1 God + 1 God + 1 God = 1 God, not 3 Gods?

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,785
Pacific Northwest
✟728,115.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Well it could mean that both the man and the woman are in the image of God. I mean there are times when I see someone walking down the street I wonder if it was a boy or a girl. Maybe God made us different in a few areas and that was enough to describe mankind.

Or, for your consideration, the image of God has nothing to do with human anatomy, biology, or form. It instead has to do with the fact that we bear the divine image as creatures who are supposed to represent God in creation, and thus God gave humans dominion over the earth, to care for it, to reflect God's majesty, goodness, compassion, love, etc into the world. Because the narrative of creation is about God creating His temple--heaven and earth--where He wishes to dwell; and He has created mankind and put us here to be His image-bearing creature to reflect Himself into creation. The purpose of which is fully realized in Christ, and ultimately we see the consummation of God's creative purposes in the penultimate chapter of the Apocalypse where in renewing and restoring the entirety of creation there is a marriage between heaven and earth represented by the new Jerusalem descending, and God shall dwell with man on the earth: He being our God and we His people, and ever shall it be, world without end.

It's not about God creating physical copies of Himself, but creating a people to bear Himself within creation and ultimately establishing all of creation as the place where God shall dwell. The images of the Tabernacle and the Temple pointing us to the reality of Christ, and the Church, and ultimately what God intends for all things--as we read in the Apocalypse there is no need for a temple since full and glorious presence of God will fill all things.

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,

'See, the home of God is among mortals.
He will dwell with them;
they will be his peoples,
and God himself will be with them;
he will wipe every tear from their eyes.
Death will be no more;
mourning and crying and pain will be no more,
for the first things have passed away.'

And the one who was seated on the throne said, 'See, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true.' Then he said to me, 'It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give water as a gift from the spring of the water of life. Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children.'
" - Revelation 21:1-7

"I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God is its light, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. Its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. People will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations." - Revelation 21:22-26

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

fatboys

Senior Veteran
Nov 18, 2003
9,231
280
70
✟53,575.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Or, for your consideration, the image of God has nothing to do with human anatomy, biology, or form. It instead has to do with the fact that we bear the divine image as creatures who are supposed to represent God in creation, and thus God gave humans dominion over the earth, to care for it, to reflect God's majesty, goodness, compassion, love, etc into the world. Because the narrative of creation is about God creating His temple--heaven and earth--where He wishes to dwell; and He has created mankind and put us here to be His image-bearing creature to reflect Himself into creation. The purpose of which is fully realized in Christ, and ultimately we see the consummation of God's creative purposes in the penultimate chapter of the Apocalypse where in renewing and restoring the entirety of creation there is a marriage between heaven and earth represented by the new Jerusalem descending, and God shall dwell with man on the earth: He being our God and we His people, and ever shall it be, world without end.

It's not about God creating physical copies of Himself, but creating a people to bear Himself within creation and ultimately establishing all of creation as the place where God shall dwell. The images of the Tabernacle and the Temple pointing us to the reality of Christ, and the Church, and ultimately what God intends for all things--as we read in the Apocalypse there is no need for a temple since full and glorious presence of God will fill all things.

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,

'See, the home of God is among mortals.
He will dwell with them;
they will be his peoples,
and God himself will be with them;
he will wipe every tear from their eyes.
Death will be no more;
mourning and crying and pain will be no more,
for the first things have passed away.'

And the one who was seated on the throne said, 'See, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true.' Then he said to me, 'It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give water as a gift from the spring of the water of life. Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children.'
" - Revelation 21:1-7

"I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God is its light, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. Its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. People will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations." - Revelation 21:22-26

-CryptoLutheran
Man you write really really well. It is always educational to read your thoughts. Let me ask you this. How do you judge what you believe is perhaps literal and what could be figurative?
 
Upvote 0

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Except the image and likeness has nothing to do with what we look like.

Or, if you prefer to think like that, does that mean God has both a penis and a vagina?

"So God created humankind in his image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them." - Genesis 1:27

So God, both penis and vagina then?

