stirs up lies and misconceptions about those considered as enemies. We saw that against the Japanese during WW2 where they were depicted as evil monsters, when in fact, most were ordinary people forced into a war they didn't really want, just like those in Britain and America.

It is also good to get more accurate information about the true extent of the conflict between the whites and African Americans in 1918. On reflection, a lot of the documentary concentrated on the negative situation at home and minimised the positives. But then, it depends on the bias of those who put the documentary together.

This is the strength of CF. We can bring up issues like this and learn from the different responses.

Since you say this is a learning experience, and I really do appreciate your willingness to reflect: is there any nation about which you would say, "They're just as bad as Nazi Germany" or Communist Russia or North Korea? If not, why do you feel so comfortable saying that about America? How do you think many Americans feel when they see their nation compared to Nazi Germany and North Korea?

Realize even Germany itself doesn't want to be compared to Nazi Germany--and most people won't do it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Since you say this is a learning experience, and I really do appreciate your willingness to reflect: is there any nation about which you would say, "They're just as bad as Nazi Germany" or Communist Russia or North Korea? If not, why do you feel so comfortable saying that about America? How do you think many Americans feel when they see their nation compared to Nazi Germany and North Korea?

Realize even Germany itself doesn't want to be compared to Nazi Germany--and most people won't do it.

I think I meant it as a comment about those in one country who rail at others because of the human rights abuses that go on there and seem to be blinded to what goes on in their own country. I picked on America because that was the subject of the documentary I was watching. I watched a documentary once about how the Australians treated their indigenous people, in the 1950s taking children away from their families and adopting them into to white families to try and change the indigenous culture. They called it the lost generation of Aboriginal people. I got steamed up about them as well. What is happening in Myanmar with the abuses against one ethnic group by the government, can also be compared in the same way. We can't ignore how the American government treated the North American Indians at different times in their history. It all comes from the same spirit - the stronger ethnic group having dominance over the weaker group. British and French colonialism in Africa has caused many on-going problems in that continent as well with historical abuses against the indigenous people. In a sense, that's what your War of Independence from Britain was all about - getting freedom from a colonial power that was treating Americans as second class people.

 

[Liza B.]

I think I meant it as a comment about those in one country who rail at others because of the human rights abuses that go on there and seem to be blinded to what goes on in their own country. I picked on America because that was the subject of the documentary I was watching. I watched a documentary once about how the Australians treated their indigenous people, in the 1950s taking children away from their families and adopting them into to white families to try and change the indigenous culture. They called it the lost generation of Aboriginal people. I got steamed up about them as well. What is happening in Myanmar with the abuses against one ethnic group by the government, can also be compared in the same way. We can't ignore how the American government treated the North American Indians at different times in their history. It all comes from the same spirit - the stronger ethnic group having dominance over the weaker group. British and French colonialism in Africa has caused many on-going problems in that continent as well with historical abuses against the indigenous people. In a sense, that's what your War of Independence from Britain was all about - getting freedom from a colonial power that was treating Americans as second class people.

So New Zealand is just like Nazi Germany? Because of the Maori people? Is the UK just like Nazi Germany because of India and Jamaica and so many other nations? I mean have you called other nations akin to Nazi Germany? Or is it more natural to do this to the States?

I'm asking you to face up to some biases. Maybe in the end, the only nation like Nazi Germany was Nazi Germany.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So New Zealand is just like Nazi Germany? Because of the Maori people? Is the UK just like Nazi Germany because of India and Jamaica and so many other nations? I mean have you called other nations akin to Nazi Germany? Or is it more natural to do this to the States?

I'm asking you to face up to some biases. Maybe in the end, the only nation like Nazi Germany was Nazi Germany.

Yes, I think that there were the same elements of evil in that time in NZ's history that were similar to the evil that was in that time of Germany's history. What is there different between the systematic burning down of a French village by the Nazis and massacring its inhabitants and the US Cavalry going to the Indian village at Wounded Knee and killing innocent men, women and children there? In the same way that the NZ Settler Army went to a peaceful Maori village in the Waikato region, killing men and children, and raping the women and confiscating their land? No difference at all. It is the same principle of evil that is active everywhere. It happened then, and it is happening around the world today.

 

[Liza B.]

