1000 Students in Quarantine After One Week in School

[RaymondG]

Which would be expected if more people were getting vaccinated. Think about it. If 1% of vaccinated people still get sick enough to be hospitalized, and 100 of them are vaccinated, you'd expect 1 person.

But if a thousand were vaccinated, would you expect an uptick in hospitalizations?

Yep. And...
CDC data shows 35% increase in number of initial vaccinations
https://www.wptv.com/coronavirus/as-covid-19-cases-surge-more-people-getting-first-doses-of-vaccine

Yes but this is similar to the number of hospitalization and deaths among unvaccinated people. About 1% of unvaccinated people who get the virus die.

This is not a good case for forced injections.

 

[Isilwen]

But I also understand those who do not trust this process and/or desire to lean on the everlasting protection of God over the 6 month 90% protection of man.

The problem with that comment, that Christians are dying from this virus as well.

 

[RaymondG]

What —the FDA gets to tell us what we must do, now? I thought Fauci was in charge of that!

The more people/entities you have that can place fear in people.....the easier it is to make those same people go along with whatever remedy is suggested.

But I believe we had this coming.....I've been saying for decades to follow this and that step....believe this and that, or you will burn in hell. It is only right that the same fear is placed in me to do what others believe is right.

 

[RaymondG]

The problem with that comment, that Christians are dying from this virus as well.

The problem with your comment is that I never said anything about Christians or any other religion.... I only spoke about trusting in God.

Unless you are saying that you believe 100% of Christians trust in God, do what God says and will make it to heaven. If you do not believe this.....it proves that you are just making up things to have any argument.

 

[RaymondG]

You have to get an annual booster for the flu shot as well.

False. I havent gotten a flu shot in more than 5 years.......and havent been sick since. All while those who get the shot are still getting the flu and crediting the vaccine for reducing their symptoms and the amount of time they are sick.

But at least they never blamed me for causing others to get sick. No one ever told me I didnt love a neighbor, either, because I didnt get the shot.

I find no fault in trusting in vaccines......Try to find it in your heart to understand and respect the few who trust only in God as well.

 

[Isilwen]

I find no fault in trusting in vaccines......Try to find it in your heart to understand and respect the few who trust only in God as well.

Appealing to me the way you did will not work, because you really haven't a clue about me. You do not know what I really understand and don't understand based on limited interaction here on these forums.

So, I would kindly ask that you stop making assumptions about me, especially assumptions that are blatantly false.

I also find no fault in those that trust in God, all I am saying is that Christians (we are on a Christian board, so I will keep it to Christians only) are dying as well. So, I want to point that out.

 

[RaymondG]

Appealing to me the way you did will not work, because you really haven't a clue about me. You do not know what I really understand and don't understand based on limited interaction here on these forums.

So, I would kindly ask that you stop making assumptions about me, especially assumptions that are blatantly false.

I also find no fault in those that trust in God, all I am saying is that Christians (we are on a Christian board, so I will keep it to Christians only) are dying as well. So, I want to point that out.

While you point that out, dont forget to mention that Vaccinated Christians are dying from covid. And I know of Christians who have died from complications from the Vaccine a day after getting it.

Yet I dont use these FACTS as a reason to exclaim that no Christian should get the vaccine....no, that is not an honest thing to do.....as deaths from vaccines and death after vaccines are to be expected.

So, you see, there is really no reason to bring up the religion of people that are dying.....especially if your are only going to be talking about it one sided.

Lets try to stay on the topic an leave out the subconscious mind swaying tactics.

 

[Isilwen]

While you point that out, dont forget to mention that Vaccinated Christians are dying from covid. And I know of Christians who have died from complications from the Vaccine a day after getting it.

I never denied that. No vaccine is 100% effective, but 95% effective is better than 0% effective.

Yet I dont use these FACTS as a reason to exclaim that no Christian should get the vaccine.

See above.

So, you see, there is really no reason to bring up the religion of people are are dying.....especially if your are only going to talking about it one sided.

Is this not a Christian forum, with Christians? I realize that there are other religions on here, such as Islam, Buddhists, etc, but this is a Christian forum and I am speaking to Christians.

Let try to stay on the topic an leave out the subconscious mind swaying tactics.

I will, if you will.

 

[RaymondG]

I never denied that. No vaccine is 100% effective, but 95% effective is better than 0% effective.

