100% going to heaven vs sometimes doubtful of it. Who is the correct person?

[GodsGrace101]

Yet this hope is not for an after death experience....for Jesus stated:

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Therefore I exclaim:

"26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:"

So is it right to seek for an experience after dying.....when there is no repentance in the grave?

Not sure. But I think it best to seek until we find.

I don't understand you very well.
What is an experience after dying?
There IS no repentance in the grave; we will have our destiny determined (by our obedience) by then.

 

[RaymondG]

I don't understand you very well.
What is an experience after dying?
There IS no repentance in the grave; we will have our destiny determined (by our obedience) by then.

These are things, not easily understood. Thanks for the conversation.

 

[Anthony2019]

Will there be an opportunity for repentance after death? I agree with Raymond that we cannot fully know the mind of God and certainly cannot put limits on his love and mercy. I would like to think he would and indeed He is far more loving and merciful than our minds can comprehend.

However, whether God would grant someone another chance to repent is pure speculation on our part since it is not a teaching supported by scripture. The Bible is emphatic that we shall die once and face judgement.

 

[Blade]

the part "go away I dont know you" is not us. See when Christ comes sets foot on the earth He gathers the nations and those are the sheep and goats. But some seem to think they will still be here. Lets run with that one. Now we know Jesus cant lie. Right now.. when you confess Jesus as lord.. HE KNOWS YOU! He told the Father about you.. and ALL HEAVEN knows you.

Yet to some that SOUND they did things for Him. His words "I never knew you". He said NEVER! Christ is not man. He said NEVER. That means they were never saved. They NEVER repented.. and ran this race.

And this is something we get no say in. No matter what ANYONE says here. We dont know the heart. That is what the Father looks at. Not this flesh. If your doubting or someone is.. as if you can only say john 3 16 ones.. just repent get up dust off and keep going

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

Who is more correct in their view?
A. A person who knows without a doubt they are 100% going to heaven.
B. A person who sometimes has doubts about it?

May seem like an obvious answer of A is the right choice as they are sure they know where they are going. But the bible does say many will stand before Him and He will say "Go away, I do not know you." This is why I feel person B is more correct. Many people sometimes have doubts or worries. It's normal.

But often I find people A to be "holier than thou", judgemental, self-righteous...etc. The kind of people that the bible says often are knocked down from their perch of being so sure of themselves. They often say they never screw up, brag about their works and how perfect they are in Christ. Never show humility...etc. Like "Well I have never done <insert sin>, you must not believe enough if you have issue sometimes!".

Admiteddly whatever the case I don't even know, only God does. But I'd rather sometimes question myself than pretend I am perfect. I never even pretend to be perfect. If someone needs reproof I openly admit my imperfections so they see I'm not just pointing out the speck in their eye while ignoring my log. To me this is the best way to help someone. Being perfect just puts up defenses and comes across as dangerous in my mind.

It depends. This is not enough info to discern who is correct.

If person A is trusting 100% in Jesus Christs good works, and not their own, then they are correct to be sure they are going to Heaven. If they are trusting in themselves at all, they are not correct.

However, person B has either 1) Weak faith or 2)No faith in Jesus Christ and they don't understand the Gospel. They may believe in Jesus, but are seeing their own sins and doubting God has paid for them in full in Jesus Christ. Their heart is condemning them because of their sins. This person may have Faith, but it may be weak. Or they may not have Faith at all. If they have Faith at all, they are saved and God will free them from all sin and give them a clear conscious and assurance of salvation. If they do not have faith in Jesus, they are correct to doubt they will go to heaven.

 

[Chris V++]

Who is more correct in their view?
A. A person who knows without a doubt they are 100% going to heaven.
B. A person who sometimes has doubts about it?

I have to go with option A on faith, since the alternative would lead me to despair. I don't go through life thinking I don't deserve hell, but having believed and repented, I am not going to let myself go through life thinking I might be cut down by some technicality or failure to perform some work, ritual, or sacrifice required for justification or redemption. Who can do enough to deserve eternal life anyway?

Will there be an opportunity for repentance after death? I agree with Raymond that we cannot fully know the mind of God and certainly cannot put limits on his love and mercy. I would like to think he would and indeed He is far more loving and merciful than our minds can comprehend.

