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1 God + 1 God + 1 God = 1 God, not 3 Gods?

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by walkingwiththeLORD, Jun 1, 2016.

  1. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Maybe you missed my response to you, so I'll say it again for you.

    Jesus was talking about His character, His perfection, the truth of His Words and teachings. It was the perfection and truth that were and are of the Father, not physicalness. For all humans had the same physical characteristics, ie. eyes, nose, mouth, hair, legs, arms, ect that Jesus had.

    If it was about physical characteristics anyone could have said they were like the Father, but no one can because it is not about physical characteristics. Give that some serious thought.
     
  2. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    You say: Only if you limit existence to material existence. Scripture and the Christian Church don't, so neither do I.

    Jesus is still a material being. The bible declares this. So your scripture support is unsupportable. The Christian church is out of touch with the scriptures, therefore your confusion.

    You say: Jesus is a human being.

    Jesus is not a mortal human being anymore. Jesus is a resurrected, immortal, glorified, exalted man. But his form is still material, being flesh and bone and spirit. I guarantee that because Jesus is still material, his Father, being of the same substance as Jesus, is material also. The Father has a spirit, but it is housed in a body of flesh and bone, just like His Son Jesus Christ.

    You say: No, it says God is Spirit, and that He is invisible and dwells in unapproachable light.

    The older translations of the bible say, God is "a" spirit. The newer translations of the bible say, God is spirit.
    Do you know what the difference is between "a" spirit and spirit? "a" spirit gives the impression of being in 1 place in time and space. Where just plain spirit gives the impression of being everywhere all of the time. That is how doctrine changes over time, through the different translations of the bible. God has "a" spirit, and it is housed in a material body of flesh and bone. So is the Son. It makes sense, since they are in a Godhead and are made of the same substance. That substance is flesh and bone and spirit.

    God is certainly not invisible, like the invisible man. He is invisible because he chooses to be not seen very often. Since He has been seen, although rarely, (Acts 7:56)and has been at certain biblical events, although rarely, (Mat. 3:17 & Mark 9:7) he does not always dwell in an unapproachable light.

    You say: It doesn't, except in the case of Jesus who is a human being.

    So you are saying the Father can be everywhere, but not the Son? This is not a good position to take.

    You say: Only if one assumes your premise that immaterial means non-existent, a premise you haven't even tried to demonstrate but have merely assumed, and which I reject. Your conclusion therefore does not follow.

    Well if it is not made of anything, non-material, and has no form, or shape, has no body, parts, or passions, no smell, is invisable, these are descriptions of a non-existent being. Now add to that confusion, that He is everywhere, it presents a curious, unbiblical being that somehow we are to know and love. Hope that works for you.

    You say: "So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire," (Deuteronomy 4:15)

    I'll see your scripture and raise you with my scripture:
    Exodus 24:10
    And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

    Notice God has feet. How many more scriptures describe the sightings of God. Many.

    My idea of God, is far more bible oriented than what you have described.
     
  3. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Then who did Moses see in Exodus 24:10?
     
  4. withwonderingawe

    withwonderingawe Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Oh it's all over the place, it is saturated with Gods a plenty!
    Gen 1
    "And the Eohim/Gods said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ....So God created man in his own image, in the image of the Gods created he him; male and female created he them."

    Gen 3
    And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

    Ps 82
    1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
    6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

    Deut 32 RSV This passage explains what the original belief/truth was
    7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations; ask your father, and he will show you; your elders, and they will tell you.
    8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
    9 For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.

    and we will add in Heb 1 which is quoting Ps 45

    8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    Abraham to Moses well up until around 600 bc this was all understood as truth.

    According to Hebrew very ancient (true) myths there were 70 sons of El. Yahweh was the firstborn and he was chosen above his fellows. He was anointed God by his God, his title was Lord of host, Lord of lords and God of gods. Which meant he was over all the other sons of God. The nations of the earth were divided up between these lesser gods to be their mediators between them and Yahweh. All but for Jacob's family the nations were two steps away from El, first they would petition their son of God, this lesser son would petition Yahweh and he then would petition El. Yahweh as Lord of host was mediator between the seventy sons and El. This is what was going on in Job 1 when the sons of El come to present themselves before Yahweh. Satan also comes among the sons of El.