Yes, I think that there were the same elements of evil in that time in NZ's history that were similar to the evil that was in that time of Germany's history. What is there different between the systematic burning down of a French village by the Nazis and massacring its inhabitants and the US Cavalry going to the Indian village at Wounded Knee and killing innocent men, women and children there? In the same way that the NZ Settler Army went to a peaceful Maori village in the Waikato region, killing men and children, and raping the women and confiscating their land? No difference at all. It is the same principle of evil that is active everywhere. It happened then, and it is happening around the world today.

People stealing land from one another is not particular to America, NZ, Nazi Germany or any land on the planet that has been inhabited by more than one people group. That this is often perpetuated with violence cannot be excused, but is common to history.

The added level to evil in racial genocide, however, is that people are exterminated, often on a mass scale, simply for being thought "lesser". It's not that warring people are battling or land is at stake. It's what made it possible for human beings to drive truck fulls of children into the fire, alive. Or put babies into gas chambers. Simply because they were the wrong sort of human.

 

[Favourofone]

This is the way of it generally the entire world over. Every American sin is magnified; every sin of everyone else's nation is minimized.

No, that’s not actually it. Mostly everyone can agree that every nation has their darker moments.

What really annoys people is that average American is pretty much illiterate when it comes to history, geography or people outside the USA.

Over half of the Americans don’t even have passport. Most of them don’t travel or think too critically of the facts their single watched news channel tells them.

How Many Americans Have A Passport? | TheExpeditioner Travel Site

This leads to righteousness born from ignorance that translates to overbearing vanity that most of the rest of the world sees as arrogant posturing with high moral standards which are thrown away as soon as national or even more frequently corporate assets so dictate.

And absolutely worst part is that most Americans can’t understand this no matter how you explain it.

Looking from the outside it is getting to be about as bad as what Russia and China have in place to restrict the flow of information.

They just aren’t stupid enough to call them alternate facts over there.

 

[Liza B.]

No, that’s not actually it. Mostly everyone can agree that every nation has their darker moments.

What really annoys people is that average American is pretty much illiterate when it comes to history, geography or people outside the USA.

Over half of the Americans don’t even have passport. Most of them don’t travel or think too critically of the facts their single watched news channel tells them.

How Many Americans Have A Passport? | TheExpeditioner Travel Site

This leads to righteousness born from ignorance that translates to overbearing vanity that most of the rest of the world sees as arrogant posturing with high moral standards which are thrown away as soon as national or even more frequently corporate assets so dictate.

And absolutely worst part is that most Americans can’t understand this no matter how you explain it.

Looking from the outside it is getting to be about as bad as what Russia and China have in place to restrict the flow of information.

They just aren’t stupid enough to call them alternate facts over there.

And to that I can't even speak. We are obviously not allies, and many Americans realize this now.

Good luck with Russia. I hope that Swedish army is up to snuff.

 

[Liza B.]

No, that’s not actually it. Mostly everyone can agree that every nation has their darker moments.

What really annoys people is that average American is pretty much illiterate when it comes to history, geography or people outside the USA.

Over half of the Americans don’t even have passport. Most of them don’t travel or think too critically of the facts their single watched news channel tells them.

How Many Americans Have A Passport? | TheExpeditioner Travel Site

This leads to righteousness born from ignorance that translates to overbearing vanity that most of the rest of the world sees as arrogant posturing with high moral standards which are thrown away as soon as national or even more frequently corporate assets so dictate.

And absolutely worst part is that most Americans can’t understand this no matter how you explain it.

Looking from the outside it is getting to be about as bad as what Russia and China have in place to restrict the flow of information.

They just aren’t stupid enough to call them alternate facts over there.

I would also like to put forward that, in your European short-sightedness, you have not even considered that many US states are bigger than your European nations. But you're happy to judge us as basically stupid and backward based on the fact we don't have passports, when my own state is larger than many, many nations in your continent.

But, again, whatever. This has been the way of it for decades now, and when confronted, Europeans just blame America more. That's fine. Americans are responding. The alliances are very much cooled as a result. I think it's sad, actually, but there it is.

 

[A_Thinker]

What really annoys people is that average American is pretty much illiterate when it comes to history, geography or people outside the USA.

Over half of the Americans don’t even have passport. Most of them don’t travel or think too critically of the facts their single watched news channel tells them.

Lisa B. and I don't agree on much in these forums, but I agree, in part, to her response to this.

What, exactly, of the world, do you think that Americans should be especially cognizant ? That Europeans have, twice, been embroiled in devastating wars on their own continent within the last century ? That millions have been killed in the USSR, and China, and other communist countries ?

