“Eternal Salvation”

[fhansen]

I like the way you phrased this because it's clear and applicable to the issue! It's the old man (flesh or sin nature) in us that desires to sin, and thankfully we are no longer in or after it (Ro 8:9). With our new nature we will never "sin willfully" (Heb 10:26; Num 15:30). This answers to Paul's admission in
Rom 7:25).

Hmm... But I tend to think that what really happens is a sort of battle of the wills, and only by our remaining in Him can that battle be won, by, through, and with Him.

 

[WordSword]

Hmm... But I tend to think that what really happens is a sort of battle of the wills, and only by our remaining in Him can that battle be won, by, through, and with Him.

True, and it's because He causes those who choose Him to desire to make His will our will (Phl 2:13). Staying in Christ requires God's work in us as much as it requires Him to save us. We will depend of Him to keep us.

 

[fhansen]

True, and it's because He causes those who choose Him to desire to make His will our will (Phl 2:13). Staying in Christ requires God's work in us as much as it requires Him to save us. We will depend of Him to keep us.

And yet IMO, given the overall picture portrayed about his matter by Scripture, I don't think that's at all a guarantee. We're told to strive, to persevere, to be vigilant, to work out our salvation, also in Phil 2, simply because that's the part He wants us to play.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

In Hebrews 6 we read of a sin from which one cannot return to repentance. If a fully Spirit filled, scripture enlightened Hebrew Christian fell slack, as they did, needing to revise the basics, then weakly left the difficult life and went with the Pharisees, who now created the teaching that Jesus was a false prophet and deserved to die, that they were crucifying Him again, and they could not return.

It goes on in their case to say better things were expected for them. For all of us it says faith and patience are the keys to success, as with the ancients like Abraham. These by the way, are two aspects, of the fruit of the Spirit, Galatians 5:22.

There is more about it in Hebrews 10. We soak up the Spirit and His word like the Earth the rain, and are expected to bear fruit. Or else thorns, which will only be burned.

Faith, patience, seeking God diligently, and other qualities are seen in ch 11 with the list of greats.

We need to humble ourselves and repent often. By grace and mercy with kindness from God. It is like eating and drinking, if we stop, our faith and love can starve. We have left the vine being Christ. John 14.

The letters mention being continually filled with the Spirit and Hebrews of going on to doing more. Daily prayer and worship are beneficial. Meditating on scripture and the law.

Romans 5:3-5 are key. Love is the goal.

Calvin, Augustine and Arminius... were wrongly founded on a strict interpretation of scripture and the apostolic succession. The church ruled hard and all citizens were under censorship from heresy... So infant baptism thinking God would or may damn a baby who dies before fulfilling scripture and being baptised in so, did not understand grace fundamentally.

On the other end of the age spectrum, in grace is the final overcoming of Satan and standing complete before God, glorification, after which, with free will and all knowledge, sinlessness and true love are absolutely certain. That essentially takes the power of the blood of Christ and the resurrection.

 

[WordSword]

And yet IMO, given the overall picture portrayed about his matter by Scripture, I don't think that's at all a guarantee. We're told to strive, to persevere, to be vigilant, to work out our salvation, also in Phil 2, simply because that's the part He wants us to play.

Not to oppose your belief, but He guarantees to "work" (Phl 2:13) in those reborn, which means they will ever desire His pleasure over our old man. "Works in you to will and do His good pleasure."

Concerning Phl 2:12, the meaning is often misconceived (not suspecting any individual) to mean their salvation is incomplete even at rebirth. The passage designs the intention of working out of your salvation, not for it.

 

[fhansen]

Not to oppose your belief, but He guarantees to "work" (Phl 2:13) in those reborn, which means they will ever desire His pleasure over our old man. "Works in you to will and do His good pleasure."

Concerning Phl 2:12, the meaning is often misconceived (not suspecting any individual) to mean their salvation is incomplete even at rebirth. The passage designs the intention of working out of your salvation, not for it.

I guess there are just way too many other passages beginning with an "if" - or conveying some such concept- relating to our salvation. These amount to warnings, encouragements, exhortations, etc to balance out overconfidence while still acknowledging Gods desire to save all.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Not to oppose your belief, but He guarantees to "work" (Phl 2:13) in those reborn, which means they will ever desire His pleasure over our old man. "Works in you to will and do His good pleasure."