Yes, 95% is much better than 0% and this is why I would never speak against it. However, I know of a method, if you could believe it, that is 100% effective.... I desire to share it with those that would listen....and this method does not require that you are vaccinated or unvaccinated....for, as you pointed out....Christians on both side of the vax isles are dying.

Is this not a Christian forum, with Christians? I realize that there are other religions on here, such as Islam, Buddhists, etc, but this is a Christian forum and I am speaking to Christians.

Let us not forget why you mentioned Christians are dying.....It was a rebuttal against my statement of trusting in God....you didnt use it because this is a Christian forum.

But if you have forgotten your motives, I will forget them too. Lets move on.

 

[RaymondG]

And it just continues to get better: Pres Biden is set to require all nursing homes to mandate employee vaccinations or lose government funding....

 

[Halbhh]

I suppose you mean, at ten times the rate of death for the same period of time at first? Or do you actually mean, we would have had 10 times the deaths overall for the few years we will have to deal with this?

The latter, and here's why: If we'd had the very different situation where there were no lockdowns or distancing or any other measures, and the entire population got infected all in just 1 month, and 2-3% of those infected need some oxygen -- 5-10 million patients had needed oxygen in the U.S. all at once -- then even the United States would not have been able to give them all oxygen.

We'd have been able to help only a small fraction, because we don't have that ability to treat so many at once in hospitals even with all beds and all hands on deck.

Total hospital beds of all kinds in the U.S. number about a million normally. Maybe we could have surged to treat 2 million at once (maybe!), but not 10 million at once.... See?

 

[loveofourlord]

And it just continues to get better: Pres Biden is set to require all nursing homes to mandate employee vaccinations or lose government funding....

ummm yeah, that's a no brainer. Unless the same crows that attacked Cumo and such over sending covid patients to nursing homes are now against vaccinating to protect them.

 

[The Barbarian]

Yes but this is similar to the number of hospitalization and deaths among unvaccinated people.

It was just a number I tossed out as an example, to show you why, if more people are vaccinated, then there will be more vaccinated people being infected.

But of course, almost all hospitalized or dying COVID-19 patients are unvaccinated:
95% of COVID-19 deaths since March were in unvaccinated Wisconsinites
The Wisconsin Department of Health Services reported that 95% of people who died from COVID-19 complications since March were not fully vaccinated.

And 99% of those hospitalized this year with COVID-19 were unvaccinated.

"The vast majority of people who we are seeing in our hospitals, and who are dying of COVID-related complications are unvaccinated unfortunately," said Dr. Joyce Sanchez of Froedtert Hospital and the Medical College of Wisconsin.

The state reported that 21 of the 433 COVID-19 deaths since March, or 5%, were breakthrough cases, meaning people who were fully vaccinated.

Officials said most of those cases were people with immune deficiencies or other underlying health concerns.
95% of COVID-19 deaths since March were in unvaccinated Wisconsinites

52% of Wisconsinites have been vaccinated.
95% of COVID-19 deaths since March were in unvaccinated Wisconsinites

So then unvaccinated people a bit less than 20 times more likely to die of COVID-19 than vaccinated people. Who'd be dumb enough to ignore odds like that?

This is not a good case for forced injections.

No one should be forced to take one. However, employers, schools, and businesses have the right to insist that unvaccinated people not endanger their employees, students, and customers.

As long as you don't endanger others, you can do whatever you want.

 

[RaymondG]

And it just continues to get better: Pres Biden is set to require all nursing homes to mandate employee vaccinations or lose government funding....

And it's official... You must end your career as a nursing house aide/worker, or get injected. No federal funding for nursing homes that do not force workers to inject.

 

[RaymondG]

It was just a number I tossed out as an example, to show you why, if more people are vaccinated, then there will be more vaccinated people being infected.

But of course, almost all hospitalized or dying COVID-19 patients are unvaccinated:
95% of COVID-19 deaths since March were in unvaccinated Wisconsinites
The Wisconsin Department of Health Services reported that 95% of people who died from COVID-19 complications since March were not fully vaccinated.

And 99% of those hospitalized this year with COVID-19 were unvaccinated.

"The vast majority of people who we are seeing in our hospitals, and who are dying of COVID-related complications are unvaccinated unfortunately," said Dr. Joyce Sanchez of Froedtert Hospital and the Medical College of Wisconsin.

The state reported that 21 of the 433 COVID-19 deaths since March, or 5%, were breakthrough cases, meaning people who were fully vaccinated.

