• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

1 Corinthians 11 1-16 Should women wear prayer veils?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Senior Pastor, Dec 19, 2019.

  1. Senior Pastor

    Senior Pastor Servant of the Lord Supporter

    95
    +50
    United States
    Wesleyan
    Married
    In 1 Corinthians 11 1-16 the apostle Paul discusses women wearing prayer veils. Should women wear prayer veils? After much research and prayer, I was moved by the Spirit that half a chapter of Holy Scripture should not be ignored or treated as “incidental” and not preached by the churches.

    What are some of the common arguments heard against women wearing prayer veils in the church? One of the most common is that the women’s hair is their covering. Another is that it was a custom of the time and not a principle. Let’s discuss these one at a time.

    Many read only one verse v.15 out of the entire 16 verses and decide that women's hair is their covering, but such an interpretation would contradict itself and make the entire scripture nonsense.

    Let’s take a closer look about what I am referring to. If her hair has been given to her as a natural covering verse 15 then in verse 5 why would it read if her head is uncovered meaning "bald" let her be more bald? See the contradiction to such an interpretation? Obviously, two different types of coverings are being discussed here. One is her hair, her natural covering for the outside world and her veil inside the church.

    1 Corinthians 11:1-16 (KJV)
    1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
    2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
    3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
    4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
    5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
    6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
    7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
    8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
    9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
    10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
    11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
    12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
    13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
    14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
    15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
    16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

    When we read scripture, we tend to come to the scriptures with natural biases whether we realize it or not. We currently live in a post-feminist society. This world view has also infiltrated into the churches. It is difficult in our current society to interpret certain scripture when it goes against what societal norms and dictates. In our post-feminist society women wearing prayer veils would be considered sexist. Yet, so would many other teachings of the bible such as Pastors being men and the divine order discussed not only here 1 Corinthians but throughout the bible.

    A veil may be whatever covering is customary for the day, other than hair. As long as the woman's head is covered is what the Apostle Paul was driving home in this half a chapter of Holy scripture regarding the topic. I try not to be dogmatic about what type of head covering it should be.

    As I stated earlier another common argument against head coverings is that it was a custom at the time and does not apply to us today.

    Principles are those commands God that apply to all people at all time in every culture and in every life situation.

    Customs are those things that are variant local applications of principles.

    For example, in the NT the principle of tithing was there and in those days it was done in the Denarius or the Shekel. Does that mean that the only way we can please God today is by paying our tithes in Denarius or Shekel? Of course not! The monetary unit was customary the clothing styles those are the things that are subject to change from culture to culture from place to place. The principle of modesty applies to all generations, but how that modesty is manifested will differ from one country to another and from one time to another. We understand that those things are customary. Many times, distinguishing between custom and principles is a relatively easy matter, but not always sometimes it is excruciatingly difficult to make that distinction.

    Here is the Principle to apply if you can't decide if something is a custom or principle. The biblical principle would be whatever is not of faith is a sin. The burden of proof is always going to be on those who argue that such and such a command is custom and not principle. If you are not sure then the principle that applies is treat it as a principle, because if you treat a custom as a principle then the only guilt you bear is being overly scrupulous, but if you take a principle of God and treat it as a local custom and don't observe it you have sinned against God.

    Every serious student of the Word of God first seeks to discover its meaning and standards and then, and only then, to bring practice into conformity with it. Biblical principles determine Biblical practice.


    It would appear the church had a rich history of veiling for women up until the feminist movement launched a specific attack against the practice.

    It was the "meaning" of this act that the feminist movement took offense to as does our current day society regarding "male headship in the home & church," which is God's order of creation that the Apostle Paul touched on in several of his epistles.

    Excerpt used for EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY: from Gardiner, Jeremy. Head Covering: A Forgotten Christian Practice for Modern Times Head Covering Movement. Kindle Edition.