-CryptoLutheran
You say: Except the image and likeness has nothing to do with what we look like.

You are exactly in denial, because you can not bring yourself to admit that God is like us. (only far far advanced than us). How much more plain can He be. He creates the earth, the sun, the heavens, the plants, the animals, and then when it is time to create us, He says, let Us create man in our image and in our likeness. How much more plain can God be to help you understand what He is like.

It is just like Jesus when an apostle asked him to show them the Father. And Jesus said, have I been with you so long, if you see me, you see the Father. Not because they were one and the same, but because the Father looks just like Jesus. So that is what he was telling them, that you are seeing the Father because we are Father/Son twins, so don't ask again. And that means that if the Father is the express image of Jesus (Heb. 1:3).

IOW if you stood Them side by side, and came up and shook Their hands and gave Them a hug, you could not tell who the Father was or who the Son was. This hearkens back to Gen. 1:26, God even made His Son, not only in His image and His likeness, but in His exact image, and His exact likeness.

If God has a head, a torso, 2 arms, and 2 legs, and 10 toes, and 10 fingers, and 2 eyes, and a nose, and 2ears, and a mouth, it is logical that he would have a p.... Since God is a Glorified, Exalted Man, it logically follows that He does not have a v..... Think about it, and I am sure you will come to the same conclusion.

Although some Christians believe that God the Father has both primal instincts, to sire as well as the ability to carry His offspring into existence. I do not believe these things myself, but some do. Since you made the statement, do you believe this concept?
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,785
Pacific Northwest
✟728,115.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Since you made the statement, do you believe this concept?

God doesn't have a penis, a vagina, a nose, two arms, any fingers, eyes, etc. Because God has no form, no shape, is immaterial, unfathomable, and everywhere.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,790
✟322,365.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
You say: Except the image and likeness has nothing to do with what we look like.

You are exactly in denial, because you can not bring yourself to admit that God is like us. (only far far advanced than us). How much more plain can He be. He creates the earth, the sun, the heavens, the plants, the animals, and then when it is time to create us, He says, let Us create man in our image and in our likeness. How much more plain can God be to help you understand what He is like.

It is just like Jesus when an apostle asked him to show them the Father. And Jesus said, have I been with you so long, if you see me, you see the Father. Not because they were one and the same, but because the Father looks just like Jesus. So that is what he was telling them, that you are seeing the Father because we are Father/Son twins, so don't ask again. And that means that if the Father is the express image of Jesus (Heb. 1:3).

IOW if you stood Them side by side, and came up and shook Their hands and gave Them a hug, you could not tell who the Father was or who the Son was. This hearkens back to Gen. 1:26, God even made His Son, not only in His image and His likeness, but in His exact image, and His exact likeness.

If God has a head, a torso, 2 arms, and 2 legs, and 10 toes, and 10 fingers, and 2 eyes, and a nose, and 2ears, and a mouth, it is logical that he would have a p.... Since God is a Glorified, Exalted Man, it logically follows that He does not have a v..... Think about it, and I am sure you will come to the same conclusion.

Although some Christians believe that God the Father has both primal instincts, to sire as well as the ability to carry His offspring into existence. I do not believe these things myself, but some do. Since you made the statement, do you believe this concept?
Jesus was talking about his perfect life and everything that He does is perfect as the Father would do.

If it were about the physical being, anyone would be like the Father. Think about that. :scratch: It wouldn't have had to be Jesus. Sometimes good ole fashioned common sense.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,785
Pacific Northwest
✟728,115.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Man you write really really well. It is always educational to read your thoughts. Let me ask you this. How do you judge what you believe is perhaps literal and what could be figurative?

Literary genre is a helpful indicator. The historic voice of the Church is helpful as well. Considering how a text is framed is likewise a good indicator.

What's most important is that I'm not working on my own, but working from within a larger history and community of people engaging the texts from many different fields and perspectives. The chief purpose of analyzing the text ought to be what the text is actually saying--what the author(s) meant and how it would have been understood by its original recipients.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Like
Reactions: ToBeLoved
Upvote 0

JoeP222w

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2015
3,358
1,748
55
✟77,175.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God doesn't have a penis, a vagina, a nose, two arms, any fingers, eyes, etc. Because God has no form, no shape, is immaterial, unfathomable, and everywhere.

