“Eternal Salvation”

[fide]

Gill was a Calvinist. In their theology, it's impossible for anyone to fall away because they're irresistibly chosen from eternity past. He's just echoing Calvin, not scripture.

Sadly, I suspect that both Calvin and Gill (of whom I have no knowledge at all) sincerely believed they were "faithful to the Word of God". The intention of and reality in the Lord, in the beginning, was clear:

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
​

Sadly, what is is no longer recognized in the fractured, denominationalized "church" of today.

And the prayer of Jesus can hardly be heard among all the various "gospels" being proclaimed.

John 17:20 “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,
23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.​

 

[WordSword]

In context, I see "fallen from grace" to mean, you have fallen from the way of grace back into the way of works (circumcision), placing yourself outside the realm of divine favor, because gaining God's favor by observing the law (circumcision) and receiving it by grace are mutually exclusive (2 Peter 3:17).

I like your comment because it's clear in the way you explain your meaning. Though, myself I see Scripture intending the profession of one's belief, which may be genuine or eventually discover not genuine, and this is where most of the confusion lies. We start with our profession and if it's genuine it will never stop, thus when one stops confessing faith, that is, leaves the outward practice of it and never returns, the profession was not genuine, thus the person was not reborn.

Therefore it's my understanding that one who "departs" (1Ti 4:1) or "falls away" (2Th 2:3) it is one who is willingly ceasing from a hypocritical profession (apostatize), e.g. leaving not salvation but a false profession of salvation, because only genuine professions continue without ceasing.

Good example might be Jhn 15:1, Jesus used the phrase "Every branch in Me":

Gill- "There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to he in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him. These branches are unfruitful ones; what fruit they seemed to have, withers away, and proves not to be genuine fruit; what fruit they bring forth is to themselves, and not to the glory of God, being none of the fruits of his Spirit and grace."
John 15 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

 

[WordSword]

Gill was a Calvinist. In their theology, it's impossible for anyone to fall away because they're irresistibly chosen from eternity past. He's just echoing Calvin, not scripture.

It does look that way, but it really isn't. Concerning Calvinism, it is my opinion it is only partly right. I don't agree that only God chooses certain souls to salvation, but instead it's only God Who knows are going to choose salvation; and the term "irresistibility" is only correct in relation to what God does to keep one in His hand (Phl 2:13). This "work" guarantees that one will never want to return to the desires of the old man, but rather continue in "desiring and doing His good pleasure."

 

[BNR32FAN]

I like your comment because it's clear in the way you explain your meaning. Though, myself I see Scripture intending the profession of one's belief, which may be genuine or eventually discover not genuine, and this is where most of the confusion lies. We start with our profession and if it's genuine it will never stop, thus when one stops confessing faith, that is, leaves the outward practice of it and never returns, the profession was not genuine, thus the person was not reborn.

Therefore it's my understanding that one who "departs" (1Ti 4:1) or "falls away" (2Th 2:3) it is one who is willingly ceasing from a hypocritical profession (apostatize), e.g. leaving not salvation but a false profession of salvation, because only genuine professions continue without ceasing.

Good example might be Jhn 15:1, Jesus used the phrase "Every branch in Me":

Gill- "There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to he in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him. These branches are unfruitful ones; what fruit they seemed to have, withers away, and proves not to be genuine fruit; what fruit they bring forth is to themselves, and not to the glory of God, being none of the fruits of his Spirit and grace."
John 15 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

This would be a contradiction to what Jesus actually said. What Gill would actually be saying is that the branches that were cut off were not actually in Christ they were pretending to be in Christ which is not what Jesus said. Gill is referring to tares which are not truly in Christ because they tares are planted by the evil one not by The Father. No one can come to Christ unless The Father draws him. This would mean that what Jesus actually said in verse 2 is not correct.

 

[WordSword]

This would be a contradiction to what Jesus actually said. What Gill would actually be saying is that the branches that were cut off were not actually in Christ they were pretending to be in Christ which is not what Jesus said. Gill is referring to tares which are not truly in Christ because they tares are planted by the evil one not by The Father. No one can come to Christ unless The Father draws him. This would mean that what Jesus actually said in verse 2 is not correct.

