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1 Timothy 4:3

Soyeong

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I disagree that this is what the passage says.

Concerning things sacrificed to idols

1 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols: we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love builds up.
2 But anyone who thinks that he knows anything does not yet know as he should know.
3 On the other hand, if anyone loves God, such a person is known by him.
4 Therefore, concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.
5 Indeed, although there are [many] things called “gods” in the heavens or on earth—and there are many [so-called] “gods” and many “lords”—
6 yet, to us, there is one God the Father, from whom are all things; and we [are] for him; and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom are all things, and we live through him.
7 However, such knowledge is not found in everyone. There are some who eat things sacrificed to an idol with awareness of the idol, and their conscience (being weak) is defiled.
8 But food does not commend us to God, for if we eat, we are not better; and if we do not eat, we are not worse!
9 However, be careful that your freedom may never become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if someone sees you who have knowledge sitting in an idol’s temple, will not this person’s conscience, if weak, be emboldened to eat things sacrificed to idols?
11 And thus, through your knowledge, shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ!
13 Therefore, if food causes my brethren to stumble, I will never ever eat meat, so that I may not cause my brethren to stumble.

The weak conscience does not recognize the insignificance of idols, and so would be defiled by eating meat sacrificed to them, if they are emboldened to go against their conscience. But if we eat, or don't, we are not better, or worse. The important thing is to be aware of our weaker brother's conscience.

And so, just so ... I am not encouraging you to change your behavior and go against your conscience.

I mention this only because I brought the passage into the conversation, and so explain why.

In verses 1-3 Paul was talking about those who had become puffed up by their knowledge, about love building up, and contrasting knowing about God with knowing God. He then proceeded in verse 4 to speak to their arrogance in how they viewed themselves as "strong" because they knew that idols were nothing and how they viewed those who refrained from eating meat sacrificed to idols because of their close relationship with God as being "weak". They had knowledge about God, but they didn't have the wisdom to use it if they didn't know the character of God.

1 Corinthians 10:18-23 Consider the people of Israel:[d] are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? 19 What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. 22 Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

Here, Paul strongly condemns eating meat sacrificed to idols because the reality is that idols not non-existent, but are actually demons. How can someone partake in the unrighteous practice of sacrifices to demons which often included orgies and then have communion with God without provoking Him? Bad company ruins good morals, and not just for them, but for the weaker believers who look to them as "strong":

1 Corinthians 8:9-11 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating[c] in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged,[d] if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? 11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.

Furthermore, if we were free to eat meat that had been sacrificed to idols, then it wouldn't be an issue raised in Revelation:

Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality.

Revelation 2:20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants[c] to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.
 
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In verses 1-3 Paul was talking about those who had become puffed up by their knowledge, about love building up, and contrasting knowing about God with knowing God. He then proceeded in verse 4 to speak to their arrogance in how they viewed themselves as "strong" because they knew that idols were nothing and how they viewed those who refrained from eating meat sacrificed to idols because of their close relationship with God as being "weak". They had knowledge about God, but they didn't have the wisdom to use it if they didn't know the character of God.

1 Corinthians 10:18-23 Consider the people of Israel:[d] are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? 19 What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. 22 Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

Here, Paul strongly condemns eating meat sacrificed to idols because the reality is that idols not non-existent, but are actually demons. How can someone partake in the unrighteous practice of sacrifices to demons which often included orgies and then have communion with God without provoking Him? Bad company ruins good morals, and not just for them, but for the weaker believers who look to them as "strong":

1 Corinthians 8:9-11 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating[c] in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged,[d] if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? 11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.

Furthermore, if we were free to eat meat that had been sacrificed to idols, then it wouldn't be an issue raised in Revelation:

Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality.

Revelation 2:20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants[c] to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.

Thank you for your reply. Clearly we disagree a great deal about this passage, but I've already given my reading. It seems straightforward and plain enough to me without reading anything else into it.

I would submit that there is more going on in the issues raised in Revelation. Simply violating one's conscience is a sin as well, and sexual immorality always is sinful. Following such a teacher would doubtless involve even more problems.

God be with you.
 
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giftofGod2

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Concerning the eating of pork (i.e. sausage, ham, bacon, pork chops) is it possible that Paul was considering also that in the days of the Old Testament, people did not know how to cook pork so as to make it healthy? By the time of Paul, cooking methods were able to deal with the health problems that the eating of pig meat afforded.

