“Depart From Me I Never Knew You" - Who is Jesus talking to?

St_Worm2

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Furthermore, What do you think John is speaking about at the opening of the gospel of John when it says In the beginning was the word and the word was with G-d and the word was G-d? What Word is John speaking about? There is only 1 word that existed when John penned those words and it aint the new testament.

Hi BR, please elaborate because I think I may be misunderstanding you. The text says that Yeshua, the "Word", was in the beginning with God, and that He, the "Word", WAS God, right? The Torah and the NT are God's breathed words to be sure, but the words He speaks aren't "Him", anymore than the words that we speak are "us", are they :scratch:

Thanks!

--David
 
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John Hyperspace

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That was the change in the law that the writer of Hebrews is referring to. The priesthood has changed. It was added because of transgression. Transgression in the wilderness when they all were the only ones who did not fall into sin and had to kill all of thier brothers and sisters.

The question is why? Why was there a change in the priesthood? Why isn't Jesus of the order of Aaron? Why? As the writer asks, if perfection was of Sinai, why the need for another priesthood other than that of Aaron?

I don't understand what you are saying " under the law", does that mean now we walk according to the dictates of our own heart?

What is the "dictates of your own heart" at this point? Is the only reason you aren't out murdering, raping and stealing because God commands you do not these things? Is the commandment and fear of retribution what causes you to do no murder? Is your heart filled with murderous and wicked thoughts right now? And the only thing making you "act" like a decent human is your fear of being caught and punished if you murder your neighbor and steal his belongings? Is the only reason you act like a good person, fear of being punished for hurting others?

If society collapsed into being without law tomorrow: would you be out pillaging, raping, stealing and murdering? Do you really need to be threatened into not hurting others? You tell me, what is the dictates of your own heart, and I will tell you whether or not you are under the law.
 
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gadar perets

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wow you lot are heavy on the precious report button on this site

let me clarify

oxymoron
ˌɒksɪˈmɔːrɒn/
noun
  1. a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g. faith unfaithful kept him falsely true ).
- judaism a religion based on the observance of the law
-messianic ,one who believes Jesus is the messiah thus salvation by grace .
put them together and you get
-messianic /judaism = oxymoron

not a goad not a flame -simply a fact .
I understand why you believe "Messianic Judaism" is an oxymoron, but your statement, "judaism a religion based on the observance of the law," does not aid in your conclusion.

Grace and law are not incompatible terms. Salvation by grace does not mean one no longer obeys the law. We are saved by grace through faith. The faith that we have actually establishes the law (makes it to stand). We stand in grace (Romans 5:2) and the law stands through faith.

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish (Greek - to stand) the law. Romans 3:31

What then? shall we sin (break the law - 1 John 3:4), because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Romans 6:15
The grace of God was upon Yeshua while he lived obedient to the law (Luke 2:40). We are saved by grace, but ordained unto good works which include obedience to the law (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Had you said, "judaism a religion based on salvation and justification by law and which rejects Yeshua as the Messiah," it would lend itself more to your conclusion.
 
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1John2:4

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The question is why? Why was there a change in the priesthood? Why isn't Jesus of the order of Aaron? Why? As the writer asks, if perfection was of Sinai, why the need for another priesthood other than that of
Because the Messiah came from Judah not Levi
 
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1John2:4

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The question is why? Why was there a change in the priesthood? Why isn't Jesus of the order of Aaron? Why? As the writer asks, if perfection was of Sinai, why the need for another priesthood other than that of Aaron?



What is the "dictates of your own heart" at this point? Is the only reason you aren't out murdering, raping and stealing because God commands you do not these things? Is the commandment and fear of retribution what causes you to do no murder? Is your heart filled with murderous and wicked thoughts right now? And the only thing making you "act" like a decent human is your fear of being caught and punished if you murder your neighbor and steal his belongings? Is the only reason you act like a good person, fear of being punished for hurting others?