The most I can say presently is that our walk is suppose to unceasingly manifest our profession (1Ti 6:12).

 

[BNR32FAN]

The most I can say presently is that our walk is suppose to unceasingly manifest our profession (1Ti 6:12).

Have you considered His audience in this message, who He is speaking to, and the implications of verses 4 and 7?

 

[WordSword]

Have you considered His audience in this message, who He is speaking to, and the implications of verses 4 and 7?

Paul is instructing Timothy with doctrine with which to instruct Christian servants and their masters. Verses 3-5 are for identifying any who are unbelievers, and v 7 is in reference to all in this world.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul is instructing Timothy with doctrine with which to instruct Christian servants and their masters. Verses 3-5 are for identifying any who are unbelievers, and v 7 is in reference to all in this world.

No I was referring to John 15. John 15:4 John 15:7 think about the implications of these verses as it pertains to His audience.

 

[Clare73]

I like your comment because it's clear in the way you explain your meaning. Though, myself I see Scripture intending the profession of one's belief, which may be genuine or eventually discover not genuine, and this is where most of the confusion lies. We start with our profession and if it's genuine it will never stop, thus when one stops confessing faith, that is, leaves the outward practice of it and never returns, the profession was not genuine, thus the person was not reborn.

Therefore it's my understanding that one who "departs" (1Ti 4:1) or "falls away" (2Th 2:3) it is one who is willingly ceasing from a hypocritical profession (apostatize), e.g. leaving not salvation but a false profession of salvation, because only genuine professions continue without ceasing.

Yes, I am in agreemet with that doctrine, also referred to in 1 John 2:19.

However, falling away, lapsing, apostasy is not the subject of Galatians 5:4, which is not about "falling away" from the gospel, but is about "adding to" the gospel, adding circumcision to faith as necessary for salvation (Galatians 3:3, 10-14, Galatians 4:9-10, etc.) being insisted on by the Judaizers; i.e., false brothers (Galatians 2:4-5).

And by adding works to the gospel, they were falling out of the gospel of grace and into a gospel of works.
It's not about falling away from the faith/salvation, it's about "improving" the faith/salvation.

Good example might be Jhn 15:1, Jesus used the phrase "Every branch in Me":

Gill- "There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to he in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him. These branches are unfruitful ones; what fruit they seemed to have, withers away, and proves not to be genuine fruit; what fruit they bring forth is to themselves, and not to the glory of God, being none of the fruits of his Spirit and grace."
John 15 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

 

[BNR32FAN]

I like your comment because it's clear in the way you explain your meaning. Though, myself I see Scripture intending the profession of one's belief, which may be genuine or eventually discover not genuine, and this is where most of the confusion lies. We start with our profession and if it's genuine it will never stop, thus when one stops confessing faith, that is, leaves the outward practice of it and never returns, the profession was not genuine, thus the person was not reborn.

Therefore it's my understanding that one who "departs" (1Ti 4:1) or "falls away" (2Th 2:3) it is one who is willingly ceasing from a hypocritical profession (apostatize), e.g. leaving not salvation but a false profession of salvation, because only genuine professions continue without ceasing.

Good example might be Jhn 15:1, Jesus used the phrase "Every branch in Me":

Gill- "There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to he in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him. These branches are unfruitful ones; what fruit they seemed to have, withers away, and proves not to be genuine fruit; what fruit they bring forth is to themselves, and not to the glory of God, being none of the fruits of his Spirit and grace."
John 15 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

His explanation of verse 7 doesn’t seem to take into account the word “if” in that statement.

“yea, there is a promise that they "shall continue in the Son and in the Father," 1 John 2:24;”

I’m not seeing any promise that they shall continue in the Son and The Father here.

“As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This isn’t a promise it’s a condition. Let what you heard remain in you. If what you heard remains in you, you will remain in the Son and The Father. In other words if you let what you heard remain in you, you will remain in God.