    Now comes in my own speculations, Satan wasn't directly kick out of heaven. We see him in Job 1 and in Zach 3 doing his calling of giving opposition. But, as time went on he became more and more envious. He too want to be worshiped and so did these other 70 sons. Thus the war in heaven increased and they stopped going to present themselves before Yahweh, idol worship began because these rebellious sons led the hearts of men astray.

    Now as we look at Isa 43 we can see it in a different light;

    9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
    10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
    11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

    The Lord is referring to this witnesses or the other sons of God and saying show us how they can justify, let them come forth and show their power. They can't for I alone was appointed or ordained God, there is no saviour beside me.

    and then he says
    25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
    26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.

    If there is no other God then to whom is he pleading? As the mediator he pleads our case for us to the Father El.

    In Hebrew tradition no one can declare their own authority including Yahweh. We see at the baptism of Jesus here the Father says 'This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased'. We find this also in Isa 42 when and unnamed voices but we must logically assume is the Father declares;

    1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
    2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
    3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
    4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law

    And then Yahweh declares his authority;

    5 ¶Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

    In these passages we see all three members of the Godhead, El the Father, Yahweh and the Spirit. There are also indications that Shadday a female Goddess was worshiped and not as an idol but as a very real God.

    "Even by the El of thy father, who shall help thee; and by Shadday, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb" Gen 49. Her symbol of a tree which give live was placed in the Temple by Solomon and left there until after the Jews returned from exile.

    Around 600bc and then after their return there began to be a changes. There was a movement called the Deuteronomists, they were a group of scribes and elite Jews who brought back with them from captivity the concept that Yahweh would be their only God. They got Josiah who was only 8 when he began his reign to remove Shadday's symbol from the temple and they merged El and Yahweh into one God. Malachi takes them to task for what they have done, they are not worshiping idols in their temple but they are worshiping a strange god.

    "But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the Lord of hosts.....Have we not all one father? hath not one El created us? Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the Yahweh which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god" Mal 3

    But not all Jews would worship this god, this strange god. Many of the common Jews worshiped Yahweh as the Son of El and they waited for him to come.

    In John 1 we see;

    Nathanael and the other members of John's little group of followers held on to the more ancient doctrines recognized Yahweh and said; Rabbi, thou art the Son of El; thou art the King of Israel.

    Paul was a member of the elite and he persecuted those who taught he was the Son of God until he has his vision ;

    "And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. But all that heard him were amazed,..."

    They were amazed because he left his former beliefs of only Yahweh and accepted Yahweh/Jesus as the Son of El.

    Two Gods not one, two Gods who are one in purpose.
     
  5. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Red herring. I haven't denied the materiality of Jesus.

    Another red herring, I didn't say Jesus was mortal anymore, by His resurrection He has overcome death and is therefore immortal, even as we will be made immortal at the resurrection of the dead at His Parousia.

    The Father isn't a human being. So no. Jesus is of the same substance as the Father, therefore He is God even as the Father is God; but the Father isn't a human being, and therefore does not have a body, of flesh, bone, or anything else.

    John 4:24 begins with the phrase πνεῦμα ὁ θεός (spirit the God), Koine lacks an indefinite article, only having a definite article, though it is not always required (c.f. John 1:1, θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος which lacks the definite article in reference to θεὸς). The reason why "a spirit" would be problematic is that it doesn't exactly fit with the flow of the passage, as it continues τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας αὐτὸν ἐν πνεύματι καὶ ἀληθείᾳ δεῖ προσκυνεῖν, namely ἐν πνεύματι (in spirit). "God is Spirit and the worshipers of Him worship in spirit and truth."

    Also "a spirit" doesn't designate "being in 1 place in time and space", there exists no reason to make that assumption.

    Then your issue is with Scripture. Since it is Scripture which says God is invisible, and that nobody has ever seen Him.