However, whether God would grant someone another chance to repent is pure speculation on our part since it is not a teaching supported by scripture. The Bible is emphatic that we shall die once and face judgement.

Some have pointed out Jesus descended and preached to the prisoners prior to the resurrection, which may suggest hope for those who have passed in an unrepentant.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I have to go with option A on faith, since the alternative would lead me to despair. I don't go through life thinking I don't deserve hell, but having believed and repented, I am not going to let myself go through life thinking I might be cut down by some technicality or failure to perform some work, ritual, or sacrifice required for justification or redemption. Who can do enough to deserve eternal life anyway?


Some have pointed out Jesus descended and preached to the prisoners prior to the resurrection, which may suggest hope for those who have passed in an unrepentant.

Who would these prisoners be?
Most believe them to be those awaiting the resurrection in Abraham's Bossom in Luke 16:19-31

 

[Chris V++]

Who would these prisoners be?
Most believe them to be those awaiting the resurrection in Abraham's Bossom in Luke 16:19-31

It was the souls that perished in Noah's time- the worst generation ever (to paraphrase a priest who posts on the forum)

17For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Who is more correct in their view?
A. A person who knows without a doubt they are 100% going to heaven.
B. A person who sometimes has doubts about it?

Person A due to the deceptive nature of sin and lacking immutability can also be person B at times. People change and person A could "backslide" to the point of feeling and thinking like person B, not that it is the case, but because of the deceptive nature of sin, the effects of sin on the heart and mind. So I do not see these two as mutually exclusive so far as human experience is concerned. So far as God is concerned, everything is settled, problem is, we cannot read His mind that we could know all of the details of our lives from beginning to end. Knowing and not doubting involves faith, we are called to have faith in Christ, that is trust in His work on our behalf for our righteousness and salvation.

Philippians 1:6 "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

2 Timothy 1:12 "But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that day what has been entrusted to me."

 

[GodsGrace101]

It was the souls that perished in Noah's time- the worst generation ever (to paraphrase a priest who posts on the forum)

17For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21

Yes, I've heard this too.
Frankly, I'm not sure biblical scholars are agreed on this.

Paul does teach us that we die and then comes the judgement.
Hebrews 9:27

I don't quite understand why those persons from Noah's time deserve special attention.
Do you?

God was sorry to see all the sinning,,,but man has always sinned.

I think Luke makes more sense, but I'm not determined to argue this. What about the fact that even the cc now states that Jesus never went to hell but to the "lower earth" ?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Who is more correct in their view?
A. A person who knows without a doubt they are 100% going to heaven.
B. A person who sometimes has doubts about it?

May seem like an obvious answer of A is the right choice as they are sure they know where they are going. But the bible does say many will stand before Him and He will say "Go away, I do not know you." This is why I feel person B is more correct. Many people sometimes have doubts or worries. It's normal.

But often I find people A to be "holier than thou", judgemental, self-righteous...etc. The kind of people that the bible says often are knocked down from their perch of being so sure of themselves. They often say they never screw up, brag about their works and how perfect they are in Christ. Never show humility...etc. Like "Well I have never done <insert sin>, you must not believe enough if you have issue sometimes!".

Admiteddly whatever the case I don't even know, only God does. But I'd rather sometimes question myself than pretend I am perfect. I never even pretend to be perfect. If someone needs reproof I openly admit my imperfections so they see I'm not just pointing out the speck in their eye while ignoring my log. To me this is the best way to help someone. Being perfect just puts up defenses and comes across as dangerous in my mind.

One can have an assurance of salvation if they know Jesus Christ.

For he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).

Paul says prove that Christ is in you unless you be reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5).

How can a person have an assurance in knowing the Lord?

If they find that they are keeping His commandments.

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” (1 John 2:3).

For the person who says they know the Lord and they do not obey His commands, they are a liar and the truth is not in them.

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).

Yes, we first need God’s grace by faith before we can obey. For we are initially and ultimately saved by God’s grace, but His grace is not a license for immortality (Jude 1:4). God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

Your version of 100% certainty sounds like the popular Free Grace teaching that tells you not to fear or to work out your salvation with trembling.

 

[Chris V++]

I think Luke makes more sense, but I'm not determined to argue this. What about the fact that even the cc now states that Jesus never went to hell but to the "lower earth" ?