I want everyone to notice what it says in verse 4, For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

In pointing these things out to you am I not being a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto I have attained? (1 Timothy 4:5) I am not saying this to pat myself on the back, but to show forth that what I am saying is true.
 
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Soyeong

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Concerning the eating of pork (i.e. sausage, ham, bacon, pork chops) is it possible that Paul was considering also that in the days of the Old Testament, people did not know how to cook pork so as to make it healthy? By the time of Paul, cooking methods were able to deal with the health problems that the eating of pig meat afforded.

I want everyone to notice what it says in verse 4, For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

In pointing these things out to you am I not being a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto I have attained? (1 Timothy 4:5) I am not saying this to pat myself on the back, but to show forth that what I am saying is true.

It is certainly possible that health concerns had something to do with it because there are down the line night and day differences in health between eating clean and unclean animals, but I think it is more than that. God could have just as easily included instructions for how to properly cook meat if that was the main concern, but refraining from eating pork is not just avoiding doing something that is unhealthy, but it is also avoiding doing something that is an abomination to God. Furthermore, we are told to avoid eating pork because it is about doing what is holy and because God is holy (Leviticus 11:44-45, 1 Peter 1:14-16), so it is about acting in line with God's character.

If 1 Timothy 4:4 is saying all foods including pork are to be received with thanksgiving then Leviticus 11 would be cancelled and no longer be God-breathed and profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness contrary to 2 Timothy 3:16. In 1 Timothy 4:3, it talks about those who required abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who know the truth. In Psalms 119:142, it says that God's law is truth, so those who know the truth know that God only gave certain animals to be received with thanksgiving. Again, if everything is acceptable to eat, then Leviticus 11 is no longer truth. Rather, this is talking about false teachers who were requiring abstinence from foods that God has already said is good to eat in Leviticus 11. This is also substantiated in 1 Timothy 4:5, where is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer. In order for something to be set apart, there needs to be something that it is set apart from, so the very fact that there are animals sanctified for eating means that there has to be some other group of animals that are not sanctified for eating. Why should we be thankful for eating animals eating animals that God told us was unclean?

Furthermore, different cultures have different ideas about what counts as food, so in keeping with the context, when we talk about food what should come to mind is not what we consider to be food, but what the author consider to be food, and what they considered to be food was the things that God had given as food in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. The Greek word "broma" us in verse 3 refers in Scripture to food that has already been declared to be clean:

Strong's #1033: broma (pronounced bro'-mah)

from the base of 977; food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonially) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law:--meat, victuals.

In Peter 3:15-17, it is saying that Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction and fall into the error or lawlessness. So the bottom line is that if you interpret Paul as being against anyone keeping God's dietary laws, then you have misunderstood him.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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In pointing these things out to you am I not being a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto I have attained?
No.
I want everyone to notice what it says in verse 4, For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
No. (not sanctified by the Word of Yhwh). See what the Word of Yhwh says
specifically about mouse, catfish, and pork (scavengers full of pesticides, mercury and other parasites and poisons, but that's besides the point).
What He says is not food for His people , is never food, and never sanctified.
Same as adultery - adultery is never sanctified nor permitted nor advised,
even under the "new covenant" and "grace".
 
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giftofGod2

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It is certainly possible that health concerns had something to do with it because there are down the line night and day differences in health between eating clean and unclean animals, but I think it is more than that. God could have just as easily included instructions for how to properly cook meat if that was the main concern, but refraining from eating pork is not just avoiding doing something that is unhealthy, but it is also avoiding doing something that is an abomination to God. Furthermore, we are told to avoid eating pork because it is about doing what is holy and because God is holy (Leviticus 11:44-45, 1 Peter 1:14-16), so it is about acting in line with God's character.