    Nope. I'm saying that the Son became flesh, became a human being.

    And if I were an atheist I might agree with you. But I'm not an atheist.

    We know the love of God through His Son, Romans 5:8, and because He first loved us, we can love in return 1 John 4:19. If you do not know that Christ is sufficient to know the love of God, then I would encourage you to hear the true and faithful Gospel. For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, and Christ came into the world to save sinners. Believe the good news, for it is most certainly true.

    Then isn't it interesting how Scripture says God has no form and no one has ever seen God? Why does God say to Moses, "No one can see me and live"? And show only His "hind parts" to Moses. The manifestation of God's glory is always in part, and it is never God as God, but always some kind of manifestation--a burning bush, pillars of smoke and fire, the "hind parts". The Church calls these theophanies, divine appearances or manifestations--yet even with these we have "No one has ever seen God" because no one ever has, people have only ever seen theophanies, they've seen manifestations, they've encountered angels--but no one has seen God.

    You can assert that of course, but that's demonstrably not true.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  6. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    God in a theophanic sense.

    Tell me, which makes the most sense of the available biblical material: That God has never been seen and that this is contradicted by Moses seeing God's feet and hind parts? Or that God has never been seen, but has manifested Himself in theophanic ways, appearances, as described throughout the Old Testament?

    Your position would require that I believe John 1:18 is a direct contradiction to Exodus 24:10, my position holds that there is no contradiction since what was seen wasn't God as God is, but a manifestation of God--akin to what Moses experienced as the burning bush, or the pillars of fire and smoke, or the angelic visitors who came to Abraham. This seems to be further evidenced by the fact that they saw what appeared as "sapphire" (probably lapis lazuli) like the heavens--this was a profound manifestation of God's glorious presence to be certain, but it was a theophanic experience.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  7. Job8

    Job8 Senior Member

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    Human logic cannot make sense of Divine logic, but that is what you are attempting.

    Take the baptism of Jesus. All three Divine Persons were present at the same time yet distinct. And all three are God.

    It is said in Scripture that Jesus of Nazareth was filled with the Spirit. It is also said that He did His miracles by the power of God. He also said that He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him. He also proclaimed Himself as the great I AM. There is no need to *figure* all this out. Believing is enough. It is God who has figured it all out.
     
  8. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    You say: Take the baptism of Jesus. All three Divine Persons were present at the same time yet distinct. And all three are God.

    You are right, all 3 Divine Persons were present at the same time, and they are distinct. They were absolutely distinct, because all 3 were in 3 different and distinct places at exactly the same time. God the Father was in the heavens talking about His Son. Jesus was coming out of the River Jordan on the earth. The HS was between the Father and the Son for a time until it slowly floated down on Jesus.

    Do you see the true distinct nature that the 3 enjoy?
     
  9. Job8

    Job8 Senior Member

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    Yes, I see that, and I also see that they are still one God. Do you see that? It is not three gods but ONE God.
     
  10. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    According to this baptismal event (Mat. 3:16-17) they have to be 3 distinct and separate Persons, that have such a united purpose that it is as if they are 1 God.

    How can They be 1 God (other than by unity of purpose) when at the baptism The 3 are in 3 different places at exactly the same time? Please explain that phenomena.
     
  11. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    The word "theophany" is a greek word meaning "an appearance of a god to a person". This definition holds except for Christians, who define "theophany" as a manifestation of God to people; a sensible sign by which the presence of God is revealed.

    So the definition has been changed by Christian scholars trying to reconcile the very conflict that you have on your hands. "no man hath seen God", says John, but the bible is full of men seeing God. So to overcome this conflict, you have said, it is not really God they are seeing, it is a theophany of God, referring to a manifestation or projection or a sensible sign by which people know that God is present. But not really God but a representation or replica or projection of God, but not God really.