Concerning Phl 2:12, the meaning is often misconceived (not suspecting any individual) to mean their salvation is incomplete even at rebirth. The passage designs the intention of working out of your salvation, not for it.

Salvation is complete, but it takes time, faith and patience is in Hebrews 6, which warns of the unpardonable sin, only those who were once enlightened and Spirit filled could commit.

Working out salvation as from Galatians 5:22 involves faith and patience. If we do not surrender after new birth, our faith and love can die. And we are warned about not bearing fruit, and being burned, apart from the vine John 14.

Because Lucifer's fall is complete and Jesus victory is complete, Jesus' sacred blood and the power of His resurrection before God, in the afterlife, glorifies us and we no longer want to sin and grow cold, despite complete free choice.

 

[WordSword]

Salvation is complete, but it takes time, faith and patience is in Hebrews 6, which warns of the unpardonable sin, only those who were once enlightened and Spirit filled could commit.

Albert Barnes (1798-1870) "It is not an affirmation that any had actually fallen away, or that in fact they would do it; but the statement is, that “on the supposition that they had fallen away,” it would be impossible to renew them again."

Working out salvation as from Galatians 5:22 involves faith and patience. If we do not surrender after new birth, our faith and love can die.

Rebirth means that God uses the new nature and the Spirit to keep us ever desiring His pleasure only, even though our old nature continues to oppose and, to a certain degree, effect us.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Albert Barnes (1798-1870) "It is not an affirmation that any had actually fallen away, or that in fact they would do it; but the statement is, that “on the supposition that they had fallen away,” it would be impossible to renew them again."

Rebirth means that God uses the new nature and the Spirit to keep us ever desiring His pleasure only, even though our old nature continues to oppose and, to a certain degree, effect us.

Yes it is possible to come to a point of no return, but the things written in Hebrews 6, are more than being born again, and some Christians don't believe in those gifts for the present day, while others still do, but have not received them.

The new birth continues in the after life with full glorification, after that happens, we secured and free.

Many people's love will grow cold in the tribulation. It takes faith and patience and seeking God, maybe crying out, to overcome and be given the reward, as it the seven churches, found in John's Revelation.

The New Testament Christian has words about continual Holy Spirit infilling, the power of Jesus' sacred blood, the living water, the anointing, the fire and the resurrection power. Prophecy is important and knowledge. Surrendering to the Spirit within brings the fruit of the Spirit and seems to fulfill Philippians 2:12,13. If we do not die to self and pray... as some stop, busy with life and pleasures and worries, the seed scattered by the path side, they grow cold, and may die offended.

 

[WordSword]

Yes it is possible to come to a point of no return,

Hi, and appreciate your reply and comments! If one professes to be in the faith and eventually permanently ceases from it, this manifests it was a false profession they left, not a true one, for true professions means one is reborn, has been given an additional but new nature, has the Spirit indwelling, using the Life of Christ in us (Col 3:4); and the Father's "work" to keep us "desiring" and "doing" His "good pleasure."

the things written in Hebrews 6, are more than being born again

I see Heb 6:1, 2 describing going to the Gospel of Christ (rebirth) from the practice of the Law, e.g. "baptisms," here refer to ritualistic practices using the name "washings" to be synonymous with "baptisms" (e.g. Mar7:4; Heb 9:10).

some Christians don't believe in those gifts for the present day, while others still do, but have not received them.

If you're referring to "laying on of hands" I agree, the gifts of the Spirit in the apostolic capacity ceased with the death of the last apostle to die, John. But in this passage it's in the sense of the Old Covenant's usage of Priests and authoritative people of God, mostly in sacrificial related usages of the Law, e.g. the transferring of the sins of the people to an animal about to be sacrificed (Leviticus 16:21; 24:14; Numbers 8:12). This was written to the Hebrews Christians to inform them they could no longer practice it, Christ being the final sacrifice.

The new birth continues in the after life with full glorification, after that happens, we secured and free.

If by "full glorification" you mean new body and no more "old man" (sin nature), this is true, as rebirth presently and forever secures our salvation.

Many people's love will grow cold in the tribulation.

Matthew 24, esp. verse 12 is mostly in reference to "false professors" (v 11).

