ReesePiece23

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Submissiveness... That's a bit tricky.

I want to be told that "I'm wrong" when I actually am. I want her independence to be fulfilled, I want to respectfully disagree with one another...

Otherwise, what's the point? You're sent to learn from each other as well as grow together.
 
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bèlla

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Ten features are a lot. I think that a man can really look for all of them in a woman, but I think if the male and the female discover that they have kindred souls, defining the features is no longer so important.

I view the list as references to character and godly qualities a man would treasure in a spouse. You can find spiritual parallels for each.

~bella
 
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bèlla

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Submissiveness... That's a bit tricky.

I want to be told that "I'm wrong" when I actually am. I want her independence to be fulfilled, I want to respectfully disagree with one another...

Submission is a hallmark of respect for the person and the position they occupy as determined by God. Honoring your spouse doesn't prevent you from sharing your opinion. But how you do it matters.

You won't always agree with the man but you honor the office. It's a concept those who've lived under a monarchy understand more so than those who haven't.

Otherwise, what's the point? You're sent to learn from each other as well as grow together.

There's a line in a song that answers this perfectly. It's not about a man, woman or couple. It's about the Lord. But if you understand how we're meant to impact one another in a marriage you'll grasp the reference.

And so this might could be the most impossible thing
Your grandness in me, making me clean


--Wholly Yours, David Crowder Band

~bella
 
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Palmfever

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I've had difficulty finding suitable content in the trad sphere. It's a mixed bag and the messages aren't always biblically sound or the delivery is not to my liking. But I happened upon two people on a platform I rarely visit and they're what I've been seeking.

This little nugget was worthy of sharing. The author is male and I don't believe he's married and he's Christian. Sometimes I wonder if we spend too much time on the wrong things and not enough on what matters most.

~bella

View attachment 343629

Confidence

Intelligence

Independence yet voluntary agreement

Faith in God and sound advice

Unified resolve
 
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timewerx

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Submissiveness... That's a bit tricky.

I want to be told that "I'm wrong" when I actually am. I want her independence to be fulfilled, I want to respectfully disagree with one another...

Otherwise, what's the point? You're sent to learn from each other as well as grow together.

The way many Christian churches preach about the topic of submission in Eph 5 is that the husband would end up submitting to the wife half of the time.

"Love your wife" would mean listening to your wife if she need to say something or getting her opinion on something, brainstorm about it and if the wife's idea is more sound then go with wife's decision.

Ironically, if the wife is smarter, then the husband ends up submitting to wife's decisions most of the time.

A Christian wife in many cases do have same levels of independence as the Christian husband.

This is actually the result of the modern Christian teaching on the matter. The wife submitting to the husband has been reduced to formality and not actually keeping to it because they fail to understand what Paul is saying in Eph 5.

This should make you happy if you're looking for Christian wife with a "mind of her own" who is smart, independent, and adds to the value of your marriage. Someone who isn't just a backseat passenger but someone actively involved in running the family or the business (if you have one) helping make big decisions and not just nodding to your every command and blindly following it.

Ironically, what Paul is actually saying in Eph 5 is blind obedience of wives to the husbands and the husbands making sure the family is fed, sheltered, clothed, and doesn't stray from path of righteousness - As Christ's responsibility to the church so is the husband to the wife/family.

We obey the orders of a captain of a ship as the captain steers the ship to safety and making sure everyone arrives to their destination safe and well. You don't tell the captain how to run the ship.

Ironically, if they sounded like words of inspiration, unfortunately to those who are big fans of that teaching, it doesn't apply to us - 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. It is an exceptionally isolated teaching of Paul towards a certain group of people. If anyone assumes all teachings of Paul applies to us, they will inevitably run into contradictory teachings. In fact, they will discover contradictory teaching within Paul's epistles itself. Likely the consequence of 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

If that may sound confusing, I'll just say the wife don't need to submit to the husband all the time. More realistically in a moral sense, it's going to be 50/50. Around half the time, the wife would submit to the husband and half the time, the husband would submit to the wife. The wife can't submit to the husband 100% all the time unless the husband is capable of picking the best decisions, best choice all the time 100%. Perhaps, if the wife literally married Jesus himself.
 
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bèlla

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I do not find Paul's teachings confusing nor do I believe the Lord would ignore someone who desired to understand who possessed His Spirit. The bible tells us He isn't the author of confusion. We were given the Holy Spirit's purpose and role in our instruction. And we're reminded that He will answer a righteous and sincere prayer.

Sample Prayer to Understand the Bible

Father, in the name of Jesus I decree and declare...

Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.
Teach me Your way, O LORD, I will walk and live in Your truth.
Direct my heart to fear Your name [with awe-inspired reverence and submissive wonder].
The unfolding of Your [glorious] words give light.
Their unfolding gives understanding to the simple (childlike).
Teach me, O Lord, the way of Your statutes.
And I will [steadfastly] observe it to the end.
Give me understanding [a teachable heart and the ability to learn]
That I may keep Your law and observe it with all my heart.


In Jesus' Name I pray. Amen.

~bella
 
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timewerx

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I do not find Paul's teachings confusing nor do I believe the Lord would ignore someone who desired to understand who possessed His Spirit. The bible tells us He isn't the author of confusion. We were given the Holy Spirit's purpose and role in our instruction. And we're reminded that He will answer a righteous and sincere prayer.

They all have the anointing of the Holy Spirit already when Peter said some of Paul's writings/teachings are not making any sense.

For what reason the Holy Spirit would not reveal Paul's writings with clarity to Peter?
 
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bèlla

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They all have the anointing of the Holy Spirit already when Peter said some of Paul's writings/teachings are not making any sense.

For what reason the Holy Spirit would not reveal Paul's writings with clarity to Peter?

The passage you're referencing is 2 Peter 3:16. I will quote the proceeding verse for context.

And consider the patience of our Lord [His delay in judging and avenging wrongs] as salvation [that is, allowing time for more to be saved]; just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given to him [by God].

Peter confirms Paul's writings are the result of wisdom derived from God. He establishes this in preparation for what follows.

speaking about these things as he does in all of his letters. In which there are some things that are difficult to understand, which the untaught and unstable [who have fallen into error] twist and misinterpret, just as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

He's addressing the Lord's patience in the reference for things and acknowledges Paul does the same continually in his letters. Which attests to his consistency.

Peter isn't confused nor does the text suggest it. Only the untaught and unstable are confused. But the latter doesn't seek enlightenment nor are Paul's writings the lone ones that confuse them.

Once he clarifies the situation he reminds them how they differ in the verse that follows and provides a warning.

Therefore, [let me warn you] beloved, knowing these things beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men [who distort doctrine] and fall from your own steadfastness [of mind, knowledge, truth, and faith].

Steadfast
: firmly fixed in place; immovable
: not subject to change
: firm in belief, determination, or adherence; loyal

Peter is giving them a heads up in these passages. Beware of these things. Beware of these people. If you listen you'll go astray.

~bella
 
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timewerx

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The passage you're referencing is 2 Peter 3:16. I will quote the proceeding verse for context.

And consider the patience of our Lord [His delay in judging and avenging wrongs] as salvation [that is, allowing time for more to be saved]; just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given to him [by God].

Peter confirms Paul's writings are the result of wisdom derived from God. He establishes this in preparation for what follows.

speaking about these things as he does in all of his letters. In which there are some things that are difficult to understand, which the untaught and unstable [who have fallen into error] twist and misinterpret, just as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

He's addressing the Lord's patience in the reference for things and acknowledges Paul does the same continually in his letters. Which attests to his consistency.

Peter isn't confused nor does the text suggest it. Only the untaught and unstable are confused. But the latter doesn't seek enlightenment nor are Paul's writings the lone ones that confuse them.

Once he clarifies the situation he reminds them how they differ in the verse that follows and provides a warning.

Therefore, [let me warn you] beloved, knowing these things beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men [who distort doctrine] and fall from your own steadfastness [of mind, knowledge, truth, and faith].

Steadfast
: firmly fixed in place; immovable
: not subject to change
: firm in belief, determination, or adherence; loyal

Peter is giving them a heads up in these passages. Beware of these things. Beware of these people. If you listen you'll go astray.

~bella

You really need to study that passage in Greek. The English translation tones it down. What Peter is actually saying is that some of Paul's teachings could not be understood rather than difficult to understand. Big difference there.

Yes, people will try put meaning in poetry even where's really no meaning to it. I prefer to just leave alone. I treat it in the same manner as reading some of the laws put down by Moses in Leviticus. We read in Leviticus that adulterers must be stoned to death. But we don't do it.
 
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GodBeMercifulToMeASinner

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They all have the anointing of the Holy Spirit already when Peter said some of Paul's writings/teachings are not making any sense.

For what reason the Holy Spirit would not reveal Paul's writings with clarity to Peter?
It wasn’t Peter or his audience to whom Paul’s writings are unclear.