-CryptoLutheran

So by your statement you deny Jesus Christ is God and that would be heresy.
 
Upvote 0

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
So who created the elements? Who created creation from the start, the Big Bang where nothing became something?

Why not explain how things happened then from the 'real' beginning where ever that is.

Since the elements can not be destroyed, and can not go out of existence, it follows that they also had no beginning. We know that Jesus commanded the elements. We know that by his word, the elements obeyed and the earth and the universe rolled into existence. That is because Jesus was known for his sinlessness and was respected by the elements and so they obeyed him, not only in the creation, but while he was on earth during his ministry. BTW he also told his apostles they would do greater things than he would do, which means that if they were worthy to command the elements, they could do that too.

Interesting relationship between a Glorified, Exalted Man and the elements of the universe, isn't it?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Would you follow the reply and conversation. He is asking a question of Mormons.

Why would you talk to another Christian like that?
So do Christians believe God is nothing? That's what immaterial is, zero.

BTW, if you are a bible student, the bible says that God has a eyes, and mouth, and hands etc.

Why are you disagreeing with the bible?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
God doesn't have a penis, a vagina, a nose, two arms, any fingers, eyes, etc. Because God has no form, no shape, is immaterial, unfathomable, and everywhere.

-CryptoLutheran
God has no form, no shape, is immaterial, unfathomable, and everywhere. Sounds like you believe in a
non-existent God.

5 points about God to think about:
1) The bible declares Jesus has form.

2) The bible declares Jesus has shape.

3) The bible does not say, God is "immaterial".

4) The bible does not say, God is "unfathomable".

5) God is everywhere, but this is where you get confused. How can the bible say that God is everywhere and at the same time say God has a body of flesh and bone and spirit. Wow, what a contradiction. So to end the contradiction you go all the way to "immaterial" and pretty much eliminate God altogether. Throw out those scriptures that say men have seen God, throw them all out, they are obviously wrong.
But the bible is right. God in His perfect, resurrected, immortal, exalted body of flesh and bone and spirit can sit on His throne and at the same time influence the entire universe with His light, and His spririt, which eminate from Him to fill the immensities of space.

I just want you to know that the bible says that God is the "living God". He calls Himself the "living God" because he does actually live. If He is a living entity, then He is not immaterial, and He is not unfathomable, He does have form, he does have shape.
So:
He can see you with His eyes. You can see Him too.
You can touch Him, and still see the wounds in His hands and feet and side.
You can pray to Him and He will hear your prayers with His ears.

God is truely wonderful, I love Him because He lives and is real, and He loves me too.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,790
✟322,365.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Since the elements can not be destroyed, and can not go out of existence, it follows that they also had no beginning. We know that Jesus commanded the elements. We know that by his word, the elements obeyed and the earth and the universe rolled into existence. That is because Jesus was known for his sinlessness and was respected by the elements and so they obeyed him, not only in the creation, but while he was on earth during his ministry. BTW he also told his apostles they would do greater things than he would do, which means that if they were worthy to command the elements, they could do that too.

Interesting relationship between a Glorified, Exalted Man and the elements of the universe, isn't it?
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,790
✟322,365.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Since the elements can not be destroyed, and can not go out of existence, it follows that they also had no beginning. We know that Jesus commanded the elements. We know that by his word, the elements obeyed and the earth and the universe rolled into existence. That is because Jesus was known for his sinlessness and was respected by the elements and so they obeyed him, not only in the creation, but while he was on earth during his ministry. BTW he also told his apostles they would do greater things than he would do, which means that if they were worthy to command the elements, they could do that too.

Interesting relationship between a Glorified, Exalted Man and the elements of the universe, isn't it?
The elements did not come from nothing. Your god cannot create, our God can create.

Seems our God is much more powerful than the Mormon god.

The fact that you believe JS and that something eternal came from nothing is surprising.