    The National Organization for Women (NOW) is a feminist organization founded by Betty Friedan (author of The Feminist Mystique). In 1968 they rallied their troops to have a “national unveiling.” Here’s what they said: “Because the wearing of a head covering by women at religious services is a symbol of subjection with many churches, NOW recommends that all chapters undertake an effort to have all women participate in a "national unveiling" by sending their head coverings to the task force chairman. At the spring meeting of the task force of women and religion, these veils will be publicly burned to protest the second class status of women in all churches.” [25] NOW rallied their various chapters to “undertake an effort” to stop the practice of head covering. They were so disgusted with the symbol and what it represented that they had a public burning of women’s veils. Sadly, their efforts achieved what they hoped it would.

    I do believe that in regards to women wearing a prayer veil that it should not be "required" by the church since that would make it to no "effect," because the biblical principle here is "voluntary submission." As a Pastor, I believe I am required to preach the "whole" word of God to the congregation and let the women in the congregation make their own personal "choice" on the matter as to be in proper fellowship with the Lord. Basically, I believe I am held accountable for preaching it, but they are held accountable for its execution.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. bèlla

    bèlla ⭐️ Supporter

    +12,705
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Single
    I’ve used them while praying at home and wore a head covering for a year. One person asked if I was in mourning and another openly admitted their discomfort. I was attending an evangelical church at the time.

    I think it’s a personal decision or a practice that’s borne from spiritual conviction. The latter was my case.

    ~Bella
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • List
  3. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

    +6,135
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    Orthodox women:

    Ufa, Russia - March 20: Stock Footage Video (100% Royalty-free) 6200291 | Shutterstock
     
  4. Senior Pastor

    Senior Pastor Servant of the Lord Supporter

    95
    +50
    United States
    Wesleyan
    Married
    Great post. @HTacianas Unfortunately, in our western culture, this practice has seemed to have been lost.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  5. anna ~ grace

    anna ~ grace Newbie Supporter

    +9,845
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Yes, and it is a good thing to do. :crosseo:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Heavenhome

    Heavenhome Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,228
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    I started to cover for worship and prayer a number of years ago after reading the verses in Corinthians and was convicted because even though I had read before many times, suddenly I thought (the Holy Spirit convicting me) "this is what it says clearly, why aren't I doing it?".
    It was as simple as that, and submission to God, who is my very reason for living.
     
  7. Tone

    Tone "Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great." Supporter

    +6,425
    United States
    Messianic
    Private

    Pretty hot too...
     
  8. jahel

    jahel returned to old acct

    616
    +245
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    Totally look like Muslims :sorry:
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +33,589
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Thank you for this. Well researched and argued.

    I have to ask pastor...which Wesleyan Church actually enforces this standard? Just curious.

    I spent my teens in a smallish Open Plymouth Brethren Church where the women wore coverings.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  10. Heavenhome

    Heavenhome Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,228
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
     
  11. jahel

    jahel returned to old acct

    616
    +245
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    [QUOTE="Senior Pastor, post: 74568948, member: 424843”] <snipped>
    Here is the Principle to apply if you can't decide if something is a custom or principle. The biblical principle would be whatever is not of faith is a sin. The burden of proof is always going to be on those who argue that such and such a command is custom and not principle. If you are not sure then the principle that applies is treat it as a principle, because if you treat a custom as a principle then the only guilt you bear is being overly scrupulous, but if you take a principle of God and treat it as a local custom and don't observe it you have sinned against God.<snipped>
    I do believe that in regards to women wearing a prayer veil that it should not be "required" by the church since that would make it to no "effect," because the biblical principle here is "voluntary submission."
    .[/QUOTE]

    I don’t see a connection from principal to custom because the principal should never vary. Rather I see the principal as the substance and precepts as stepping stones to bring one to an understanding of the principal, because the line to the Father are found there.
    I’m of the opinion that what is said to women is representative of that which is said to the church. The depth of teaching is found therein. It’s not found in a cursory reading of customs in comparison to precepts.
     