 

[WordSword]

It's not about falling away from the faith/salvation, it's about "improving" the faith/salvation.

I believe the subject is only a supposition about falling out of salvation and not that they actually could.
Gal 5:4 is a supposition that "if ye be circumcised" (v 2), iow, if it were possible to be under the Law and Christianity; and that if you truly choose to accept the Law as justification, if would be as if you lost saving grace. Thus, it intends that one cannot lose grace anymore than one could be justified by the Law.

Paul manifested that they never went as far as to do what the deceivers were attempting to get them to do (Gal 5:10). His accusation was "who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth," not "did not obey the truth" (v 7).

 

[BNR32FAN]

I believe the subject is only a supposition about falling out of salvation and not that they actually could.
Gal 5:4 is a supposition that "if ye be circumcised" (v 2), iow, if it were possible to be under the Law and Christianity; and that if you truly choose to accept the Law as justification, if would be as if you lost saving grace. Thus, it intends that one cannot lose grace anymore than one could be justified by the Law.

Paul manifested that they never went as far as to do what the deceivers were attempting to get them to do (Gal 5:10). His accusation was "who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth," not "did not obey the truth" (v 7).

His words were you have been severed from Christ past tense and fallen from grace past tense.


“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Clare73]

I believe the subject is only a supposition about falling out of salvation and not that they actually could.

It's about "falling out of (the gospel of) grace and into (the gospel of) works, adding the law to the gospel. It's not about apostasy and salvation.

Gal 5:4 is a supposition that "if ye be circumcised" (v 2), iow, if it were possible to be under the Law and Christianity; and that if you truly choose to accept the Law as justification, if would be as if you lost saving grace. Thus, it intends that one cannot lose grace anymore than one could be justified by the Law.

Yes, it's not about losing grace, it's about a contrast of two gospels, one of grace and the other of works (Galatians 1:6-9).

Paul manifested that they never went as far as to do what the deceivers were attempting to get them to do (Gal 5:10). His accusation was "who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth," not "did not obey the truth" (v 7).

Agreed. . .

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's about "falling out of (the gospel of) grace and into (the gospel of) works, adding the law to the gospel. It's not about apostasy and salvation.
Yes, it's not about losing grace, it's about a contrast of two gospels, one of grace and the other of works (Galatians 1:6-9).
Agreed. . .

It’s plainly stated in the past tense. You have been severed from Christ you have fallen from grace.

 

[Clare73]

It’s plainly stated in the past tense. You have been severed from Christ you have fallen from grace.

My text has "alienated" (Gr: katargeo--discharged, released, rendered ineffective, Romans 7:2) from Christ, and "fallen away" (Gr: ekpipto--fall away from God's course, 2 Peter 3:17) from grace.

 

[BNR32FAN]

My text has "alienated" (Gr: katargeo--discharged, released, rendered ineffective, Romans 7:2) from Christ, and "fallen away" (Gr: ekpipto--fall away from God's course, 2 Peter 3:17) from grace.

but it’s past tense right? Which means they have committed the sin. It’s not a hypothetical situation if it’s past tense.

 

[WordSword]

His words were you have been severed from Christ past tense and fallen from grace past tense.

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Albert Barnes: "Ye are fallen from grace" - 'Its simple and obvious meaning is, that if a man who has been a professed Christian should be justified by his own conformity to the Law, and adopt that mode of justification, then that would amount to a rejection of the mode of salvation by Christ, and would be a renouncing of the plan of justification by grace.

"The two systems cannot be united. The adoption of the one is, in fact, a rejection of the other. Christ will be “a whole Saviour,” or none. This passage, therefore. cannot be adduced to prove that any true Christian has in fact fallen away from grace, unless it proves also that man may be justified by the deeds of the Law, contrary to the repeated declarations of Paul himself. The word “grace” here, does not mean grace in the sense of personal religion, it means the “system” of salvation by grace, in contradistinction from that by merit or by works - the system of the gospel.'"