If 1 Timothy 4:4 is saying all foods including pork are to be received with thanksgiving then Leviticus 11 would be cancelled and no longer be God-breathed and profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness contrary to 2 Timothy 3:16. In 1 Timothy 4:3, it talks about those who required abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who know the truth. In Psalms 119:142, it says that God's law is truth, so those who know the truth know that God only gave certain animals to be received with thanksgiving. Again, if everything is acceptable to eat, then Leviticus 11 is no longer truth. Rather, this is talking about false teachers who were requiring abstinence from foods that God has already said is good to eat in Leviticus 11. This is also substantiated in 1 Timothy 4:5, where is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer. In order for something to be set apart, there needs to be something that it is set apart from, so the very fact that there are animals sanctified for eating means that there has to be some other group of animals that are not sanctified for eating. Why should we be thankful for eating animals eating animals that God told us was unclean?

Furthermore, different cultures have different ideas about what counts as food, so in keeping with the context, when we talk about food what should come to mind is not what we consider to be food, but what the author consider to be food, and what they considered to be food was the things that God had given as food in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. The Greek word "broma" us in verse 3 refers in Scripture to food that has already been declared to be clean:

Strong's #1033: broma (pronounced bro'-mah)

from the base of 977; food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonially) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law:--meat, victuals.

In Peter 3:15-17, it is saying that Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction and fall into the error or lawlessness. So the bottom line is that if you interpret Paul as being against anyone keeping God's dietary laws, then you have misunderstood him.

So the word every does not mean every, and nothing does not mean nothing, in that verse? I have misunderstood Paul to take him literally?

The fact of the matter is that your missionary on the field is not going to lose his salvation over eating what is given to him by the natives. It is taught by most missionary organiztions that doing so is a requirement to gaining entrance into the inner circle of unreached people groups: to refuse the food that they offer you would be considered an insult (i.e. implying that they would try to poison you) and you woud have no opening to share the gospel with them ever after.

No.

No. (not sanctified by the Word of Yhwh). See what the Word of Yhwh says
specifically about mouse, catfish, and pork (scavengers full of pesticides, mercury and other parasites and poisons, but that's besides the point).
What He says is not food for His people , is never food, and never sanctified.
Same as adultery - adultery is never sanctified nor permitted nor advised,
even under the "new covenant" and "grace".

I beg to differ. I am being a good minister of Jesus Christ, because the word tells me that I am, in pointing these things out to the brethren. I repeat the scriptures that declare it:

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 1 Timothy 4:5-6.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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So the word every does not mean every, and nothing does not mean nothing, in that verse? I have misunderstood Paul to take him literally?
That rendering of Yhwh's Inspired Breathed Word is not even close to literal.
 
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giftofGod2

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Soyeong, Leviticus 11 is cancelled as far as the believer in Christ is concerned. We are no longer under the law (Romans 6:14) are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19) and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6). It is also true that the handwriting of the old testament ordinances that were against us have been blotted out and taken away, having been nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14). Also He has abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (Ephesians 2:15).

This is not to say that Jesus came to destroy the law or the prophets, He came not to destroy but to fulfill. But they are fulfilled, not by a focus on them but by the fact of us being filled with the Holy Ghost, by whom the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts; and through this love the spirit of the law is fulfilled. We are no longer bound by the letter of the OT requirements.

Jesus also said that nothing that enters a man from without can defile him (and in doing this He declared all foods clean-see Mark 7:19 NIV)

We were once married to the OT law, and it was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. But after faith comes, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. We died and thus our marriage to the law was disanulled, so that we could enter into a relationship with Him who is risen from the dead. See Galatians 3:21-25, Romans 7:1-6.
 
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Soyeong

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So the word every does not mean every, and nothing does not mean nothing, in that verse? I have misunderstood Paul to take him literally?

Mark 1:5 All of Judea, including all the people of Jerusalem, went out to see and hear John. And when they confessed their sins, he baptized them in the Jordan River.

Very often words like "every" and "all" are qualified or have obvious exceptions. For example, do you take Mark 1:5 to mean that there was not a single person in all of Judea who didn't go out to see and hear John, including the people who were deaf or blind? I think it clearly is meaning that a large part of the Judean population went out to see and hear him. If you were staying as a guest in someone's house and they told you that you could eat anything in the fridge, would you understand that to mean that you have permission to eat there shelves and tupperware? Or are those obvious exceptions? I think more often than not "everyone" is qualified to refer to a specific group rather than to refer to every last person on the planet.

