“Stop following me! We’re not related!”

[Abel Gkiouzelis]

And I'm telling you that you're wrong. Your figures are objectively wrong.

-CryptoLutheran

I wish you the best my friend. I'm not here for fights. I wish you always have the smile of God in your heart!

 

[Hoghead1]

hat is not at all tree, Abel, and Cadet, I hope you don't take him seriously. It is a common popular myth to speak of the early church. Forget it. There was no unified church. There were any number of feuding sects. Indeed, the Emperor Julian once lamented that the problem with Christians is that they fight like casts and dogs, like wild animals on one another. The Emperor Constantine summoned teh Council of Nicaea largely because there was so much bitter feuding over the nature and Deity of Christ. About 800 bishops came, spent much time yelling at one another, 18 tried to walk out and refused to sign anything until Constantine said he'd hang onto then until they did. The matter was yet to be settled. When Constantine's son came to the thrown, he threw the creed out, exiled it main proponents. Even when the Creed was reinstated, there were many Arians, who opposed it. Arianism was prevalent among the Germanic tribesman in the 7th and 8th century, for example, and still is today. Meanwhile, there was a major battle between the orthodox and the gnostic Christians. The gnostics were very powerful and one of their leaders almost became pope. They were like a cat and a dog. The orthodox had roughly our gospels. The gnostic argued the orthodox were a conspiracy of the Devil to use organized religion to alienate us from Christ. They produced 42 contrary gospels, which we found in the late 1940's. What they had to say about Christ was light years different from the orthodox. They claimed Christ was never crucified, but some fool in his place. They claimed there was no need for Christ to be crucified. They claimed Christ was not born and definitely was not Jewish. They claimed the OT Hebrew God, who created the world, was a wicked God. Moses is said to be a laughing stock who fell for all his rules. They believed Jesus was a lesser God or divine being, a being of pure light who was also a shape changer, appearing any way he wanted. They believed in reincarnation. On an on it goes. Eventually they were put down by the sword. They came back in major vogue in the Medieval Period, was put down again, gut has cropped up even today. My point in all this is that one of the reasons why Christianity today has so many divergent POV's is that it was never a unified religion to begin with.

 

[Jay Follett]

hat is not at all tree, Abel, and Cadet, I hope you don't take him seriously. It is a common popular myth to speak of the early church. Forget it. There was no unified church. There were any number of feuding sects. Indeed, the Emperor Julian once lamented that the problem with Christians is that they fight like casts and dogs, like wild animals on one another. The Emperor Constantine summoned teh Council of Nicaea largely because there was so much bitter feuding over the nature and Deity of Christ. About 800 bishops came, spent much time yelling at one another, 18 tried to walk out and refused to sign anything until Constantine said he'd hang onto then until they did. The matter was yet to be settled. When Constantine's son came to the thrown, he threw the creed out, exiled it main proponents. Even when the Creed was reinstated, there were many Arians, who opposed it. Arianism was prevalent among the Germanic tribesman in the 7th and 8th century, for example, and still is today. Meanwhile, there was a major battle between the orthodox and the gnostic Christians. The gnostics were very powerful and one of their leaders almost became pope. They were like a cat and a dog. The orthodox had roughly our gospels. The gnostic argued the orthodox were a conspiracy of the Devil to use organized religion to alienate us from Christ. They produced 42 contrary gospels, which we found in the late 1940's. What they had to say about Christ was light years different from the orthodox. They claimed Christ was never crucified, but some fool in his place. They claimed there was no need for Christ to be crucified. They claimed Christ was not born and definitely was not Jewish. They claimed the OT Hebrew God, who created the world, was a wicked God. Moses is said to be a laughing stock who fell for all his rules. They believed Jesus was a lesser God or divine being, a being of pure light who was also a shape changer, appearing any way he wanted. They believed in reincarnation. On an on it goes. Eventually they were put down by the sword. They came back in major vogue in the Medieval Period, was put down again, gut has cropped up even today. My point in all this is that one of the reasons why Christianity today has so many divergent POV's is that it was never a unified religion to begin with.