 

[Clare73]

but it’s past tense right? Which means they have committed the sin. It’s not a hypothetical situation if it’s past tense.

Yeah. . .it seems that way. But the lack of apostasy from Christianity seems to mitigate it all somehow. . .like a mistake that is not really apprehended.

 

[fhansen]

In Christianity, one who is reborn is identified by God working within, which keep us from ever again willing after the sin nature (old man) - Phl 2:13); and this is a permanent work, as nothing God does in Christ for the Christian is temporary (Rom 11:29).

But wait a minute. Are you saying that a born again never wants to sin again??

There is only one strain of salvation--"Eternal salvation" (Heb 5:9), which is an "everlasting consolation" (2Th 2:16) and an "eternal glory" (2Ti 2:10). If it's not permanent it's not salvation, for the crux of salvation designs the intention of being in permanent and unbroken fellowship with God, which only Christianity provides. In Christianity, one who is reborn is identified by God working within, which keep us from ever again willing after the sin nature (old man) - Phl 2:13); and this is a permanent work, as nothing God does in Christ for the Christian is temporary (Rom 11:29).

The way of the Law for the believing Jews was works related, as forgiveness was granted for obedience maintained, but withdrawn in disobedience persisted. But God always caused the believers to return to Him. This works-type method gives rise to self-dependence in believers today, misunderstanding the difference between the two administrations. In the New Covenant the Spirit of God indwells the believer and uses the Life of Christ and the nature "created" in His image (Col 3:10) to "keep you from falling" (Jde 1:24). Thus one who is only nominally professing Christianity (Mat 15:8) will eventually apostatize (revealing faithlessness), as the "fruit" will always manifest the "tree" (Mat 12:33).

Lacking an administrative differentiation between the two Covenants is only one of a believer's difficulty. The other is the difficulty that results in misunderstanding certain Scriptures that seem to conflict with one another (but never really do), esp. those concerning the permanency of salvation, and the most important growth truths are going to be the most difficulty to learn. It is this appearance of contradiction, though all are actually in agreement, that teaches the Bible student to remain in persistent study and prayer for guidance in "the Word of Truth" (2Ti 2:15).

One of many examples is Gal 5:4: "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." I believe the point of this passage is like saying, "It would be as though you have fallen from grace, if you could be justified by the Law." As we know, Scripture repeatedly makes it clear that the Law's intention was not to justify but to reveal what justification is, for "a man is not justified by the works of the law" (Gal 2:16; Gal 3:11).

It might be said that one cannot fall from grace any more than one could be justified by the Law: “Whosoever of you are justified by the law” – ‘on the supposition that any of you are justified by the Law; or if, as you seem to suppose, any are justified by the Law. The apostle does not say that this had in fact ever occurred; but he merely makes a supposition. If such a thing should or could occur, it would follow that you had fallen from grace’” (Albert Barnes – 1798- 1870).

“Ye are fallen from grace”; ‘that is, either from that grace which they professed to have; for there might be some in these churches, as in others, who were only nominal Christians, and formal professors; who had declared they saw themselves lost and undone sinners, destitute of a righteousness, and professed to believe in Christ alone for righteousness and strength, but now trusted in themselves, and in the works of the law.’” – John Gill (1697-1771)

But we can fall from grace, because grace is more than favor; it’s the life of God in us. And we can walk away from that relationship, we can fail to remain in Him thus losing that “righteousness and strength” that comes through Christ alone.

At justification we’re actually made just/righteous, not merely forgiven of sin. And we can continue to walk in that state of justice, living and empowered by the Spirit, or we can alternatively turn back away from it, from Him, by living very unjustly, by persistence in such grave or serious sin that love is opposed and destroyed in us by it.

 

[WordSword]

But wait a minute. Are you saying that a born again never wants to sin again??

I like the way you phrased this because it's clear and applicable to the issue! It's the old man (flesh or sin nature) in us that desires to sin, and thankfully we are no longer in or after it (Ro 8:9). With our new nature we will never "sin willfully" (Heb 10:26; Num 15:30). This answers to Paul's admission in
Rom 7:25).