So in 1 Timothy 4:3-5, Paul was was talking about everything that that belongs to the category of foods that are to be received with thanksgiving that have been sanctified by the word of God and prayer. It is the category of clean foods in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 that the word "broma" is used to refer to, that God instructed to be received with thanksgiving, and that the word of God sanctifies. In 1 Timothy 3:4, "everything" and "nothing" are both qualified by the word "if", so he is again talking in regard to if it belongs to this category, not in regard to everything that can be eaten. If you don't think that a cannibal should interpret this verse as saying that it was fine to eat human flesh as long as they gave thanks for it, then you should not impose your understanding of the category of food onto this verse, but rather you should look at the context of what things Jews considered to be food, namely what is given as food in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14.

The fact of the matter is that your missionary on the field is not going to lose his salvation over eating what is given to him by the natives. It is taught by most missionary organiztions that doing so is a requirement to gaining entrance into the inner circle of unreached people groups: to refuse the food that they offer you would be considered an insult (i.e. implying that they would try to poison you) and you woud have no opening to share the gospel with them ever after.

Sinning in order to reach people with the Gospel would undermine the Gospel itself. I didn't say anything about losing your salvation if you ate pork.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You're saying it's figurative then? What is the figurative interpretation of 1 Timothy 4:4?
No. It is not at all figurative.

As Yeshua and all the first century Jewish disciples knew Torah, see below.

If you can find a more accurate translation like the excerpt below, or even a word study, it is simpler to see. (verify, test, learn, enjoy)

Chapter 4
1 But the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, following deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 who with false appearance mislead and will speak lies in hypocrisy, being seared in their own conscience,
3 forbidding to marry, saying to abstain from foods, which Elohim created for partaking with thanks- giving by the believers and those knowing the truth **5.
4 Because all things created by Elohim are good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with thanks- giving;
5 for it is sanctified through the Word of Elohim **6 and prayer.
6 Having suggested these things to the brethren, you will be a good minister of Yahshua Messiah, having been nourished by the Words of faith, and by the good doctrine which you have followed.
7 But refuse foolish and old-wives tales. And exercise yourself to righteousness.

footnote:5 There are churches today who require a celibate priesthood and also other religions who make food such as eating meat a doctrine in their congregation. Paul is warning against these false unbiblical teachings.
footnote:6 Paul is speaking about clean kosher foods laid out in Leviticus the 11th chapter. Pork and other unclean meats are NOT sanctified by the word of YHWH.
 
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All4Christ

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Mark 1:5 All of Judea, including all the people of Jerusalem, went out to see and hear John. And when they confessed their sins, he baptized them in the Jordan River.

Very often words like "every" and "all" are qualified or have obvious exceptions. For example, do you take Mark 1:5 to mean that there was not a single person in all of Judea who didn't go out to see and hear John, including the people who were deaf or blind? I think it clearly is meaning that a large part of the Judean population went out to see and hear him. If you were staying as a guest in someone's house and they told you that you could eat anything in the fridge, would you understand that to mean that you have permission to eat there shelves and tupperware? Or are those obvious exceptions? I think more often than not "everyone" is qualified to refer to a specific group rather than to refer to every last person on the planet.

So in 1 Timothy 4:3-5, Paul was was talking about everything that that belongs to the category of foods that are to be received with thanksgiving that have been sanctified by the word of God and prayer. It is the category of clean foods in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 that the word "broma" is used to refer to, that God instructed to be received with thanksgiving, and that the word of God sanctifies. In 1 Timothy 3:4, "everything" and "nothing" are both qualified by the word "if", so he is again talking in regard to if it belongs to this category, not in regard to everything that can be eaten. If you don't think that a cannibal should interpret this verse as saying that it was fine to eat human flesh as long as they gave thanks for it, then you should not impose your understanding of the category of food onto this verse, but rather you should look at the context of what things Jews considered to be food, namely what is given as food in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14.



Sinning in order to reach people with the Gospel would undermine the Gospel itself. I didn't say anything about losing your salvation if you ate pork.

It is a sin for us to kill people or to condone killing people, so the real sin in cannabalism is the murder of human beings.

Survival cannabalism is also obviously wrong, as human beings are made in God's image. Human life, throughout scripture, is sacred. It's not the same situation as pork or shrimp.
 
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giftofGod2

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I believe that by the time Paul wrote 1 Timothy, the gospel of Mark was accepted as the word of the Lord.