Unfortunately it's not what is true for a Christian it's more about what they want or can make themselves believe, history for them is only useful if it supports what they want to believe, if it doesn't then they say that no one can prove that part of history is true, they have no problems with the history they want to believe.

Religions allow people to fool themselves into believing something that will remove their fear of death or at least minimise it's effect on their lives, death is not the problem it's the living with the fear of death that's the problem, unfortunately the price people pay for trying to remove that fear costs them more than the fear itself, acceptance is much easier and is a fraction of the cost, unfortunately not everyone is capable of accepting the inevitable and need help, any help, no matter how ludicrous it may seem to others if it works for them they use it.

 

[Hoghead1]

What are you arguing, Jay, about death? That there is no hereafter? Also, there is much more involved here than the fear of death. Many theological issues entail considerable speculation. In addition, you have persons coming in with very different experiences and standards. One God, many paths. That is the way I like to think of it. Actually, such a plurality is also found in other fields, such as science. The physicists really don't talk to the biologists, who really don't talk to the psychologists, etc. I attended more than one interdisciplinary discussion group where everyone largely sat and found over the territory.

 

[Jay Follett]

What are you arguing, Jay, about death? That there is no hereafter?

Hereafter? even the word is nonsense, there is no such thing, death is the end of life and everything dies.

Also, there is much more involved here than the fear of death.

Please tell me what other reasons there are for religions? religions are pacifiers.

Many theological issues entail considerable speculation.

It's all speculation.

In addition, you have persons coming in with very different experiences and standards.

You mean feelings.

One God, many paths.

Just saying there is a God means less than nothing.

That is the way I like to think of it.

You are free to think what you like but unfortunately it means nothing to anyone else.

Actually, such a plurality is also found in other fields, such as science.

Science deals in facts not conjecture.

The physicists really don't talk to the biologists, who really don't talk to the psychologists, etc. I attended more than one interdisciplinary discussion group where everyone largely sat and found over the territory.

Religions and Gods are myths, they are figments of our imaginations and they come and they go, that's life.

 

[Hoghead1]

The problem I am having with your arguments, Jay, is that they don't explain where the concept of God or the hereafter came from. You can say they are all myths. However, that does not answer the question. All myths are rooted in reality. Our imaginations are not all that free. Much of the content of our imaginations, no matter how way out it may see, is based on actual experience, fact. If there really was no hereafter or God, if we never experienced these , we would never have such concepts or anything near them. People worldwide believe in some sort of God or gods and hereafter. It's universal. People seem to have a need to so believe. Now I believe that the system that generates the need, satisfies the need. We all need and want water, and there is water, etc. This same principle holds with God and the hereafter.

 

[Jay Follett]

The problem I am having with your arguments, Jay, is that they don't explain where the concept of God or the hereafter came from.

They came from men.

You can say they are all myths. However, that does not answer the question. All myths are rooted in reality.

Are you saying that the myth of fire breathing dragon is base on reality?

Our imaginations are not all that free. Much of the content of our imaginations, no matter how way out it may see, is based on actual experience, fact.

Please see above.

If there really was no hereafter or God, if we never experienced these , we would never have such concepts or anything near them.

Are you really saying that people have died and gone to heaven, seen God and then came back to tell people about it?

People worldwide believe in some sort of God or gods and hereafter. It's universal'

Why do you think that is? because all the people on earth are subject to the same fears as we are, they all needed protection from nature in all of it's forms, they needed their crops to grow so they appealed to the Gods, they were afraid of everything they didn't understand so they had Gods for each and every fear they had, they even had Gods to protect the things they liked doing so they would be able to keep doing them, on top of that they were all afraid of death.

People seem to have a need to so believe. Now I believe that the system that generates the need, satisfies the need. We all need and want water, and there is water, etc. This same principle holds with God and the hereafter.

The difference is water is physical and thoughts and beliefs are not, you need water to live but you don't need thoughts of gods to live, (I'm proof of that) let's say you are not afraid of the things I am afraid of so you don't worry about them, I do and I need help to overcome those fears, you seeing my fear can use it to your advantage by offering me the protection of a magic man you have heard of and you are willing to talk to him on my behalf, it goes on from there and the rest is history.
Where do you think 'lucky charms' came from? we don't need to go back thousands of years just hundreds to a time when people could not do a thing because of superstition, superstition dominated their lives, the sign of the cross people do is all about superstition.