If society collapsed into being without law tomorrow: would you be out pillaging, raping, stealing and murdering? Do you really need to be threatened into not hurting others? You tell me, what is the dictates of your own heart, and I will tell you whether or not you are under the law.
Fearing God is the begining of wisdom. If we fear Him we will live in obidience and not be so quick to sin. Look at Hebrews 10:26 if you fear God that verse should make a person tremble. People are so quick(myself included) to excuse sin like it is no big deal. It is a big deal the fear of the Lord is what is needed in our lives today. I pray that I continue to grow in the fear of God so the dictates of my heart are to follow the Word of God. I will try to strive towards that mark everyday not just some of the commandments but even the Sabbaths which seamed to be pretty important to God in the Bible. This is not for salvation because when I truly repent (turn from my sin) I am saved by the blood of the lamb from the bondge of sin. My wedding garments are made clean by His ultimate sacrifice. However after we are saved we will all have to make an account of our unrepentant sin at the end of the age so I pray that I will continue to repent until He finishes a good work in me.The law (Word of God) shows me what sin is so that I can repent of it. Paul said he had not know sin except by the law. A question for you, are you only lead by the law in your heart? Does it contradict the written word? We are called to test the spirits and if they conflict with the Word we then determine if they are they truth. What sets you apart from Ghandi or other non believers, They do not murder and they love humanity yet they are not of His fold. They do not have murder and hate in their hearts. He said if you love me keep my commandments!! Revelation states that the patience of the saints is those who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Yeshua.
 
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gadar perets

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so we see how incorrect your accusatory assumption is for not only were the first apostles in agreement with what paul preached but they encouraged him to continue to preach it .and they at no time imposed nor eve suggested imposing the observance of the law upon any one .but we see in FULL agreement with paul who, though having No substantial contact with them, was shown the by the Spirit of God the SAME gospel the earlier apostles were preaching ( which is a miracle of the power of the holy Spirit in men -error is known when one comes preaching "another gospel which is NOT in agreement - but we see here that paul and ALL the apostles were in FULL agreement )
You are assuming Paul preached an anti-law doctrine that the other apostles agreed with based on your and Christianity's incorrect interpretation of Paul's writings. Paul was not anti-law. He was against the misuse of the law as a means to salvation and justification.
 
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CherubRam

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Matthew 7:21 – 23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Who does "you" refer to? False Christians or the Jews (followers of Judaism)?
Both groups call God as "Lord"/"Kurios" or "Adonai".

Why could the "many" people prophesy in Lord's name, perform miracles, drive out demons?
Are their own doings (prophesying, performing miracles, exorcism) fake or "staged", especially from Cessationist perspective?

Are they "anomos" Christians AKA non-Messianic Christians?
In the original Greek manuscript, "evildoers" here are translated from the word "anomos"?
God's will is that we keep His moral commands under the New Covenant. The key to understanding the text is they preform miracles in Christ name and exorcise demons, but they violate the commands of God. In addition they speak of what is to come.
KJ21
And he shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws; and they shall be given into his hand until a time, and times, and the dividing of time.
 
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gadar perets

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Blah blah justifications.
And your meaning is ...?

He opposed it along with all the apostles .they never preached a gospel differing from one another. -but you lot do .
He opposed what? The law? If so, explain Romans 3:31.
 
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CherubRam

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I am not going to say what is what, but Paul spoke for, and against the law. Obviously there is some kind of division in the laws. So the question is, what is the Old Covenant Laws, and what is the New Covenant Laws? How is the New Covenant not like the Old Covenant?
Jeremiah 31:32
It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
 
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visionary

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JellyQuest said:
so we see how incorrect your accusatory assumption is for not only were the first apostles in agreement with what paul preached but they encouraged him to continue to preach it .and they at no time imposed nor eve suggested imposing the observance of the law upon any one .but we see in FULL agreement with paul who, though having No substantial contact with them, was shown the by the Spirit of God the SAME gospel the earlier apostles were preaching ( which is a miracle of the power of the holy Spirit in men -error is known when one comes preaching "another gospel which is NOT in agreement - but we see here that paul and ALL the apostles were in FULL agreement )
You have place the idea that I blame Paul for anti-Torah, rather than the misinterpretations of the meaning of his letters. I am in agreement with you on the apostles preaching the same gospel as THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE that Yeshua lived and taught. What I am saying is that Paul's letters have caused a rift of problems because of misinterpretations for abusive misdirects leading away from Judaism as it was lived in and taught by Yeshua and His apostles.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Fearing God is the begining of wisdom. If we fear Him we will live in obidience and not be so quick to sin. Look at Hebrews 10:26 if you fear God that verse should make a person tremble. People are so quick(myself included) to excuse sin like it is no big deal. It is a big deal the fear of the Lord is what is needed in our lives today. I pray that I continue to grow in the fear of God so the dictates of my heart are to follow the Word of God. I will try to strive towards that mark everyday not just some of the commandments but even the Sabbaths which seamed to be pretty important to God in the Bible. This is not for salvation because when I truly repent (turn from my sin) I am saved by the blood of the lamb from the bondge of sin. My wedding garments are made clean by His ultimate sacrifice. However after we are saved we will all have to make an account of our unrepentant sin at the end of the age so I pray that I will continue to repent until He finishes a good work in me.The law (Word of God) shows me what sin is so that I can repent of it. Paul said he had not know sin except by the law. A question for you, are you only lead by the law in your heart? Does it contradict the written word? We are called to test the spirits and if they conflict with the Word we then determine if they are they truth. What sets you apart from Ghandi or other non believers, They do not murder and they love humanity yet they are not of His fold. They do not have murder and hate in their hearts. He said if you love me keep my commandments!! Revelation states that the patience of the saints is those who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Yeshua.