Officials said most of those cases were people with immune deficiencies or other underlying health concerns.
95% of COVID-19 deaths since March were in unvaccinated Wisconsinites

52% of Wisconsinites have been vaccinated.
95% of COVID-19 deaths since March were in unvaccinated Wisconsinites

So then unvaccinated people a bit less than 20 times more likely to die of COVID-19 than vaccinated people. Who'd be dumb enough to ignore odds like that?

No one should be forced to take one. However, employers, schools, and businesses have the right to insist that unvaccinated people not endanger their employees, students, and customers.

As long as you don't endanger others, you can do whatever you want.

You are manipulating numbers to agree with your side. You just told me before that, of course the numbers of vaccinated people who are getting hospitalizes and dying are going up because the number of people getting the vaccine is going up.

Yet you would never say , "of course There is a greater number of people dying that arent vaccinated because the pool of unvaccinated people is much larger than the pools of those that are."

And why? because it would not help the agenda you are pushing.

We need objective people fighting for or against vaccinations.......not those that hide truth is it hurts their arguments.

 

[The Barbarian]

You are manipulating numbers to agree with your side.

No, I'm just showing you the facts. Wisconsin happens to have data on this, and as you see, unvaccinated people are just under twenty times more likely to die of COVID-19 than are vaccinated people.

You just told me before that, of course the numbers of vaccinated people who are getting hospitalizes and dying are going up because the number of people getting the vaccine is going up.

Yes. As you see, even if a tiny fraction of vaccinated people are hospitalized or die, the more people who become vaccinated the more people that tiny fraction will represent. I don't see how that's a difficult concept.

Yet you would never say , "of course There is a greater number of people dying that arent vaccinated because the pool of unvaccinated people is much larger than the pools of those that are."

No, I wouldn't. In Wisconsin, for example, just over half of the state is vaccinated.

And why?

I wouldn't say that, because, as you see, it's not true.

We need objective people fighting for or against vaccinations.

If you want to be that, first you're going to have to reconcile yourself to the facts. Instead of trying to hide these numbers, you should show us a reasonable interpretation of what they mean.

 

[The Barbarian]

And it's official... You must end your career as a nursing house aide/worker, or get injected. No federal funding for nursing homes that do not force workers to inject.

In previous generations, health care workers were required to have smallpox vaccinations,for example. The Supreme Court affirmed these requirements to be Constitutional:

The power of the government to mandate vaccination has long been recognized by the Supreme Court. In the landmark 1905 case of Jacobson v. Massachusetts, the Court upheld an ordinance in Cambridge, Massachusetts, that required all adult citizens to be vaccinated against smallpox in the wake of an epidemic.11 The court found that notwithstanding the Constitution’s guarantee of liberty, every person may be subject to “manifold restraints” when needed “for the public good.” This broad ruling gives health care workers limited legal ground to object.
Pharmacy and Therapeutics 2009 Nov; 34(11): 615-616, 618.
Mandatory Vaccination of Health Care Workers

 

[LeafByNiggle]

You are manipulating numbers to agree with your side. You just told me before that, of course the numbers of vaccinated people who are getting hospitalizes and dying are going up because the number of people getting the vaccine is going up.

Yet you would never say , "of course There is a greater number of people dying that aren't vaccinated because the pool of unvaccinated people is much larger than the pools of those that are."

It depends on quantitative comparisons. Let's look that it mathematically. Suppose the chance of dying unvaccinated is p and the chance of dying vaccinated is q. The null hypothesis would say that p=q. That is, the probability of dying is the same whether you get the vaccine or not. The positive hypothesis is that q<<p, that is taking the vaccine vastly lowers your probability of dying. For example, if one claims the Pfizer vaccine is 95% effective, that means 95% of the times where someone would have gotten infected and died, he will not get infected or die. That can be expressed as q=p×0.05.

Now suppose that r is the fraction of people who are still unvaccinated and s is the fraction of people who are vaccinated. Then r+s=1.

Now let's bring in the statistic you mentioned - the fraction of deaths that are of the vaccinated. Let's call that v and the fraction of deaths that are unvaccinated we will call u. Therefore u+v=1. Suppose d is the probability of dying of covid, regardless of whether you are vaccinated or not. So what can we do with these values? In terms of what we have already defined, we have:

p = (u×d)/r (definition of conditional probability)
q = (v×d)/s (definition of conditional probability)

q/p is some number that expresses whether or not this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated. If that number is 1 or close to it, it is not. If that number is much smaller than 1 (like 0.05), it is. We can calculate q/p from the values of u, v, r, and s, which are all available to you. (The value of d cancels out so you don't need to know it to do the calculation. So just calculate (v/s)/(u/r) and see what you get. From the article quoted by The Barbarian, we see that for Wisconsin,

r=0.48
s=0.52
u=0.95
v=0.05

I leave the calculation as an exercise for the reader. (It takes 15 seconds with a calculator.)