It takes faith and patience and seeking God, maybe crying out, to overcome and be given the reward

If one fails to overcome it's only because God was never with them, because it requires Him to be an "overcomer."

as it the seven churches, found in John's Revelation.

I believe the warnings in the messages to the Asian Churches (and through the entirety of the NT) are admonishments for the purpose of identifying a believer, because true believers will not present a false profession, and many do. It's not as any name could be actually "blotted out" (Rev 3:5), because there will never be a need for the blotting, seeing that God has always known who will be saved.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Hi, and appreciate your reply and comments! If one professes to be in the faith and eventually permanently ceases from it, this manifests it was a false profession they left, not a true one, for true professions means one is reborn, has been given an additional but new nature, has the Spirit indwelling, using the Life of Christ in us (Col 3:4); and the Father's "work" to keep us "desiring" and "doing" His "good pleasure."


I see Heb 6:1, 2 describing going to the Gospel of Christ (rebirth) from the practice of the Law, e.g. "baptisms," here refer to ritualistic practices using the name "washings" to be synonymous with "baptisms" (e.g. Mar7:4; Heb 9:10).


If you're referring to "laying on of hands" I agree, the gifts of the Spirit in the apostolic capacity ceased with the death of the last apostle to die, John. But in this passage it's in the sense of the Old Covenant's usage of Priests and authoritative people of God, mostly in sacrificial related usages of the Law, e.g. the transferring of the sins of the people to an animal about to be sacrificed (Leviticus 16:21; 24:14; Numbers 8:12). This was written to the Hebrews Christians to inform them they could no longer practice it, Christ being the final sacrifice.


If by "full glorification" you mean new body and no more "old man" (sin nature), this is true, as rebirth presently and forever secures our salvation.


Matthew 24, esp. verse 12 is mostly in reference to "false professors" (v 11).


If one fails to overcome it's only because God was never with them, because it requires Him to be an "overcomer."


I believe the warnings in the messages to the Asian Churches (and through the entirety of the NT) are admonishments for the purpose of identifying a believer, because true believers will not present a false profession, and many do. It's not as any name could be actually "blotted out" (Rev 3:5), because there will never be a need for the blotting, seeing that God has always known who will be saved.

I have previously heard of "once saved always saved."

I think a true born again believer can end up in Hell. Because of free choice. For a professor's love to grow cold it has to have once been there. Challenges do come and can stop us. Hebrews 6 mentions tasting the Heavenly gift and the Holy Spirit. The laying on of hands was as with Moses and the judges to impart the Holy Spirit power. And Timothy found his mission with this and the gifts of the Spirit which is still good to do today, to find God's will for us after the common knowledge of scripture. The seven churches were overcomers and needed to overcome yet more or simply persist. They had a choice and were given encouragement.

 

[WordSword]

I have previously heard of "once saved always saved."

I think a true born again believer can end up in Hell. Because of free choice. For a professor's love to grow cold it has to have once been there.

It's ok our belief's differ here, and your comment is the norm for many, but a false professor is only departing from a false position, not from a regenerate position (rebirth).

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

It's ok our belief's differ here, and your comment is the norm for many, but a false professor is only departing from a false position, not from a regenerate position (rebirth).

I turned to God with my whole heart when 18 years old, attended church, the gifts of the Spirit at church together with teaching led me to believe I needed to be born again, make the way straight for the Spirit to come into my heart... I was born again when I was 28 years old. I surrendered and started being gentle. But all that year I was be verbally abused on the way home, by a deacon who would give me a lift, each Sunday. He was angry, cussing after church, calling a pastor's kids brats... After sacred lyrics, words in prayer, preaching, the laying on of hands... my mind was on the sacred, but straight after, in the car, it was cussing, grumbling, blasphemy, belittlement. And I started out really trusting him. I suffer from OCD so in my mind the sensitive and special and sacred things are drawn together with the foul and profane, and I suffer. I was on the path to the sin with no repentance. I was genuine, and had to realise my future and cry out to God for deliverance to recover instead. And did.

Some genuine people can be mistaken for false professors.

 

[WordSword]

Some genuine people can be mistaken for false professors.

True my friend, and thankfully those in the Book of Life will not be ultimately deceived concerning salvific truth (Mat 24:24); and that we "are kept by the power of God through faith" (1Pe 1:5).

Appreciate the sensitive sharing, God bless!