We've watched as the USSR came apart following the demise of the Berlin Wall. We've watched the repartitioning of national borders in the Balkans. And we're watching the attempts of Europeans to form and sustain their own union.

In the meantime, Americans have partnered with Europeans, and other willing nations, in pursuing peace in various parts of the globe. We've, largely, been cooperative in efforts to control global warming and in extending aid and assistance to various nations around the world.

And, yes, we struggle with our own problems at home. With one of the most diverse populations of an nation on the planet, we face rather unique challenges, but we've been making progress. And even though every election cycle may change our response and participation in some areas, ... we, generally, have remained a consistent and reliable partner to reasonable world governments over the long haul.

It strikes me that ignorance of world affairs must be a two-way street. There are some, from overseas, who, apparently, view America and Americans through a narrow preconceived lens, and not without a hint of envy.

My point is this ... America has proven itself to be a trusted partner in the pursuit of the nobler aspirations in global matters. Has she been perfect, or, OTOH, displayed less commitment to world progress than any other nation ?

Not particularly, I think ...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Lisa B. and I don't agree on much in these forums, but I agree, in part, to her response to this.

What, exactly, of the world, do you think that Americans should be especially cognizant ? That Europeans have, twice, been embroiled in devastating wars on their own continent within the last century ? That millions have been killed in the USSR, and China, and other communist countries ?

We've watched as the USSR came apart following the demise of the Berlin Wall. We've watched the repartitioning of national borders in the Balkans. And we're watching the attempts of Europeans to form and sustain their own union.

In the meantime, Americans have partnered with Europeans, and other willing nations, in pursuing peace in various parts of the globe. We've, largely, been cooperative in efforts to control global warming and in extending aid and assistance to various nations around the world.

And, yes, we struggle with our own problems at home. With one of the most diverse populations of an nation on the planet, we face rather unique challenges, but we've been making progress. And even though every election cycle may change our response and participation in some areas, ... we, generally, have remained a consistent and reliable partner to reasonable world governments over the long haul.

It strikes me that ignorance of world affairs must be a two-way street. There are some, from overseas, who, apparently, view America and Americans through a narrow preconceived lens, and not without a hint of envy.

My point is this ... America has proven itself to be a trusted partner in the pursuit of the nobler aspirations in global matters. Has she been perfect, or, OTOH, displayed less commitment to world progress than any other nation ?

Not particularly, I think ...

The relatives of the Mi Lai massacre in Vietnam may not agree with you.

 

[Zoii]

Really. So comparing these incidents, which are awful, it's true, to Nazi Germany and Russian Communism is a fair comparison?

Wow. Okay.

Look i think its a shame you took it that way and especially as an attack on your nation. The OP from New Zealand raised a good issue. The fact is my country of Australia, and your nation of USA did behave towards idigenous and African Americans just as was stated.. Your point is fair that no you weren't Nazis and didnt create a holocaust, but I think the OP was really putting an uncomfortable spotlight on nations who behaved this way towards a cohort of its own soldiers. In that regard my country of Australia, and yours of USA were shameful and history has shown that we can behave better.

I admire New Zealands history. They honour and value their indigenous culture like none other Ive seen in a developed nation and they did so during world wars. My father showed me a photo of the New Zealanders, both Maori and caucasian, doing a Haka on the sands of El Alamein prior to battle.

Please try not to be offended for your nation but rather accept the uncomfortable spotlight on things we dont want to repeat

 

[A_Thinker]

The relatives of the Mi Lai massacre in Vietnam may not agree with you.

Nowhere in my response did I indicate that American exploits were always good.

I do believe, however, that America matches any other nation in its commitment to a better world ...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Nowhere in my response did I indicate that American exploits were always good.

I do believe, however, that America matches any other nation in its commitment to a better world ...

I have no doubt about that. America's influence has enriched many with its ideals and regardless of blips in its history, it still stands as a great example of what can be achieved by a nation that values liberty of its people. I am not contradicting myself here. It is just that I went to one end of the balance with my OP by dealing with a negative phase of its history. The ongoing discussion has caused me to be reminded that almost every western nation has had dark periods of its history. It's a pity that the news media tends to concentrate on the negative and does not always highlight the many positives.

 

[Favourofone]

I do believe, however, that America matches any other nation in its commitment to a better world ...

Like denying climate change while being the biggest consumer of worlds resources and second largest CO2 producer?