I mean no offense, honestly; but you are dodging the question, or, not understanding it. I am not talking about keeping commandments (which, and, how?) I am asking the same simple question asked by the author of the letter to the Hebrews 7:11
 
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pat34lee

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For those who think they are under the new covenant:

What are the laws written on your heart? If they are written there, you should know them perfectly. BY HEART, as it were. And no two people should tell me anything different if they are both under the NC. Anyone care to try?

I would be willing to bet that few who believe the NC is in effect can even list the 10 commandments without looking them up, and they are just the basics.
 
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Shibolet

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For those who think they are under the new covenant:

What are the laws written on your heart? If they are written there, you should know them perfectly. BY HEART, as it were. And no two people should tell me anything different if they are both under the NC. Anyone care to try?

I would be willing to bet that few who believe the NC is in effect can even list the 10 commandments without looking them up, and they are just the basics.

I am sure we are under the New Covenant. After all, it was established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. The New Covenant is the same as the "Jewish New World Order."

The Law written in my heart are the laws established in the Decalogue. The ritual laws that complete the 613 commandments, they operate as fences around the Torah with instructions on how to understand the Moral Law.
 
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Shibolet

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I am not going to say what is what, but Paul spoke for, and against the law. Obviously there is some kind of division in the laws. So the question is, what is the Old Covenant Laws, and what is the New Covenant Laws? How is the New Covenant not like the Old Covenant?Jeremiah 31:32

It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.

The New Covenant is the same as the Sinaitic Covenant. The only difference is that Torah according to the previous covenant used to be taught by Priests, Scribes and Prophets. Today, we don't need them anymore. Torah under the New Covenant is no longer too baffling for us nor it is beyond our reach. It is not in heaven that we should say, "Who among us can go up to heavens and get it for us and impart it to us that we may observe it?" Neither it is beyond the sea that we should say, "Who among us can cross to the other side of the sea and get it for us and impart it to us that we may observe it?" No, the Torah is very close to us in our own mouth and in our own heart; we have only to observe it. (Deuteronomy 30:11-14)
 
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BukiRob

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First thing first: I want to ask you, why Jesus is not of the order of Aaron? Same question as here: Hebrews 7:11. This question is absolutely crucial to your understanding being proposed.

Yes, because it is holy. The question is not, is the law holy? The question is, are we? And the answer is a resounding, no! We know we are not holy precisely because the law is holy. That is the purpose of the law: to stop every mouth from boasting in the law: Romans 3:19. Notice that whatever the law says, it says to them under the law. The law does not say anything to them that are under grace.

The purpose of law is to execute wrath on them who would otherwise break it without conscience. Do you, personally, need to be commanded to 'do no murder'? Hopefully you do not. Tell me why you do not need some exterior force commanding you to 'do no murder, or else you will suffer the consequences of the law': why are you a "law unto yourself" in regards to murder? Do you need a police officer watching you to ensure you don't break into your neighbor's house, throttle him to near death, then steal his belongings? No? Why not? Why do you not need to be 'under the watch of the law' in these cases? What is in you that is "writing the law on your heart"? Now, you answer that and you'll answer why you aren't under the law anymore, unless you intentionally go back to being under it. That is called "drawing back to perdition" and "falling from grace" and there remains "no more sacrifice" under the law of Moses, and order of Aaron. Going back under the law is placing yourself back into condemnation and wrath for which there is no more sacrifice. You are removing from out of the order of Melchisedec and backward into the order of Aaron where only death, wrath, corruption and condemnation are the curse of the law. This is why Jesus says "Depart from Me, you cursed; I never knew you" because they never knew His sufficient grace. They counted His grace as insufficient, and lacking, and needing them to add their own works of the law to it; profaning it.