Therefore when it says that every creature, as a food, is sanctified by the word of God and prayer, it was well-known that Jesus had spoken the words (recorded in Mark 7:14-23, esp. Mark 7:19) that nothing entering into a man from without can defile him (thus purging all meats, KJV--or, thus declaring all foods clean, NIV).

Soyeong, it is no longer a sin to eat animals that in the OT were deemed "unclean". Three times the voice of the Lord said to Peter, "What God hath cleansed, call not thou common." (Acts 10:9-16, Acts 11:4-10). He may have indeed been referring to God's acceptance of the Gentiles alone, but don't you think that in this God was accepting the Gentiles eating practices and all?

This food issue is parallel to the issue of circumcision in Acts 15:1-21 and all of Galatians. It amounts to trusting in the law to save you. The Gentiles were accepted of God, and God did not first require them to be circumcised, neither to change their eating practices: He purified their hearts by faith, filling them with the Holy Ghost. Acts 15:8-9.

In Acts 15 we have the account of how Paul and Barnabas fought hard to preserve the integrity of the gospel against those who would require the Gentiles to be circumcised and keep the law (which has included in it Leviticus 11 and Deuteronoy 14). After hearing them out, Peter said, Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke on the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus we shall be saved, even as they.

The entire book of Galatians also teaches us against this idea of trusting in the law to save us and salvation-by-circumcision-plus-keeping-the-law. In Galatians 5:3-4 specifically, it is written, For I testify again, to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Paul is not there saying that if you were circumcised as a baby or even later circumcised, that you cannot be a recipient of grace. It is your attitude that matters. If you have been circumcised, don't put your trust in circumcision and law-keeping, and you will be a recipient of grace once again. Paul said in Galatians 5:6, For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision avaieth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. In the epstle to the Philipppians, very likely written after Galatians, Paul says, Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Philippians 3:2-3. Paul tells us by this that he himself is circumcised and in this he redefines who is truly the circumcision group by including them in the body of Christ as those who are circumcised but who trust that circumcision (eating practices also) is not their salvation.

And as I said before, this issue of food is parallel to that of circumcision because circumcision in its essence is an effort to bring believers who have been set free back under bondage to the laws of the Old Testament. See also Galatians 5:1.

In the New Testament, Christ is our salvation, not our dietary practices. Dietary practices weren't even salvation in the Old Testament. The law was never intended to save us, and it has never been able to. For Paul also said in Galatians 3:21, Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. Which goes to show that righteousness does not come by the law and that there has been no law given that could impart life to a man. As it is also written, (Galatians 2:21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
 
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Soyeong

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It is a sin for us to kill people or to condone killing people, so the real sin in cannabalism is the murder of human beings.

Survival cannabalism is also obviously wrong, as human beings are made in God's image. Human life, throughout scripture, is sacred. It's not the same situation as pork or shrimp.

While murdering another person in order to eat them is often associated with cannibalism, it is not a necessary part of it because it is about eating human flesh. A cannibal can conceivably go to a busy hospital where people regularly die and want to make use of the corpses.
 
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All4Christ

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While murdering another person in order to eat them is often associated with cannibalism, it is not a necessary part of it because it is about eating human flesh. A cannibal can conceivably go to a busy hospital where people regularly die and want to make use of the corpses.

True, which is why I added the part about survival cannibalism :) Scripture treats bodies with respect, even after death. Precedence in the Early Christian Church - as well as scripture - shows that we must respect the body as well, especially considering the resurrection. Also, we are taught that our bodies are a temple of God...which requires respect.

The New Testament stories of Lazarus (John 11:44), Ananias (Acts 5:6), Dorcas (Acts 9:37) and Jesus (Matthew 27:59, Luke 23:53 and John 19:40) record the practice, confirmed by Jewish historian Josephus, of wrapping the bodies in linen shrouds and perfuming them with various spices, possibly to mask the odor for the mourners during the mourning period.

These are a few reasons why our Tradition (Orthodoxy) does not promote cremation.
 
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Soyeong

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True, which is why I added the part about survival cannibalism :) Scripture treats bodies with respect, even after death. Precedence in the Early Christian Church - as well as scripture - shows that we must respect the body as well, especially considering the resurrection. Also, we are taught that our bodies are a temple of God...which requires respect.

