1000 years in heaven.

ewq1938 · Dec 11, 2018

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:
These are those in graves not part of the first.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Yes everyone understands the second group of the dead are not part of the first resurrection.

These are those alive, not part of the first.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The living have no need of resurrection.

It seems you do not understand my position brother.

I understand it which is why I can offer corrections.

There is no rapture, that is a man made event(as it cannot be proven from scripture).

Yes there is a rapture. To say otherwise means you are severely lacking in proper biblical hermeneutics.

Because you are lacking this I think it's best to leave our discussions as they are and not keep going in circles.

I love you brother.

I love you as well. Take care.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Dec 11, 2018

ewq1938 said:
The living do not go to heaven.

According to Paul there is a rapture since he is the only one to use the actual word rapture, in the Greek language.

That's false. The only two mass resurrections are ALL THE DEAD IN CHRIST, not only some. And the only other are ALL THE UNSAVED a thousand years later.

So what happens to them then brother?

Which Greek word and verse is that brother?

If it's false you have prove with strong doctrine(not just one or two verses taken out of context) sparing nothing as we are called to do.
1 Thess 5:21
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
2 timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
2 timothy 4:1-2, 5
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

ewq1938 · Dec 11, 2018

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:
Which Greek word and verse is that brother?

The word Rapture is actually very much in the bible and thus is quite biblical. One must merely do a little bit of studying in the original languages to understand that.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin verb rapio meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin Vulgate translates the Greek as rapiemur. In Middle French "rapiemur" is "rapture" meaning ("to carry away") which is the same meaning as Rapture in English. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Dec 11, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Yes everyone understands the second group of the dead are not part of the first resurrection.

The living have no need of resurrection.

I understand it which is why I can offer corrections.

Yes there is a rapture. To say otherwise means you are severely lacking in proper biblical hermeneutics.

Because you are lacking this I think it's best to leave our discussions as they are and not keep going in circles.

I love you as well. Take care.

If you understood my position brother you would not have said I believe the living exist in the grave.

I am lacking in many areas brother, but there is no part of the bible that says we will be raptured. That is a man made idea.

I agree brother. There is no fruit to be gained from this discussion.

May God Guide you to the truth and light of his word.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Dec 11, 2018

ewq1938 said:
The word Rapture is actually very much in the bible and thus is quite biblical. One must merely do a little bit of studying in the original languages to understand that.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin verb rapio meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin Vulgate translates the Greek as rapiemur. In Middle French "rapiemur" is "rapture" meaning ("to carry away") which is the same meaning as Rapture in English. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead.

This is the greek definition.

catch, seize, take by force.

From a derivative of haireomai; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

The definition does not say rapture. And looking at it in context we see it is the same event as revelation 20:9

God bless you brother.

BobRyan · Dec 11, 2018

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:
How do you expect them to get to heaven then? There is no such thing as a rapture, and there are only two resurrections spoken of in the bible. One for the righteous dead and one for everyone else, all being transformed.

The rapture happens at the 2nd coming -- which is where Jesus raises the dead in Christ and takes all the saints to heaven as HE promised in John 14:1-3

BobRyan · Dec 11, 2018

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:
This is the greek definition.

catch, seize, take by force.

From a derivative of haireomai; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

The definition does not say rapture. And looking at it in context we see it is the same event as revelation 20:9

God bless you brother.

It is the same event - as you say - and it is the power of God literally taking both the living and the dead saints - to heaven at the 2nd coming

BobRyan · Dec 11, 2018

ewq1938 said:
And the day means one day and the 1000 years means 1000 years so those that try to use this to suggest the thousand years is much more than 1000 years are misusing this example.

Indeed it does not say "a thousand years with God is 2000 years for man"

BobRyan · Dec 11, 2018

ewq1938 said:
The only two mass resurrections are ALL THE DEAD IN CHRIST, not only some. And the only other are ALL THE UNSAVED a thousand years later.

True.

Just two resurrections.

The first one being at the 2nd coming - 1 Thess 4, and Rev 20 both point to it
The second one being exactly 1000 years later.

BobRyan · Dec 11, 2018

JazzHands said:
I don't understand why any of this is especially significant? Dead, alive, righteous, unrighteous.. is the end goal not always the same.. to reach heaven? In due course, I DO believe that all will be reconciled as the last judgement alludes to but who cares who, what, when or why it happens? We are all of us searching for that path and all of us feel confident that we are on it.... let time decide... if some of us were wrong, let God continue our Hogwarts training and help us to better understand where we went wrong! It's that simple

Interesting that "differences have no consequences" idea brings in "Hogwarts". I find that interesting at least.

But as it turns out - "differences do have consequences".

1. The Jews expected the Messiah to come in a certain fashion - at the time of Christ.
2. But the Bible described a very different sort of event to take place with the Messiah's coming.

There were differences.
Those differences had consequences.

Jews that were tied to their traditions over a careful reading of the scriptures - rejected Christ because He did not have the same mission and message/agenda as they had predicted. They were "looking left" when they should have been "looking right".

In the same way we have two basic options on this thread despite all the differences.

1. Option-1 - the saints are all in heaven during the millennium and on Earth there is only desolation "I looked and behold - there was no man". As we see in the OP

2. Option 2 - all the saints are on Earth during the Millennium and so is Christ and a few unsaved people as well.

2Thess 2 and Rev 13 and Rev 16 and Rev 19 all tell us that Satan will be unleashed upon mankind just before the 2nd coming. His plan is pretty obvious and devastating if option - 1 is correct because in that case - his plan "is already working".

JazzHands · Dec 11, 2018

BobRyan said:
Interesting that "differences have no consequences" idea brings in "Hogwarts". I find that interesting at least.

But as it turns out - "differences do have consequences".