I think its more an Orthodox belief, and at one time they were in communion with the RCC, but I 'm not sure what to make of it exactly. They also have a different take on hell, from what I understand , that those who are suffering in Hell will bein God's presence and experience His Love as burning torture, but that doesn't seem to sync with Jesus saying 'depart from me' which suggests the opposite.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I think its more an Orthodox belief, and at one time they were in communion with the RCC, but I 'm not sure what to make of it exactly. They also have a different take on hell, from what I understand , that those who are suffering in Hell will bein God's presence and experience His Love as burning torture, but that doesn't seem to sync with Jesus saying 'depart from me' which suggests the opposite.

One of the Creeds says that Jesus descended into hell because in the original language it said infernum which was taken to mean hell....but really it just means the "lower earth".

In the romance languages, however, inferno is used to mean hell.

And on that mixed up explanation (but which is correct),,,I leave you till next time.

 

[Justified112]

Who is more correct in their view?
A. A person who knows without a doubt they are 100% going to heaven.
B. A person who sometimes has doubts about it?

May seem like an obvious answer of A is the right choice as they are sure they know where they are going. But the bible does say many will stand before Him and He will say "Go away, I do not know you." This is why I feel person B is more correct. Many people sometimes have doubts or worries. It's normal.

The people who are told to "go away" were the people who were trusting in the good things they had done. Salvation is by grace through faith, which is why you can always be 100% sure you are saved. If salvation is based on your efforts, your merit, then you have no assurance that you will ever be good enough, no assurance whatsoever.

But often I find people A to be "holier than thou", judgemental, self-righteous...etc. The kind of people that the bible says often are knocked down from their perch of being so sure of themselves. They often say they never screw up, brag about their works and how perfect they are in Christ. Never show humility...etc. Like "Well I have never done <insert sin>, you must not believe enough if you have issue sometimes!".

Usually the "holier than thou" crowd are the ones who don't know if they are going to heaven or not. They are that way because they are trying to be good enough to get into heaven and they judge people who they don't thin, are as good as they are.

People with full assurance, who 100% know they are going to Heaven, are depending on the grace of God and his unchanging promises. They know that they are not deserving of heaven, but trust in a God who doesn't lie and doesn't break His promises. Those with 100% assurance are the opposite of "holier than thou."

Admiteddly whatever the case I don't even know, only God does. But I'd rather sometimes question myself than pretend I am perfect. I never even pretend to be perfect. If someone needs reproof I openly admit my imperfections so they see I'm not just pointing out the speck in their eye while ignoring my log. To me this is the best way to help someone. Being perfect just puts up defenses and comes across as dangerous in my mind.

The Lord didn't give us a hope-so salvation. And having full assurance is not about pretending to be perfect. None of us are. The problem is that you appear to have a works-based approach to salvation and that your lack of knowing stems from not being sure if you have performed well enough to deserve Heaven. I can answer that question. You are not good enough and never will be. That is why Jesus went to the cross. He paid for our sins because we could not pay for them. He purchased salvation for and all we have to do is put our faith and trust in Jesus for salvation. He makes us accepted. He declares that we are legally in right standing with God when we place our full faith and trust in Him.

 

[Toro]

Depends on the person that is "100%"

IF the person does not do the will of the Father and they are "100% sure" then they might just be deceived that they are saved whe the Bible disagrees.

Matthew 7:21-23

Jesus even said "Many will come to me saying Lord Lord" which means there will be a great deal of people that believe they are saved and will enter the Kingdom, but instead will hear "Depart from me.."

Is there security in salvation... Yes, BUT we are not to neglect it. We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12

No salvation is 100% unless you desire to do the will of the Father. It doesnt mean you are perfect... but if you seek your own will above the Fathers... how is that any different than what Adam did? If you seek your own will hiw is that any different from what satan did?

We are born of the same flesh as Adam, so yes, it is in our nature to do as the flesh does.... but if all we do is the way of the flesh that leads to death... how can we claim to abide in Christ and He in us? How can we claim to know the Spirit if all we know is the flesh and never take up our cross and follow the one we claim as Lord?

IF a person is 100% secure at the moment of their salvation and do the will of the Father they are correct.

IF the one that has doubts, but are seeking to do the will of the Father and seek Jesus and the light, then they too are also correct.