    I do appreciate your dilemma, and how you are trying to reconcile the scriptures. Personally, I cannot subscribe to the idea that when the scriptures say, "Moses spoke with God, face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend, Moses has done double duty to let us know that he really saw God and spoke to Him. You really have to put your head in the sand to not get it. Some type of projection of God would not speak to you face to face. A reasonable sign that God is present would not speak to you face to face.

    So the face to face issue just makes me look closer at the scriptures in the NT that say, "no man hath seen God at any time"? So Let's look at those scriptures:
    John 1:18
    No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
    John 6:46
    Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

    John is the author of both of these sayings. In John 1:18 he just says that "no man hath seen God at any time".
    But in John 6:46 he added some interesting verbiage. He says that "not that any man hath seen the Father", but then adds the reconciliatory words,
    "save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father".

    So now you have to choose, which scriputure has the true doctrine? One scripture says no man hath seen God, and one says that men of God have seen God.

    So I look at the choice and I see many other scriptures that tell me "men have seen God", and so I choose John 6:46 as the true doctrine.

    You, OTOH choose John 1:18 and square this scriptue with all the scriptures that say, "men have seen God" with your "theophany theory".

    Of course I like my choice because the theophany theory is not very solid to me. God projects some kind of a manifestation of Himself? That does not work for me. I feel that when God approaches man He does it Himself, and he has, as Jacob says, the ability to appear to men without killing them with His presence.
     
  12. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Who do you think the "He which is of God" is?

    I'll give you a hint, it's only one person, His name starts with 'J' and ends with "esus".

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  13. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Also, just as a heads up, when quote mining the Bible it's a good idea to pay attention to what is being said and to take things more holistically rather than merely attempt to argue with isolated, disjointed proof texts.

    "And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them. The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today. The Lord spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire, while I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord. For you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up into the mountain." - Deuteronomy 5:1-5

    It's not Moses who saw God "face to face" but Israel, and yet "out of the midst of the fire" and further, it was said earlier,

    "Then the Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of words, but saw no form; there was only a voice." - Deuteronomy 4:12

    So which was it? The Israelites saw God's actual, physical face? Well no, they experienced the fire that appeared on the mountain, they saw no form, but heard only a voice--this encounter with fire and a voice was what Moses describes as "face to face".

    Did Moses' see God's "face", well no, it's pretty clear from the text in Exodus,

    "And when all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent, all the people would rise up and worship, each at his tent door. Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." - Exodus 33:10-11

    Ah, so Moses did see the face of YHVH, well no:

    "Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”" - ibid. 18-23

    And so Moses experienced a minimal exposure to the divine glory, described figuratively as God's "back" or "hind parts", this itself was enough that we read following:

    "the people of Israel would see the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face was shining. And Moses would put the veil over his face again, until he went in to speak with him." - Exodus 34:35

    Moses was not experiencing the fullness of the divine glory, but only a very small, minimal amount; this was itself enough to cause his face to be so bright that it required that he cover his face with a veil. If Moses had experienced the full measure of God's presence, God's "face", it would have killed him dead.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  14. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What this all goes back to is your own beliefs that God is flesh and bones. Each word and argument is a proof of that in your own mind.

    I don't see the problem with "save which is of God" in the apostles. All of them had been with Jesus Christ, with the holy, perfect one. They had seen the character and perfection of the Father. Yes they had.

    If you do some due diligence, maybe trying to see all sides you might see the error in your own thinking. Context, context, context. It is one of the gospels after all.
     
  15. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    You say: Red herring. I haven't denied the materiality of Jesus.

    Ok, I accept that.

    You say: The Father isn't a human being. So no. Jesus is of the same substance as the Father, therefore He is God even as the Father is God; but the Father isn't a human being, and therefore does not have a body, of flesh, bone, or anything else.

    This is where it gets confusing to me. Jesus is made of a material substance of flesh and bone and spirit (both material and spirit). Jesus also has a nature that is Divine along with his material substance of flesh and bone and spirit. You agree with me about that.

    If Jesus does have a material substance, his Father must also have the same material substance because they are made of the same substance. They both have the same Divine nature, and Their substance is the same material and spirit. It has to be this way. They have to be the same.