The New Testament stories of Lazarus (John 11:44), Ananias (Acts 5:6), Dorcas (Acts 9:37) and Jesus (Matthew 27:59, Luke 23:53 and John 19:40) record the practice, confirmed by Jewish historian Josephus, of wrapping the bodies in linen shrouds and perfuming them with various spices, possibly to mask the odor for the mourners during the mourning period.

These are a few reasons why our Tradition (Orthodoxy) does not promote cremation.

Some people want others to benefit from their corpse, such as donating it to science or to use it for organ transplants, so it is conceivable that a cannibal could see putting a corpse to use as a way of respecting it rather than letting it burn or rot so that it is wasted. In any case, the point remains that we should not insert our view into the text of the things that we consider to be food, but rather we should consider the context of the things that Jews considered to be food. While a Jew could admit that pork could be eaten, they would not think of it as food in the same way that we don't think of rats, vultures, or corpses as food.
 
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Some people want others to benefit from their corpse, such as donating it to science or to use it for organ transplants, so it is conceivable that a cannibal could see putting a corpse to use as a way of respecting it rather than letting it burn or rot so that it is wasted. In any case, the point remains that we should not insert our view into the text of the things that we consider to be food, but rather we should consider the context of the things that Jews considered to be food. While a Jew could admit that pork could be eaten, they would not think of it as food in the same way that we don't think of rats, vultures, or corpses as food.

They could see it that way, but it is not a scriptural way of handling a body (consumption of a human's body vs respectful handling). Even when a body is used for organ donation, it should be treated with respect.

We can agree to disagree on this, but I don't believe cannabalism is anywhere near the same situation as the food forbidden based on the commands in the Old Testament.

I don't want to take the conversation far out of the context of the discussion though.

I am curious as to what determines the scriptural commands that you follow, vs the scriptural commands you do not, based on Old Testament commands (honest question).

For example, do you follow the commands in Leviticus 15 (both the commands for men and for women)?
 
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Soyeong

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Soyeong, Leviticus 11 is cancelled as far as the believer in Christ is concerned.

So are Psalms 119:142 and 2 Timothy 3:15-17 wrong? At the time Timothy was a infant, the only Scriptures that had been written yet were OT Scriptures, so Paul was primarily saying that God's law is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. Furthermore, according to Deuteronomy 13:4-6, the way to tell that someone was a false prophet was if they taught God's people against doing what He had commanded, even if they performed performed signs and wonders, so God's law was given as the standard of truth. According to Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised for apply this standard by testing everything Paul said against OT Scripture to see if what he said was true. If Paul had tried telling them that Leviticus 11 was cancelled, then they would have known that he was a false prophet and rightfully disregarded what he said instead of accepting it.

We are no longer under the law (Romans 6:14) are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19) and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6).

In Romans 6:8-14, the law that we are no longer under has to do with sin and death no longer having dominion over us, so the law that we are not under is the law of sin and death. In Romans 7:12-Romans 8:2, Paul said that God's law was holy, righteous, and good, that it was the good that he sought to do and delighted in doing, but contrasted that with a law of sin and death that was working within him to cause him to not do the good that he wanted to do, so the law of sin and death is the opposite of God's law. God has no need to deliver us from obeying His instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good, nor should we even want to be delivered from them, but rather we should likewise day delight in obeying God's law by faith (Psalms 1:1-2, Romans 7:22).

In the Romans 7:1-4, Paul was not using an analogy where everything in the example is represented by something else, but rather he said he was speaking to those who knew the law, so he was using an example from the law to illustrate his point. We can't be represented by the woman because we are dying to the law and it is her husband that died and we can be represented by the man because we are the ones who are set free to belong to another. When the woman's husband died she wasn't set free from the law so that she could now freely commit murder any do everything else the law prohibited, but rather she was only set free from the aspect of the law that would penalize her if she were to live with another man while her husband was still alive. If we are dead to the law, then it can't penalize us, so being dead to the law is not a status of being free from obeying it, but a status of being free from its condemnation, which is the point that Paul was concluding from in Romans 8:1. In Romans 7:6, is specifies that we died to that which held us captive, so it is again referring to the condemnation of the law, not to its holy, righteous, and good instructions. God's law is a law of liberty (Psalms 119:145, James 1:25) and it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in captivity.