[edited: to clarify the mathematics]

 

[RaymondG]

In previous generations, health care workers were required to have smallpox vaccinations,for example. The Supreme Court affirmed these requirements to be Constitutional:

The power of the government to mandate vaccination has long been recognized by the Supreme Court. In the landmark 1905 case of Jacobson v. Massachusetts, the Court upheld an ordinance in Cambridge, Massachusetts, that required all adult citizens to be vaccinated against smallpox in the wake of an epidemic.11 The court found that notwithstanding the Constitution’s guarantee of liberty, every person may be subject to “manifold restraints” when needed “for the public good.” This broad ruling gives health care workers limited legal ground to object.
Pharmacy and Therapeutics 2009 Nov; 34(11): 615-616, 618.
Mandatory Vaccination of Health Care Workers

yes, I believe they are already require to get the flu shot as well..... The only difference here is that this vaccine has not been vetted or FDA approved....and it is still being mandated.. I think the pfizer vaccine is a close to an approval though.......The other two havent even submitted documentation for an approval.

 

[RaymondG]

It depends on quantitative comparisons. Let's look that it mathematically. Suppose the chance of dying unvaccinated is p and the chance of dying vaccinated is q. The null hypothesis would say that p=q. That is, the probability of dying is the same whether you get the vaccine or not. The positive hypothesis is that p<<q, that is taking the vaccine vastly lowers you probability of dying. For example, if one claims the Pfizer vaccine is 95% effective, that means 95% of the times where someone would have gotten infected and died, he will not get infected or die. That can be expressed as p=q×0.05.

Now suppose that r is the fraction of people who are still unvaccinated and s is the fraction of people who are vaccinated. Then r+s=1.

Now let's bring in the statistic you mentioned - the fraction of deaths that are of the vaccinated. Let's call that v and the fraction of deaths that are unvaccinated we will call u. Therefore u+v=1. Supposedly you know these values, right? So what can we do with them? In terms of what we have already defined, we have:

p = (u×d)/r (definition of conditional probability)
q = (v×d)/s (definition of conditional probability)

p/q is some number that expresses whether or not this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated. If that number is 1 or close to it, it is not. If that number is much smaller than 1 (like 0.05), it is. We can calculate p/q from the values of u, v, r, and s, which are all available to you. (The value of d cancels out so you don't need to know it to do the calculation. So just calculate (u/r)/(v/s) and see what you get. From the article quoted by The Barbarian, we see that for Wisconsin,

r=0.48
s=0.52
u=0.95
v=0.05

I leave the calculation as an exercise for the reader. (It takes 15 seconds with a calculator.)

I much prefer equations over one sided numbers......However, you used the one sided example of a non-objective poster.

Why use a state that happens to has a higher vaccination percentage but with a total population that is less than half that of any major city? Not a good example.....actually it is a great example for those that want to force injections......but not so much for those who just want truth no matter which side it falls on.

Another thing you must consider are the unknown risks of getting an injection that has not been properly vetted and has not gone through approvals like most vaccines before it.

I dont think most people are against it "just because." It seems that many are fearful of the nature in which this vaccine was rush out and the pressure given to shut up, close your eyes and just take it!

I believe there would be very little hesitation to take a tried and approved vaccine.

So...

you must, somehow, factor in the long term, unknown, risk of taking this vaccine. You may live through the virus now.....but will it affect some organ later? will you get cancer in 15 years?

We've all seen the commercials: "Have you or a loved one taken Vaxiphil in the pass seven years and mysteriously died? If so, you may be entitled to a substantial financial settlement!"

When human trials of Vaccines are started, subjects are paid....told the risks and sign waivers......but it is their decision.....not something forced.

So we have the risk of dying without vax which we know is around 1-2% Now we have to look at the risk of dying while vaxxed....and couple that with the risk of complications from the vax immediately or years down the road.

Some people feel that avoiding a 1% chance of death, is not worth the unknown risk of taking this vaccine...... And I can understand this. Can you?