    You say: Nope. I'm saying that the Son became flesh, became a human being.

    And in so saying, you have created a difference between the Father and the Son. In the Father's case, he is everywhere because he is spirit. In the Sons case, he has substance that is made up of a material body and spirit. He cannot be everywhere at all times like the Father. This is not a good position, since They are of the same substance and nature.

    You say: And if I were an atheist I might agree with you. But I'm not an atheist.

    Just a little difference. An atheist believes that God does not exit. You believe in a God that is non-existent.
    You at least believe in God.

    You say: We know the love of God through His Son, Romans 5:8, and because He first loved us, we can love in return 1 John 4:19. If you do not know that Christ is sufficient to know the love of God, then I would encourage you to hear the true and faithful Gospel. For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, and Christ came into the world to save sinners. Believe the good news, for it is most certainly true.

    I believe it.

    You say: Then isn't it interesting how Scripture says God has no form and no one has ever seen God? Why does God say to Moses, "No one can see me and live"? And show only His "hind parts" to Moses. The manifestation of God's glory is always in part, and it is never God as God, but always some kind of manifestation--a burning bush, pillars of smoke and fire, the "hind parts". The Church calls these theophanies, divine appearances or manifestations--yet even with these we have "No one has ever seen God" because no one ever has, people have only ever seen theophanies, they've seen manifestations, they've encountered angels--but no one has seen God.

    God does not say, "No one can see me and live", He said, "no one can see my face in full glory and live". Therefore instead of showing Moses His face in full glory, God showed Moses his hind parts as he passed him.

    It is interesting that God had spoken to Moses face to face, but yet makes this statement.
    My conclusion is, the God that was talking to Moses face to face either can show his face at a lower level of glory, but cannot show His face in His full glory, OR there are 2 Gods talking to Moses. One that can show him His face and One that can not.

    You will not find the word "manifestation" in the bible. So when God appears to men, as far as I know, He usually appears as Himself. However, the burning bush seems to be a phenomena that the Lord created, whether He was in the bush or not is up for debate, I think He was. Other phenomena are created by the Lord and he can be in them or not (i.e. pillar of cloud, pillar of smoke, pillar of fire). But these creations are real and are a manifestation of the Lord, but are not the Lord proper. He may be inside the fire, but He is not the fire.
     
  16. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    So which scripture do you choose?

    John 1:18 because you believe that no man has seen God, but only a theophany (not really God)?

    OR

    John 6:46 because you believe that men have seen God?
     
  17. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the heads up.

    You will notice a little different verbiage between Deut. 5:1-5 and Ex. 33:10-11.
    In Deut. Moses is standing between the Lord and the people on a mountain. I think the translators did not do well to use the words "face to face" in this situation, because it is fairly obvious they were not really face to face.
    However, in Ex. we are talking about an entirely different situation. The Lord came down to the tabernacle and had a conversation with Moses personally in the tabernacle. Now in this case it says that the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, (but this time it added these interesting words), "as a man speaketh to his friend".

    I know you feel differently, but first of all, I don't think a little cloud would be able to cover the powerful glory of the Lord, unless the Lord lowered His energy output. Secondly, He not only spoke to Moses "face to face", but in this case He also talked to him, "as a man speaketh to his friend". This verbiage tells me Moses saw his face, and literally spoke to Him face to face.

    In Deut. 4:12 it says that the people and Moses did not see the "form" of God. Is that because He has no "form", or is that because His "form" was covered by the fire around His "form"? In Ex. 33:18-23 (KJV) we find that God does have a "form" because it mentions that God has at least a face, hands, and back parts, which are part of His "form".
     
  18. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    First of all, in Deuteronomy 5:4 the expression is פָּנִים בְּפָנִים panim b-panim (face to face). In Exodus 33:11, the expression is פָּנִים אֶל־פָּנִים panim 'el panim (face unto face). So no, the translators did fine.

    So in this regard my point still stands.