It is also true that the handwriting of the old testament ordinances that were against us have been blotted out and taken away, having been nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14).

What was nailed to crosses were the charges against someone (Mark 15:26), not the law itself, so they didn't have to legislate new laws every time someone was crucified. This fits perfectly with the concept of Messiah being our kinsman redeemer who died on the cross for the penalty of our sins and to set us free from captivity to sin, but does not fit at all with him dying to redeem us from the law. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Messiah gave himself to redeem us from the law, but from lawlessness.

Also He has abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (Ephesians 2:15).

In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, it refers to OT Scriptures as being profitable for equipping us to do every good work, so does it make sense to you to say in Ephesians 2:10 that we are made new creations in Messiah for the purpose of doing good works and then a few verses later say that Messiah abolished his instructions for how to do good works? Rather, what he abolished were man-made ordinances, such as mentioned in Acts 10:28 that forbade Jews from visiting or associating with Gentiles, which were actually against God's word (Leviticus 19:34). We should be careful not to mistake something that was against obeying man's laws and being against obeying God's commands.

This is not to say that Jesus came to destroy the law or the prophets, He came not to destroy but to fulfill. But they are fulfilled, not by a focus on them but by the fact of us being filled with the Holy Ghost, by whom the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts; and through this love the spirit of the law is fulfilled. We are no longer bound by the letter of the OT requirements.

Romans 15:18-19 For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, 19 by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ;

In these verses, fulfilling the gospel does not refer to doing away with it or to making it no longer binding, but rather it refers to fully teaching obedience to it. Similarly, in Matthew 5:17, fulfilling the law does not mean to make it no longer binding, but rather it refers to fully teaching how to understand and obey it, which is precisely what Messiah then proceeded to do in the rest of the chapter. Your understanding of fulfilling the law is essentially the same as abolishing it, which Messiah contrasted with fulfilling it.

Jesus also said that nothing that enters a man from without can defile him (and in doing this He declared all foods clean-see Mark 7:19 NIV)

The context of Mark 7 is a discussion with Pharisees about whether people could be defiled by eating food with unwashed hands (Mark 7:1-4) and at no point did the conversation jump from being about a man-made ritual purity law to being about God's dietary laws, so Messiah was just countering the man-made law. His statement at the end of the conversation in the parallel account in Matthew 15:20 confirms that he was still talking about not being defiled by eating with unwashed hands.

Mark 7:19 is a rather difficult passage to translate because there is no "thus he declared" in the Greek, and a number of translations do not say that he declared all foods clean. However, even if I were to grant that is correctly translated, it would still not support God's dietary laws being done away with. For starters, when one Jew is talking to other Jews about food, they are not talking about the things that we consider to be food, but the things that God gave them to as food in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14, so eating pork would never have even come to their minds. However, even if I were to grant that they were talking about everything that could be eaten, including human flesh, the word translated as "clean" is only used in the context of ritual purity, so at most he was saying that all foods were ritually clean, which is again in line with the context of the discussion.

Messiah had just finished calling the Pharisees hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God, so if he had set aside God's dietary laws just a few verses later, then that would have made him an even bigger hypocrite. Furthermore, doing that would put him in violation of Deuteronomy 13, which would have made him a false prophet and disqualified him from being the Messiah. According to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add or subtract from God's law, so he would have also been sinning, which would again disqualify him from being the Messiah and mean that he was in just as much of a need of a savior from his sins as everyone else. It would have given his critics for once a legitimate reason to stone him and they wouldn't have needed to find false witnesses at his trial, but they didn't even seem to notice that he made such a radical statement. Doing away with the commands of God would have been a major doctrinal issue, not something relegated to a parenthetical side statement.

We were once married to the OT law, and it was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. But after faith comes, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. We died and thus our marriage to the law was disanulled, so that we could enter into a relationship with Him who is risen from the dead. See Galatians 3:21-25, Romans 7:1-6.