For you your religion is a mainstay for me it's nothing but a joke played on gullible people.
Although it's no joke when you see the money religions brings in, apart from the obvious con tricks of the mega churches and the TV evangelists the Catholic church is as big as any company in America.

 

[AV1611VET]

Are you really saying that people have died and gone to heaven, seen God and then came back to tell people about it?

You mean, like Paul?

2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, ( whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, ( whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

For you your religion is a mainstay for me it's nothing but a joke played on gullible people.

Gitcha, did they?

What did you do?

Send £1000 for Love Potion #9 and got a bottle of British Sterling?

 

[Jay Follett]

What did you do?
Send £1000 for Love Potion #9 and got a bottle of British Sterling?

It seems you think the people who do not believe are deliberately disbelieving, let me tell you something AV1611VET, if you gave any atheist just ONE sound reason to believe they would be believers in the next breath, sadly you can't, that's why religions try to get the children to believe because they know that people after a certain age will not buy into religion, some people might if they have no where else to turn either through illness or money problems and they are extremely desperate, then they turn to religion as a last resort.
You do not need me to explain any of this to you because you already know all of it is true.

 

[Jay Follett]

You mean, like Paul?

I'm saying nothing, I will let others think about that for themselves.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Certainly seems like it.

So does this mean you are a literalist - fundalmentalist - dispensationist?
Are you really willing to go wherever the evidence leads you?

 

[joshua 1 9]

It seems you think the people who do not believe are deliberately disbelieving, let me tell you something AV1611VET, if you gave any atheist just ONE sound reason to believe they would be believers in the next breath, sadly you can't, that's why religions try to get the children to believe because they know that people after a certain age will not buy into religion, some people might if they have no where else to turn either through illness or money problems and they are extremely desperate, then they turn to religion as a last resort.
You do not need me to explain any of this to you because you already know all of it is true.

There are plenty of atheists that will reject sound reason when it does not serve their cause or purpose. AV may reject the fundamentals of science but as far as I know he is very much a fundamentalist when it comes to the Bible.

 

[AV1611VET]

It seems you think the people who do not believe are deliberately disbelieving,

That is correct.

Why do you think God calls them "fools"?

let me tell you something AV1611VET, if you gave any atheist just ONE sound reason to believe they would be believers in the next breath,

And do what with their belief?

Repent?

I'm sure you've seen posts where the poster says, "If God exists, He's going to get a piece of my mind."

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm saying nothing, I will let others think about that for themselves.

Why leave it up to them?

You're the one who asked, "Are you really saying that people have died and gone to heaven, seen God and then came back to tell people about it?"

Now that your question has been answered, bust a move and make your point.

Or was your question just empty rhetoric?

 

[The Cadet]

That is correct.

Why do you think God calls them "fools"?

Because the bible is, above all, horribly self-serving? It's about poisoning the well.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Because the bible is, above all, horribly self-serving? It's about poisoning the well.

So you admit then that whatever well you are drinking from contains poison.

 

[The Cadet]

So you admit then that whatever well you are drinking from contains poison.

...No. That's not how that works. That's not how any of that works.

 

[Jay Follett]

There are plenty of atheists that will reject sound reason when it does not serve their cause or purpose.

Hardly.. Reason and scepticism is why they are atheists in the first place, I doubt they would abandon reason to believe something else that had no evidence backing it up, I think that's just wishful thinking on your part.

 

[The Cadet]

Hardly.. Reason and scepticism is why they are atheists in the first place, I doubt they would abandon reason to believe something else that had no evidence backing it up, I think that's just wishful thinking on your part.

There are a lot of very stupid atheists who are atheists for very bad reasons.

 

[Jay Follett]

There are a lot of very stupid atheists who are atheists for very bad reasons.

There are stupid atheists I agree but what are the bad reason for being an atheist?