1. The Jews expected the Messiah to come in a certain fashion - at the time of Christ.
2. But the Bible described a very different sort of event to take place with the Messiah's coming.

There were differences.
Those differences had consequences.

Jews that were tied to their traditions over a careful reading of the scriptures - rejected Christ because He did not have the same mission and message/agenda as they had predicted. They were "looking left" when they should have been "looking right".

In the same way we have two basic options on this thread despite all the differences.

1. Option-1 - the saints are all in heaven during the millennium and on Earth there is only desolation "I looked and behold - there was no man". As we see in the OP

2. Option 2 - all the saints are on Earth during the Millennium and so is Christ and a few unsaved people as well.

2Thess 2 and Rev 13 and Rev 16 and Rev 19 all tell us that Satan will be unleashed upon mankind just before the 2nd coming. His plan is pretty obvious and devastating if option - 1 is correct because in that case - his plan "is already working".

Most inspiring thing I've read this year! Thank you Bob! ..and GBU

BobRyan · Dec 11, 2018

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:
Yes I have, I thank you for bringing that up. Here are the verses that go with that one.
Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Cor 15:23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

You might have missed them the first time around brother.

A summary if you please because I don't see the issue there. I could have put it in the OP but not sure what it adds since they all point to a resurrection of the just and then another of the unjust. Where the saints "rise first" at the "first resurrection" -- Rev 19-20 -- at the second coming of Christ.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Dec 11, 2018

BobRyan said:
The rapture happens at the 2nd coming -- which is where Jesus raises the dead in Christ and takes all the saints to heaven as HE promised in John 14:1-3

That is what he promised(taking all the saints to heaven) but the earth and heavens are destroyed at his 2nd coming(nothing remaining).
(Matthew 24:29-31; Micah 1:3-4; Isaiah 66:15-17; 26:21; 2:19-21; Zephaniah 1:2-3,14-15,18; 2:2-3; 3:8; Haggai 2:6-7; Malachi 4:1; Joel 2:10-11,31; Hosea 10:8; 2 Thess 1:7-9; 1 Thess 4:16; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9).

If the 'rapture' takes place at the time of Christ's return nothing would remain of this current world. So there would be no place for Satan to be loosed.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Also if this were the order of events there would have to be two returns of Christ. But only one is spoken of.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeingthen that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Dec 11, 2018

BobRyan said:
A summary if you please because I don't see the issue there. I could have put it in the OP but not sure what it adds since they all point to a resurrection of the just and then another of the unjust. Where the saints "rise first" at the "first resurrection" -- Rev 19-20 -- at the second coming of Christ.

The dead in Christ(those killed for his testimony) rise in the First resurrection.(As shown in those verses)
Everyone else is raised in the second resurrection.(as shown by many of the other verses I have quoted on this thread).

That's about as simple a summary as I can get it.

BobRyan · Dec 11, 2018

JazzHands said:
Most inspiring thing I've read this year! Thank you Bob! ..and GBU

That is the highest rating I have seen so far... and given that this is the case I am going to "fold that post" into the second post of mine on page one of this thread.

JazzHands · Dec 11, 2018

BobRyan said:
That is the highest rating I have seen so far... and given that this is the case I am going to "fold that post" into the second post of mine on page one of this thread.

lol... you're a modest man Bob! ..and thank you for inspiring me.. that's why I come here.. to learn!

BobRyan · Dec 11, 2018

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:
That is what he promised(taking all the saints to heaven) but the earth and heavens are destroyed at his 2nd coming(nothing remaining).
(Matthew 24:29-31; Micah 1:3-4; Isaiah 66:15-17; 26:2; 2:19; Zephaniah 1:2-3,18; 2:2; 3:8; Haggai 2:6-7; Malachi 4:1; Joel 2:10-11,31; Hosea 10:8; 2 Thess 1:7-9; 1 Thess 4:16; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9).

2 Peter 3 says the "Earth was destroyed" at the flood.
5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water

2 Peter 3 combines the 2nd coming and the Millennium and the Lake of Fire event into one thing - collapses it all into "the day of the Lord" - referring to that entire 1000 year span... as a day. (And is where we see "A thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years")

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming?...
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

BobRyan · Dec 11, 2018

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:
The dead in Christ(those killed for his testimony) rise in the First resurrection.(As shown in those verses)
Everyone else is raised in the second resurrection.(as shown by many of the other verses I have quoted on this thread).

That's about as simple a summary as I can get it.

Certainly I agree with that - but the term "Dead in Christ" is not limited to just saints that were killed when read in context.

In 1 Thess 4 we find the term "the dead in Christ" which is about all the dead in Christ at the first resurrection - but the funeral being had in 1Thess 4 is never said to be for one who was killed for their faith. They simply died as in fact all the living of that day 2000 years ago were eventually going to die.

In that respect all the saints in all ages give their life for Christ -- choosing to live for Christ and reject the world.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Dec 11, 2018

BobRyan said:
2 Peter 3 says the "Earth was destroyed" at the flood.

2 Peter 3 combines the 2nd coming and the Millennium and the Lake of Fire event into one thing - collapses it all into "the day of the Lord" - referring to that entire 1000 year span... as a day.

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming?...
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Did you read through all the passages brother? I'm getting the impression that you did not(I mean no offense).

From reading all those passages we see that the coming of the lord is referring to the literal coming/day of the Lord, and is not condensing several events into one.

BobRyan · Dec 11, 2018

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:
If the 'rapture' takes place at the time of Christ's return nothing would remain of this current world. So there would be no place for Satan to be loosed.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The world is in ruins at the 2nd coming - but the rocks (planet) still exist .. just as Peter said the world was "destroyed by the flood" in 2Peter 3 -- but this does not mean the planet did not exist

1000 years in heaven.

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