  12. Senior Pastor

    Senior Pastor Servant of the Lord Supporter

    95
    +50
    United States
    Wesleyan
    Married
    That is an excellent question @readleghunter! That would bring us to my other post "Rightly dividing the Word of Truth and Contending for the Faith."
    The short answer is given the current state of affairs in our churches today none that I know of.
    Excerpts from that post:
    -----

    "Let me first say that we live at a time when it is unpopular to confront others for immoral or improper actions and words. The popular belief of today is that everyone should be able to do their own thing, and others have no right to “judge” or correct them. What a mess this idea has created in our society and in our churches.

    Sadly, many Christians have embraced this complacent attitude toward correcting others, and, as a result, sin and false doctrine in the church are seldom confronted and curbed."

    "2 Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

    This prophetic writing began its fulfillment shortly after it was penned and has escalated to what is happening in churches today. There are presently a great number of teachers willing to say what itching ears want to hear, instead of telling the truth as revealed in God’s Word."

    -----

    I shared this topic with a fellow pastor that I knew in another city, I had sent him copies of Head Covering: A Forgotten Christian Practice for Modern Times. I eventually followed up with him months later as to his position. His response was shocking, he stated that he considered it "incidental." I'll pray for him because to believe that a half a chapter of Holy Scripture to be incidental was a surprise. Gee, I wonder which parts of the bible the rest of us can decide on our own are "incidental" and not really follow it?
    in·ci·den·tal
    /ˌinsəˈden(t)l/
    Learn to pronounce
    adjective
    1. accompanying but not a major part of something."for the fieldworker who deals with real problems, paperwork is incidental"
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  13. jahel

    jahel returned to old acct

    616
    +245
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    I can’t help but compare that to a whole book using the incident of Hosea and Gomar to effect an understanding of God’s love to human beings.
     
  14. Senior Pastor

    Senior Pastor Servant of the Lord Supporter

    95
    +50
    United States
    Wesleyan
    Married
    Amen Sister! May the Blessings of the Lord be upon you and your family.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • List
  15. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie

    +953
    Baptist
    Single
    In my opinion, when one prays, God is interested in the heart of the person not what's on the head.

    But I see nothing wrong with it. I also see no benefit.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  16. Heavenhome

    Heavenhome Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,228
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    Of course it is the heart that God is interested in.
    The covering is an acknowledgement of submission to God not only as we are told to do in Corinthians, but a public declaration of our submission. A dirty word often in these tines.
    I liken it also a bit like the obedience to be baptised; we are told to but it is not the act of the baptism that saves, but what's in our heart towards God.
    I don't have anything against anyone who doesnt cover but for me it was a "lightbulb " moment.
    I don't have a veil but wear a hat or scarf for worship.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  17. sweetycakes1

    sweetycakes1 Loving the Lord Supporter

    56
    +54
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Female submission today as you wrote so well is "a dirty word often in these times."

    I listen to my fiance who is a Christian and let him make the final decisions for us. Sometimes in our relationship, he was hesitant, but I was insistent that this was his biblical role. I've noticed that this also helped us both grow together in the faith.

    One of my girlfriends who knows he makes the final decisions for us said that was allowing him to treat me as a "floor mat." I told her that this was the Lord's divine order and if God loves me HE would never let anyone treat me as a floor mat.

    I love my future husband and he makes me feel so special and is so loving to me. I am lucky the Lord has blessed me with such a wonderful man.
     
  18. sweetycakes1

    sweetycakes1 Loving the Lord Supporter

    56
    +54
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Single
    I didn't know that NOW attacked the Church Body like that! This was a very informative post and I learned so much from you Pastor. I wish other Pastor's would teach this.
     
  19. Rubiks

    Rubiks proud libtard

    +2,182
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Many people read that passage as Paul teaching against immodest clothing (implied to be by the standards of the time), but notice Paul never actually makes that argument.

    Here are verses 7 through 10 from the NRSV:

    For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. 8 Indeed, man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for the sake of man. 10 For this reason a woman ought to have a symbol authority on her head, because of the angels.
     
  20. Heavenhome

    Heavenhome Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,228
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    How truly wonderful to read a post such as yours.
    God bless you and your future husband as I am sure He will for both of your faithfulness to Him.:heart:
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
Loading...