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.”
—2 Peter 3:16-17

Peter is referring to the ‘unlearned and unstable’, or the wicked, who ‘wrest’ (distort) the scriptures. Which as we see from the sorry, sorry state of the modern ‘church’ (so-called), leads to their destruction. In the following verse Peter tells his audience to beware of such people (the wicked) so that they are not misled. He encourages his audience to remain in their steadfastness (firmly set in sound doctrine). So clearly, Peter and his audience aren’t the ones who are confused by Paul’s teachings.

As for what the religious system preaches in regards to marital relations, their divorce rate mirrors that of the world. So there’s that. They’ve strayed from biblical doctrine for many centuries, dating all the way back to the unbiblically titled ‘church fathers’ (so-called). Even before then actually..John, Peter, Paul and the Lord Jesus Christ all warned of false teachers both during their times and the future. Nothing new under the Big Top of Clown World.

It should be noted that a majority of the modern building-based religious system is women. Up to 70% female or even more in some assemblies. I hear it said often ‘where’s all the men, they hardly go to church anymore’. So, modern pastors, the majority of which are corrupt, compromised, feminized, 501c3 owned (or the equivalent in other nations) and willing to cave to the modern paganized culture, are going to avoid touchy matters which may offend the majority of their audience such as submission to husbands. Today, feminism (societal AIDS) is in vogue, and the majority of women within the weekend religious system (and men to be fair) are worldly, carnally minded, unregenerate..the majority of them believe in a false ‘christ’ which they believe they can take the liberty of shaping and molding to their liking, a customized ‘jesus’ who is willing to conform to the modern paganized culture. A ‘savior’ who not only ‘eats with sinners’ but co-signs to their sins and even sins with them.

Many modern pastors are not much different than politicians, they tell their target audience what they believe they want to hear. And the majority of the target audience in weekend building-based religion is women, most of whom subscribe to the castration of western society known as feminism, an ideology which teaches them resentment of men, so the feminized and compromised modern pastors will cater to them and avoid Paul (and Peter’s) teachings on marriage. If not, the tithes, offerings, and demand for their services/job opportunities will dwindle. The ‘christian’ youtubers won’t sell as many Jesus coffee mugs and yoga pants. The multi-billion dollar religious industry would collapse.

Modern weekend religion is based upon a highly successful business model, and CONTROL, not biblical doctrine. There’s about 40,000 different religions within the system and still counting, designed to suit everyone’s unique taste. You’ll have some religious assemblies that preach keeping the women barefoot, pregnant, and chained to a the stove, and you’ll have some assemblies with misandrist lesbian atheist Lutheran pastors. And everything in between. All depends on the perceived desires of the target audience. But most assemblies within the modern religious system lean on the side of the feminist narrative, that biblical marriage roles are ‘oppression’ for women. Surprise, surprise, their divorce rate mirrors the world. And many of the men within this system have been emasculated..taught to be soft, quiet, weak, timid, submissive..while the women are encouraged to be independent, strong, empowered. No wonder why there are so many single and lonely Christians now. The weekend religious system has encouraged men and women to swap roles just like the pagan culture teaches.

There is no such thing as 50/50 in regards to submission. Someone is going to be taking the lead. And any man who allows that to be the woman, things are not going to end well for him I guarantee. In a marriage where both people are John 3:3 reborn believers this sort of thing won’t even be an issue, the man and woman won’t have any discrepancies with their biblical roles and will be on the same page. Their marriage will be based on what the Bible teaches, not the world’s SJW agendas.

It is when modern trends of the pagan culture (feminism in this case) are thrown into the mix that problems arise, divorce rates escalate. Singleness and loneliness increases. Unrealistic expectations also increase. People these days both pagans and churchgoers alike are all brainwashed into believing they are all special snowflakes, and out there is another special snowflake, almost as special as them in fact, which God made just for them; a ‘soulmate’. Which is totally unbiblical nonsense because husband and wife are made ‘one flesh’ (Mark 10:8) not one soul like the pagan new agers teach. Besides, if this pagan ideology were true then God wouldn’t allow for remarriage. It’s about commitment, just like we are to commit to Christ.

A husband who does not lead will soon be treated like a gay roommate by his wife. I guarantee it.

Edit: I just saw what the other poster, Bella said in her post about that passage from Peter..she is 100% right about what that verse means, it is only the wicked Peter was referring to. I included that verse in my post because I didn’t see her mention of it when writing mine.

Also, the law of Moses was under the Old Covenant..Paul and Peter’s teachings are under the New Covenant.
 
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bèlla

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You really need to study that passage in Greek. The English translation tones it down. What Peter is actually saying is that some of Paul's teachings could not be understood rather than difficult to understand. Big difference there.