Don't put Jesus on the same level as Mormonism does. If you think an elevated man is going to save you, who has no power, I'm sure that is what will happen.

Respect who Jesus Christ is to Christians. The creator of all.

By the way, the Apostles, through Christ and God's Holy Spirit did miracles, and wonders. Maybe your again on the physical level.


.
Now who created the elements again? Or was it a Big Bang?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,790
✟322,365.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
God has no form, no shape, is immaterial, unfathomable, and everywhere. Sounds like you believe in a
non-existent God.

5 points about God to think about:
1) The bible declares Jesus has form.

2) The bible declares Jesus has shape.

3) The bible does not say, God is "immaterial".

4) The bible does not say, God is "unfathomable".

5) God is everywhere, but this is where you get confused. How can the bible say that God is everywhere and at the same time say God has a body of flesh and bone and spirit. Wow, what a contradiction. So to end the contradiction you go all the way to "immaterial" and pretty much eliminate God altogether. Throw out those scriptures that say men have seen God, throw them all out, they are obviously wrong.
But the bible is right. God in His perfect, resurrected, immortal, exalted body of flesh and bone and spirit can sit on His throne and at the same time influence the entire universe with His light, and His spririt, which eminate from Him to fill the immensities of space.

I just want you to know that the bible says that God is the "living God". He calls Himself the "living God" because he does actually live. If He is a living entity, then He is not immaterial, and He is not unfathomable, He does have form, he does have shape.
So:
He can see you with His eyes. You can see Him too.
You can touch Him, and still see the wounds in His hands and feet and side.
You can pray to Him and He will hear your prayers with His ears.

God is truely wonderful, I love Him because He lives and is real, and He loves me too.
We believe in a very existant God.

Your god is elevated man. Not ours. Your version of god sounds about as true as the Book of Abraham.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,790
✟322,365.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
God has no form, no shape, is immaterial, unfathomable, and everywhere. Sounds like you believe in a
non-existent God.

5 points about God to think about:
1) The bible declares Jesus has form.

2) The bible declares Jesus has shape.

3) The bible does not say, God is "immaterial".

4) The bible does not say, God is "unfathomable".

5) God is everywhere, but this is where you get confused. How can the bible say that God is everywhere and at the same time say God has a body of flesh and bone and spirit. Wow, what a contradiction. So to end the contradiction you go all the way to "immaterial" and pretty much eliminate God altogether. Throw out those scriptures that say men have seen God, throw them all out, they are obviously wrong.
But the bible is right. God in His perfect, resurrected, immortal, exalted body of flesh and bone and spirit can sit on His throne and at the same time influence the entire universe with His light, and His spririt, which eminate from Him to fill the immensities of space.

I just want you to know that the bible says that God is the "living God". He calls Himself the "living God" because he does actually live. If He is a living entity, then He is not immaterial, and He is not unfathomable, He does have form, he does have shape.
So:
He can see you with His eyes. You can see Him too.
You can touch Him, and still see the wounds in His hands and feet and side.
You can pray to Him and He will hear your prayers with His ears.

God is truely wonderful, I love Him because He lives and is real, and He loves me too.
Really it sounds like you believe in a non-existant God. The God you try to make exactly like yourself so you feel like God. The God that you call an elevated man with a body. Sounds like you are your God and you've made yourself Him.

Jesus as the Son of God never had form. Only being born fully human and fully God did Jesus take form.

So Jesus was spirit way before He was man. Although for your own pride you want to keep Him at your level.

Don't compare your beliefs to ours. You know they are totally different.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,785
Pacific Northwest
✟728,115.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
So by your statement you deny Jesus Christ is God and that would be heresy.

I'm not talking about the Incarnation, I'm talking about God in God's own nature.

Jesus Christ, being a human being, absolutely does have human anatomy, biology, etc--and so yes, we can say "God is male" and "God has a body" in reference to the Incarnate Logos, Jesus Christ. That wasn't the topic of discussion however.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,785
Pacific Northwest
✟728,115.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
God has no form, no shape, is immaterial, unfathomable, and everywhere. Sounds like you believe in a
non-existent God

Only if you limit existence to material existence. Scripture and the Christian Church don't, so neither do I.