Salvation is relationship to Christ, as with all relationships there are stages and growth. If you claim Christ for 40 years, but remain at the acquaintance level... is there really a relationship there?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Who is more correct in their view?
A. A person who knows without a doubt they are 100% going to heaven.
B. A person who sometimes has doubts about it?

May seem like an obvious answer of A is the right choice as they are sure they know where they are going. But the bible does say many will stand before Him and He will say "Go away, I do not know you." This is why I feel person B is more correct. Many people sometimes have doubts or worries. It's normal.

But often I find people A to be "holier than thou", judgemental, self-righteous...etc. The kind of people that the bible says often are knocked down from their perch of being so sure of themselves. They often say they never screw up, brag about their works and how perfect they are in Christ. Never show humility...etc. Like "Well I have never done <insert sin>, you must not believe enough if you have issue sometimes!".

Admiteddly whatever the case I don't even know, only God does. But I'd rather sometimes question myself than pretend I am perfect. I never even pretend to be perfect. If someone needs reproof I openly admit my imperfections so they see I'm not just pointing out the speck in their eye while ignoring my log. To me this is the best way to help someone. Being perfect just puts up defenses and comes across as dangerous in my mind.

Those in A need to know that we are judged by our works. If you live a life as a condemning Christian with no love He will say to you "I never knew you". Best to love one another, stay on the narrow road that leads to the gate so that your name is not blotted out of the book of life and on the day of judgment you are not thrown into the lake of fire. It's all there in scripture.

Those in B have no faith in Jesus Christ of Nazareth thus, He will not know them either. No faith=lake of fire.

There is a C.
Blessings

 

[Chris V++]

One of the Creeds says that Jesus descended into hell because in the original language it said infernum which was taken to mean hell....but really it just means the "lower earth".

In the romance languages, however, inferno is used to mean hell.

And on that mixed up explanation (but which is correct),,,I leave you till next time.

I remember hearing a sermon that hell was derived from gehenna which was a trash dump where trash was burned outside the city. Gehenna - Wikipedia This sort of fits with the idea of tares being thrown into the fire (trash heap) According to wikipedia the Jews believed it to be the destination of the wicked, not the same as hades. I can see how hell and lower earth could refer to the same place. When I think of lower earth I think of volcanic activity/ lava.

 

[Rescued One]

I like what @Anthony2019 posted.

And, I can say that I agree with what you've said.
Persons that are very sure are also very proudful and boastful. I think we all must have doubts every now and then if we understand that we're to live in the Kingdom of God and that we have a part in our salvation.

I don't, however, think we should be downtrodden and worrying about our salvation all the time. Jesus said He came to give us a life more abundant -- it cannot be abundant if we have no joy.

And, as the other poster said, we must trust God's mercy, His love and His justice.

I must be a fluke or some abnormal creation. I don't doubt that God will take me to heaven. I believe in His mercy and depend on His help every day. That doesn't make me better than anyone. "I am blessed," would be a better statement.

 

[Rescued One]

Christians are not judgmental because they know that God forgives them even though they don't deserve forgiveness.

Luke 18
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Luke 4
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

[pantingdeer]

Who is more correct in their view?
A. A person who knows without a doubt they are 100% going to heaven.
B. A person who sometimes has doubts about it?

May seem like an obvious answer of A is the right choice as they are sure they know where they are going. But the bible does say many will stand before Him and He will say "Go away, I do not know you." This is why I feel person B is more correct. Many people sometimes have doubts or worries. It's normal.

But often I find people A to be "holier than thou", judgemental, self-righteous...etc. The kind of people that the bible says often are knocked down from their perch of being so sure of themselves. They often say they never screw up, brag about their works and how perfect they are in Christ. Never show humility...etc. Like "Well I have never done <insert sin>, you must not believe enough if you have issue sometimes!".

Admiteddly whatever the case I don't even know, only God does. But I'd rather sometimes question myself than pretend I am perfect. I never even pretend to be perfect. If someone needs reproof I openly admit my imperfections so they see I'm not just pointing out the speck in their eye while ignoring my log. To me this is the best way to help someone. Being perfect just puts up defenses and comes across as dangerous in my mind.

Doesn't John 3:16 give us definitive answer?