    God is also described as having wings, being a strong tower, and a rock. So there's that.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  19. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Try John 1:1-14, it is the Logos (the Son) who became flesh and dwelt among us. The Son became flesh, became a human being. The Logos became a human being in the womb of the Blessed Virgin. In becoming man that meant He was comprised of atoms, molecules the same stuff we are, He became flesh and blood, He developed in the womb of Mary the same as you and I.

    This is the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union.

    "Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us." - Definition of Chalcedon, 451 AD

    Again, the Hypostatic Union. In the Incarnation there is a full union of the Divine and human, and so Jesus Christ is simultaneously both. Being in every way God and in every way human, with all of the limitlessness of being God and all the limits of being man.

    St. Ignatius of Antioch in his epistle to the Ephesians writes,
    "There is one Physician,
    Of both flesh and spirit;
    At once made and not made;
    God in the flesh;
    True life in death;
    At once of Mary and of God;
    First passible and also impassible;
    Even Jesus Christ our Lord.
    "

    This is the Mystery of the Incarnation: He who cannot suffer, can suffer; He who cannot be born, is born; He who uncreated, is made; He who is above all the angels was made a little lower than the angels; He who created the universe suckled at Mary's breast; He who cannot die, died.

    What could not be, was.

    That would be a distinction without a difference. "God does not exist" and "God is non-existent" are identical statements. Neither of which apply to what I believe.

    And yet you fight it.

    Well, after perusing over a dozen translations they all definitely say "No one can see Me and live" or alternatively "No man can see Me and live".

    So I guess it's back to the Hebrew again,

    וַיֹּאמֶר לֹא תוּכַל לִרְאֹת אֶת־פָּנָי כִּי לֹֽא־יִרְאַנִי הָאָדָם
    way·yō·mer lō ṯū·ḵal lir·’ōṯ ’eṯ- pā·nāy; kî lō- yir·’a·nî hā·’ā·ḏām wā·ḥāy.
    He-said not able see [] face; for not see the-human live
    "He said 'You cannot see My face; for a human cannot see Me and live'"

    Or, it's a figurative description.

    φανερόω
    49 occurrences in the New Testament alone.
    http://biblehub.com/greek/5319.htm

    And yet they are described as being God. Indeed frequently the "Angel of the LORD" acts as an intermediating agency through which God manifests Himself and is treated as being God Himself, that is the case where Jacob wrestles with God, that is the case with the burning bush, and that is the case with Abraham's guests. This makes sense if for the ancient Hebrews their God was understood as unapproachable, invisible, and formless--the manifesting presence and experience of God would be understood as an agency of some sort, which is frequently described as the מַלְאָךְ יהוה (malakh YHVH), the "Messenger of YHVH" or, on account of its translation in the Greek of the LXX, the "Angel of the Lord" (ἄγγελος κυρίου). Which Christian theologians have long identified as descriptive of God's Theophanic presence, that is the Malakh YHVH is YHVH expressed through Theophany; and is often thought to be in some sense the pre-incarnate Logos, and therefore Christ.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  20. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,006
    Christian
    Single
    I disbelieve it because I think it just sounds ridiculous for starters. Never even paid enough attention to the trinity to even know what it was till I came here, where much to my surprise, I find the site technically doesn't even consider me a Christian because of my disbelief in it. Man made it up and no offense to the site but that's what happens when man gets his "I'm so smart and holy, I/we will write the rules and others that want to be smart and holy will eat it up hook line and sinker." little hands on things he has no business messing with. And I know the site didn't invent the trinity, I'm talking about those who did. Wonder if they were of Pharisee decent?

    I never once heard Jesus mention he was God, and I seriously doubt Jesus and God even discuss who is the boss, or exactly what the order is that people seem to find so important.... The "I'm so holy" seekers of Higher Knowledge should sometimes just leave well enough alone.

    Jesus is Gods son, just as men have sons, they aren't physically the same entity but they are the same in thought. But nooo, we have to complicate the simple.

    First off what is wrong with people that they even have to come up with this stuff and then to turn around and find something that's not even biblical so important you can't even be a Christian unless you believe it. Shame.

    Sorry, but you did ask. :)
     
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