Do you hold the view that the law was only given to Jews and not to Gentiles? If so, then that is inconsistent with the view that Messiah came to free Gentiles from the law because he didn't need to come to free them from something that they were never given in the first place. Having no more need for a teacher is not the same as having no more need to follow what they taught you. When someone graduates from first grade to second grade, they come under a new teacher, but does the teacher tell them to forget everything they learned in first grade so that they can start fresh or does the teacher build upon what they were previously taught? The Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so we have a superior teacher who can give us a superior understanding of how to do what is holy, righteous, and good, but that is still in accordance with God's law. In addition, the only way for there to be a superior way of doing what is holy, righteous, and good is if there is a superior God because God's instructions for how to do so are based on His holiness, righteousness, and goodness.
 
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Soyeong

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They could see it that way, but it is not a scriptural way of handling a body (consumption of a human's body vs respectful handling). Even when a body is used for organ donation, it should be treated with respect.

We can agree to disagree on this, but I don't believe cannabalism is anywhere near the same situation as the food forbidden based on the commands in the Old Testament.

I don't want to take the conversation far out of the context of the discussion though.

I am curious as to what determines the scriptural commands that you follow, vs the scriptural commands you do not, based on Old Testament commands (honest question).

For example, do you follow the commands in Leviticus 15 (both the commands for men and for women)?

I agree that cannibalism is the same thing as God's dietary laws, but again it talking about what category we should think about when a Jew talks about food.

In the OT, some of the laws were for the King, High Priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, widows, people living the the land, strangers living among them, and for everyone. Messiah lived in perfect obedience to the law, but not even he was able to obey the laws that were in regard to women, so determining which laws apply to you should be done with careful study and prayer. Laws also have certain conditions under which they apply, such as California State laws applying only to people in California, parking laws applying only during certain hours, or the law to keep the Sabbath applying only when it is the 7th day. So I think saying that the condition under which a law applies is not met is different from saying that we do not have to obey it or that it has been done away with. As such, I think a condition under which the laws in regard to temple practice apply, such as those in Leviticus 15, is that there is a temple in which to practice them. When Israel was in exile in Babylon, the condition for their return was to turn back to obedience to God's law, which included keeping laws that required access to the temple, so doing what they were able to obey was counted by God as full obedience. Offerings at the temple did not stop with the death, resurrection, or ascension of Messiah, but rather they they continued up until the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and the only reason why they stopped is because there is no longer a temple in which to do them. Paul continued to make offerings, including sin offerings, when he took a Nazarite vow in Acts 18:18 (Numbers 6) and he was going to pay for the offerings of others in Acts 21:20-24 in order to show that he continued to live in obedience to the law. The Bible prophecies a time when a third temple will be built and when offerings will resume (Ezekiel 44-46), which will also include sin offerings.
 
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I agree that cannibalism is the same thing as God's dietary laws, but again it talking about what category we should think about when a Jew talks about food.

In the OT, some of the laws were for the King, High Priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, widows, people living the the land, strangers living among them, and for everyone. Messiah lived in perfect obedience to the law, but not even he was able to obey the laws that were in regard to women, so determining which laws apply to you should be done with careful study and prayer. Laws also have certain conditions under which they apply, such as California State laws applying only to people in California, parking laws applying only during certain hours, or the law to keep the Sabbath applying only when it is the 7th day. So I think saying that the condition under which a law applies is not met is different from saying that we do not have to obey it or that it has been done away with. As such, I think a condition under which the laws in regard to temple practice apply, such as those in Leviticus 15, is that there is a temple in which to practice them. Offerings at the temple did not stop with the death, resurrection, or ascension of Messiah, but rather they they continued up until the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and the only reason why they stopped is because there is no longer a temple in which to do them. Paul continued to make offerings, including sin offerings, when he took a Nazarite vow in Acts 18:18 (Numbers 6) and he was going to pay for the offerings of others in Acts 21:20-24 in order to show that he continued to live in obedience to the law. The Bible prophecies a time when a third temple will be built and when offerings will resume (Ezekiel 44-46), which also include sin offerings.
Even if you take out the parts about sacrifices, there are many other parts to the laws listed there. I understand that not all laws apply to everyone, since not everyone is the same gender, position, etc. - but these laws addressed to women applied to all women, and these laws addressed to men applied to all men. The scripture in Leviticus 15 discusses breaking objects that touch females during their menstruation cycle, keeping to themselves for periods of time, other people not being in contact with them, etc. There are quite a few things more than just the sacrifices. So do you ignore sections of the OT scripture, just because a portion of the scripture talks about the temple?
 
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