Yes, the Word/Torah is eternal. Jesus was the living, walking Torah. He showed us how we can fulfill the law by the Spirit. Make note of what happened to the living, walking Torah. Died in the flesh, raised in the Spirit. That is the sign: death in the letter, life in the Spirit: Romans 7:6. All of the law is fulfilled in "love your neighbor": Romans 13:8, Galatians 5:14, James 2:8

Those who "hate their brother" are those for whom the law is intended, and for whom it was delivered: 1 Timothy 1:9, 1 John 2:9: the law was not made for those who love their neighbor. A person that has unfeigned love for others has transitioned out from needing to be under the law, and into the grace of liberty; he has passed from "death to life": 1 John 3:14. Being in a state of liberty from the law, even though we sin, that sin is not imputed (neither can it be, as there is no condemnation apart from the law) because the heart is in the right place; which is why the Gentiles who didn't have the letter of the Torah still fulfilled the Spirit of the Torah, written in their hearts: Romans 2:14-15.



It is clear, and I completely agree.



The Torah is eternal, it is always there, it has not "passed away": but the one under grace is not under the law any longer. Of what order is your high priest? Aaron, or, Melchizedek? If you are under the law, then the High Priest of the order of Melchizedek cannot be your high priest, and does not know you as one of His order.



1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.


You are not under the law of sin and death.

Again, for everything you have said, you have failed to explain why the apsotles all observed the Torah, feast days and Sabbath. You also have failed to address why the church in Asia Minor did this things as well clear up into the 4th century. It is very clear that the Church in Asia minor did not abandon any of these things until they were basically wiped out by the Byzantines.
 
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John Hyperspace

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You are not under the law of sin and death.

I am not under the law, period: Galatians 3:23, Galatians 5:18, Romans 3:19, Galatians 4:21. If I were under the law, Christ could not be my High Priest without the entire priesthood being abomination under the law.

Again, for everything you have said, you have failed to explain why the apsotles all observed the Torah, feast days and Sabbath. You also have failed to address why the church in Asia Minor did this things as well clear up into the 4th century. It is very clear that the Church in Asia minor did not abandon any of these things until they were basically wiped out by the Byzantines.

I'm sorry, but you're also dodging the question. Hebrews 7:11
 
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1John2:4

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I mean no offense, honestly; but you are dodging the question, or, not understanding it. I am not talking about keeping commandments (which, and, how?) I am asking the same simple question asked by the author of the letter to the Hebrews 7:11
I mean no offense either I am not trying to dodge your question. The writer of Hebrews is proving the change in the law is the change in the priesthood that is the change in the law. Why was it a change? Because the Messiah came from Judah not Levi and according to the law the Kohen had to come by the order of Levi. The book of Hebrews 1-8 outlines this change in the priesthood 9-13 demonstrates how it is to be carried out. I hope I answered your question :)
 
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pat34lee

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I am sure we are under the New Covenant. After all, it was established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. The New Covenant is the same as the "Jewish New World Order."

The Law written in my heart are the laws established in the Decalogue. The ritual laws that complete the 613 commandments, they operate as fences around the Torah with instructions on how to understand the Moral Law.

Did you have to learn the laws, in order to follow them? I propose that when the NC comes into effect, we will all know the laws because they will be part of us.
 
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Shibolet

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Did you have to learn the laws, in order to follow them? I propose that when the NC comes into effect we will all know the laws because they will be part of us.

When I was born, I did not know about the laws. So, I had to learn them, although I already followed them according to the culture of my People. Today I follow them because I have learned and understood why we must follow them. That's the beginning of wisdom which is the fear of the Lord and
all who practice it gain sound understanding. (Psalm 111:10; Prov. 1:7)
 
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I am not under the law, period: Galatians 3:23, Galatians 5:18, Romans 3:19, Galatians 4:21. If I were under the law, Christ could not be my High Priest without the entire priesthood being abomination under the law.



I'm sorry, but you're also dodging the question. Hebrews 7:11
Its answered in the post below mine
 
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