5 points about God to think about:
1) The bible declares Jesus has form.

2) The bible declares Jesus has shape.

Jesus is a human being.

3) The bible does not say, God is "immaterial".

No, it says God is Spirit, and that He is invisible and dwells in unapproachable light.

4) The bible does not say, God is "unfathomable".

No, it says that His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts, and it says to what will we compare God?

5) God is everywhere, but this is where you get confused. How can the bible say that God is everywhere and at the same time say God has a body of flesh and bone and spirit.

It doesn't, except in the case of Jesus who is a human being.

Wow, what a contradiction.

What contradiction?

So to end the contradiction you go all the way to "immaterial" and pretty much eliminate God altogether.

Only if one assumes your premise that immaterial means non-existent, a premise you haven't even tried to demonstrate but have merely assumed, and which I reject. Your conclusion therefore does not follow.

Throw out those scriptures that say men have seen God, throw them all out, they are obviously wrong.

No one has ever seen God (John 1:18) but the Son has made Him known, the Son, who has come in human likeness and being, makes the Father known.

Indeed, even the Deuteronomist says,

"So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire," (Deuteronomy 4:15)

But the bible is right. God in His perfect, resurrected, immortal, exalted body of flesh and bone and spirit can sit on His throne and at the same time influence the entire universe with His light, and His spririt, which eminate from Him to fill the immensities of space.

The Logos became flesh and dwelt among us, that's why He has a body. The Bible is right about that.

I just want you to know that the bible says that God is the "living God".

In contrast to dead idols of stone and metal. He's real, unlike false gods and idols--significant difference indeed.

He calls Himself the "living God" because he does actually live. If He is a living entity, then He is not immaterial, and He is not unfathomable, He does have form, he does have shape.

See above.

So:
He can see you with His eyes. You can see Him too.

I could see Jesus, because again a human being with a human body.

You can touch Him, and still see the wounds in His hands and feet and side.
You can pray to Him and He will hear your prayers with His ears.

In reference to the Incarnate Logos, you're absolutely correct.

God is truely wonderful, I love Him because He lives and is real, and He loves me too.

Then I recommend stop having false ideas about God.

"To whom then will you liken God,
or what likeness compare with him?
An idol? —A workman casts it,
and a goldsmith overlays it with gold,
and casts for it silver chains.
As a gift one chooses mulberry wood
—wood that will not rot—
then seeks out a skilled artisan
to set up an image that will not topple.

Have you not known? Have you not heard?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,
and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;
who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
and spreads them like a tent to live in;
who brings princes to naught,
and makes the rulers of the earth as nothing.

Scarcely are they planted, scarcely sown,
scarcely has their stem taken root in the earth,
when he blows upon them, and they wither,
and the tempest carries them off like stubble.

To whom then will you compare me,
or who is my equal? says the Holy One.
" - Isaiah 40:18-25

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Like
Reactions: BigDaddy4
Upvote 0

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Jesus was talking about his perfect life and everything that He does is perfect as the Father would do.

If it were about the physical being, anyone would be like the Father. Think about that. :scratch: It wouldn't have had to be Jesus. Sometimes good ole fashioned common sense.
Common sense does go a long way. But in this case, it happened to be Jesus that was asked the question. So I used Jesus as the example of what the Father looked like. I could have use anyone, because we are made in God's image and likeness, so anyone would be like the Father, as you say.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,785
Pacific Northwest
✟728,115.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Common sense does go a long way. But in this case, it happened to be Jesus that was asked the question. So I used Jesus as the example of what the Father looked like. I could have use anyone, because we are made in God's image and likeness, so anyone would be like the Father, as you say.

And yet Jesus alone is the exact impress of God's hypostasis (Hebrews 1:3), who alone can make the Father known (John 1:18), and thus if we have seen Him--not Moses, Joshua, David, Abraham, Bob, Jim, or Doug--we have seen the Father. Because He is the Father's own Word incarnate, the Eternal and Uncreated Logos who is with God and is God, and therefore can make God known.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0