Yes, people will try put meaning in poetry even where's really no meaning to it. I prefer to just leave alone. I treat it in the same manner as reading some of the laws put down by Moses in Leviticus. We read in Leviticus that adulterers must be stoned to death. But we don't do it.

The word of God is discerned through the spirit not human intellect. Reading the Greek provides additional insight and is fitting in some instances and unnecessary for most. The some in that statement references an important distinction. We walk in the measure of light we possess. The desire to comb the word and unpack foreign tongues is usually the result of related gifts which fosters the hunger.

I studied Peter's books a few years ago in a Precepts class. Greek was an integral part of the lessons and the instructor (Wayne Barber) studied under Dr. Spiros Zodhiates who was one of the world’s leading Greek scholars. Most of their teachings were available in two versions; the founder and Wayne's. We used his for our studies because of his expertise. When I took the class I played the scriptures every night while I slept to bake it in.

If you're interested you can reference the Precepts Austin website. They put all their notes online and it's a great resource. A gentleman that I watch on occasion recommends the Brenton Septuagint with Apocrypha. You may want to check it out.

Lest anyone think otherwise, I'm not suggesting it isn't helpful to reference Hebrew or Greek when studying the bible. But it isn't required to grasp the essence of the text if you're willing to take your time and go line by line.

~bella
 
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bèlla

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I quoted this yesterday and expounded on the idea elsewhere. The additional input may prove useful for this discussion.

Your grandness in me, making me clean --Wholly Yours, David Crowder Band

Although the line is referencing God as is the song. I saw within the snippet a parallel between husband and wife. The washing of the bride so to speak. The song exemplifies adoration and I explain its application within a marriage.

It isn't the casual acknowledgment of godlikeness or reverence without cause. In its truest sense it's the recognition of divinity in light of fallibility that leaves me speechless. The majesty we behold when we see beyond the obvious.

Beyond appearance and attraction. Beyond our thoughts and emotions. Beyond the words and all the rest. Until all that remains is nakedness. A light so bright we must cover our eyes to look upon it and we're in awe.


The light that I'm referring to is the spirit. It's a reminder to see as He does because He defined the roles. And while we may endeavor to do our best we're going to stumble. But that doesn't set aside our place or the responsibilities He assigned.

We don't get a pass because we don't feel like submitting or leading. It's a spiritual law and laws have consequences when they're broken. The spirit realm is similar to a courtroom. There's checks and balances everywhere.

~bella
 
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timewerx

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It wasn’t Peter or his audience to whom Paul’s writings are unclear.

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.”
—2 Peter 3:16-17

Yet, Peter said they are unclear to himself too right in the verse you quoted.

What Peter said in Greek was dusnoétos from the words "dus"(not, un, mal, without) + "noeó" (think, perceive, think).

Same as anoétos which generally means "mindless" or "without thinking" or even foolishness.

It's leaning toward unpleasant. In a way, Peter is criticizing some of Paul's teachings.

We're dealing with far-from-perfect characters in the Bible which certainly includes both Peter and Paul.

We recount many characters in the Bible making mistakes, some plainly obvious and explicitly stated. While some are not as plain and obvious and quite disturbingly, humanity built the world's most powerful religion around those mistakes.
 
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Palmfever

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They all have the anointing of the Holy Spirit already when Peter said some of Paul's writings/teachings are not making any sense.

For what reason the Holy Spirit would not reveal Paul's writings with clarity to Peter?
Peter did not in any way indicate that he did not understand Pauls words.

2 Peter 3:14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

In Christ
 
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bèlla

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@timewerx

If memory serves you had reservations about Paul in the past. I'm uncertain if that still holds true. But if it does you may wish to include your concerns for context on your position. While that isn't the premise of the OP it isn't off-topic to the degree where it's unrelated.

~bella
 
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GodBeMercifulToMeASinner

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Yet, Peter said they are unclear to himself too right in the verse you quoted.

What Peter said in Greek was dusnoétos from the words "dus"(not, un, mal, without) + "noeó" (think, perceive, think).

Same as anoétos which generally means "mindless" or "without thinking" or even foolishness.

It's leaning toward unpleasant. In a way, Peter is criticizing some of Paul's teachings.

We're dealing with far-from-perfect characters in the Bible which certainly includes both Peter and Paul.

We recount many characters in the Bible making mistakes, some plainly obvious and explicitly stated. While some are not as plain and obvious and quite disturbingly, humanity built the world's most powerful religion around those mistakes.
Nah, it isn’t Peter who was unclear about Paul’s teachings..it is plain to see he says it is the wicked he is referring to, not himself or his audience. That’s further reinforced when he goes on to encourage his audience to not be led astray by the wicked, and to remain in steadfastness. Peter and Paul in fact were in 100% agreement as far as marital roles.

“Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;”
—1 Peter 3:1

Peter wasn’t criticizing Paul. He is criticizing ‘they that are unstable’ and ‘the wicked’ (2 Peter 3:16-17). In the previous verse 2 Peter 3:15 refers to Paul as ‘beloved brother’. Hardly critical of Paul. Peter was not referring to himself or his brethren as unlearned, unstable, and wicked. Those are the ones he said do not understand Paul’s teachings. Not himself and his audience.

True they are imperfect people, but the scriptures are God-inspired (2 Timothy 3:16) not Paul or Peter or anyone else inspired. They’re only vessels which God used. Sure, many people in the scriptures made mistakes if you mean what David and Solomon did, or how Paul used to persecute Christians and things of that nature but God did not make a single mistake anywhere laying out His doctrine nor the people He chose to deliver it.

The most powerful religion in the world is not the true, biblical Christian Faith by a longshot. If by powerful you mean the most followers and most influence and whatnot. Far from it. Where I am from, the Lord’s name is used as a cuss word by the majority of people constantly, all over the entertainment media, music, the internet, the workplace, etc. Never the gods of pagan religions, only the Lord. Christ and the Bible were thrown out of the public schools. The government is a bunch of greedy and corrupt reprobate baby killers. The religious buildings are full of wolves, goats, and tares. Unbiblical things like feminism, sodomy, transsexualism, loving the things of the world, being a lover of self, seeking pleasure and fun, pursuing mammon, and many other things are what is being pushed all across Clown World particularly in the West.

If you mean that the false, paganized version(s) of christianity is the most popular (and perhaps the most powerful) religion then I would agree. But narrow is the way, few there be. The Biblical Christian Faith is far from the most powerful religion as far as having a say in the Clown World culture. In fact this is why the biblical role of wives submitting to husbands is so unpopular in the western feminist society. The Biblical Christian Faith is definitely not the ‘current thing’. Never was.
 
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timewerx

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@timewerx

If memory serves you had reservations about Paul in the past. I'm uncertain if that still holds true. But if it does you may wish to include your concerns for context on your position. While that isn't the premise of the OP it isn't off-topic to the degree where it's unrelated.

~bella

I used to but not anymore. I now regard all the disciples and apostles equal because they all made mistakes. I made mistakes in what I believe.

Nobody's perfect right? The Holy Spirit won't make you perfect either.

Although miracles are real, there is no miracle nor magic what will somehow stop you from making mistakes and force into the right direction or the right words to say. The Holy Spirit doesn't work that way, nor God.

Some of the mistakes they did was plainly stated. Some not.

Jesus himself made a strong implication that the apostles will fail in their mission to bring the Good News and this is right in the Bible. I never read it from anywhere, I simply found on my own.

I'm not trying to read the Bible like a crime novel because I'm bored. But if you really pay attention, deconstruct your mind of all the biases of religion, upbringing, other people, and society, even humanity, the truth really begins to unfold. The New Testament is mostly about a warning of things that may not seem as they are.

Ironically, Paul mentioned many of these "constructs" in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. He had to creatively imagine himself into someone harboring such strong biases so he can speak in ways his audiences will understand.

Thus, many of Paul's letters are strongly audience-specific and mostly likely not meant for us. The message of Jesus in the Gospels + Holy Spirit already encompass all we need to know in order to grow our mind and Spirit in matters of God and the Truth.
 
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bèlla

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I'm not trying to read the Bible like a crime novel because I'm bored. But if you really pay attention, deconstruct your mind of all the biases of religion, upbringing, other people, and society, even humanity, the truth really begins to unfold. The New Testament is mostly about a warning of things that may not seem as they are.

It's interesting you're relying on yourself for deconstruction not the Lord. There's a difference in scope and approach. The Holy Spirit doesn't contradict the word. That's one of the ways you can tell a lying spirit is near. They can quote the bible but there's always something off.

Thus, many of Paul's letters are strongly audience-specific and mostly likely not meant for us. The message of Jesus in the Gospels + Holy Spirit already encompass all we need to know in order to grow our mind and Spirit in matters of God and the Truth.

In all the years I've communed with the Lord He's never said the same. And the word I received still holds true.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

This is one of the reasons I pray scripture and did from beginning. It's a good defense against spiritual error and provides an unlimited reservoir of truth. That's what the Spirit brings to remembrance.

The word that comes to mind is mixture. There's another influence here.

~bella
 
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