“Depart From Me I Never Knew You" - Who is Jesus talking to?

[Neostarwcc]

Matthew 7:21 – 23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Who does "you" refer to? False Christians or the Jews (followers of Judaism)?
Both groups call God as "Lord"/"Kurios" or "Adonai".

Why could the "many" people prophesy in Lord's name, perform miracles, drive out demons?
Are their own doings (prophesying, performing miracles, exorcism) fake or "staged", especially from Cessationist perspective?

Are they "anomos" Christians AKA non-Messianic Christians?
In the original Greek manuscript, "evildoers" here are translated from the word "anomos"?

I don't think that these people were cast into hell by Jesus because they were part of a particular religious group. It's important when examining these verses to see what is being said here. Jesus says in Matthew 7:22 "But those who do the will of my father in Heaven." So, what is the will of the Father? Jesus answers this question in John 6:40.

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
- John 6:40 KJV

So we learn that the will of the Father that Jesus is talking about is belief in Christ. These people were cast into hell for their lack of faith.

Notice, they don't say "But, Lord we believed the gospel." or "But, Lord we had faith that you would save us." or "But, Lord we have done your Father's will." no, they say "Haven't we done many miraculous works in your name?". They relied on their works to get into heaven and their works were not a sufficient reason. It doesn't matter how many miraculous works you have done in Jesus's name. Without faith your works are for naught. Faith in our Lord and Savior is what saves us not our works (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, these people were sent to hell for their lack of faith not because they were part of a particular religious group. That also would explain why Jesus said "I never knew you." Because, if they didn't have faith in Jesus how can Jesus possibly know them?

 

[Thursday]

Matthew 7:21 – 23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Who does "you" refer to? False Christians or the Jews (followers of Judaism)?
Both groups call God as "Lord"/"Kurios" or "Adonai".

Why could the "many" people prophesy in Lord's name, perform miracles, drive out demons?
Are their own doings (prophesying, performing miracles, exorcism) fake or "staged", especially from Cessationist perspective?

Are they "anomos" Christians AKA non-Messianic Christians?
In the original Greek manuscript, "evildoers" here are translated from the word "anomos"?

He is referring to those who never came to help him when he was poor, sick, or in prison.

This is a clear statement that we will be judged for our actions.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Its answered in the post below mine

I must've missed it; is there any way you could quote it?

 

[Shibolet]

I am not going to say what is what, but Paul spoke for, and against the law. Obviously there is some kind of division in the laws. So the question is, what is the Old Covenant Laws, and what is the New Covenant Laws? How is the New Covenant not like the Old Covenant? Jeremiah 31:32. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.

I also believe that Paul spoke for and against the Law. For aka in favor of the Law he spoke when the he said that he had the Law in his mind; and against, when he said he could not help but to serve sin in his flesh. Since sin by definition is the transgression of the Law, his whole life was to live in transgression of the Law.

 

[BukiRob]

I don't think that these people were cast into hell by Jesus because they were part of a particular religious group. It's important when examining these verses to see what is being said here. Jesus says in Matthew 7:22 "But those who do the will of my father in Heaven." So, what is the will of the Father? Jesus answers this question in John 6:40.

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
- John 6:40 KJV

So we learn that the will of the Father that Jesus is talking about is belief in Christ. These people were cast into hell for their lack of faith.

Notice, they don't say "But, Lord we believed the gospel." or "But, Lord we had faith that you would save us." or "But, Lord we have done your Father's will." no, they say "Haven't we done many miraculous works in your name?". They relied on their works to get into heaven and their works were not a sufficient reason. It doesn't matter how many miraculous works you have done in Jesus's name. Without faith your works are for naught. Faith in our Lord and Savior is what saves us not our works (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, these people were sent to hell for their lack of faith not because they were part of a particular religious group. That also would explain why Jesus said "I never knew you." Because, if they didn't have faith in Jesus how can Jesus possibly know them?

Yet, faith WITHOUT works is DEAD.... That's the problem.... the grace only crowd shouts that if you try to "keep the law" that you are nullifying grace.... which is a lie.

The problem is far, far too many "believers" do not even understand or know the purpose of Torah. When you know its purpose you understand why you walk in its ways.

Obedience does not gain you salvation. Never did, never will. Salivation is attained BY FAITH. G-d clearly shows that when he speaks about Abraham.... Abraham BELIEVED G-d and it was CREDITED to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS.

You can not have one without the other. If you have real faith you will walk as messiah walked. You will desire to pursue righteousness. Not in your own world view of what is righteous but that which is DEFINED in scripture.

The PURPOSE of Torah is to SHOW and TEACH us HOW to love one another and HOW to love G-d. To those who say "well the NT says we dont need Torah that the Holy Spirit will lead us...." Great...what dose scripture tell you about the HS and where he will lead? HE WILL LEAD YOU IN ALL TRUTH.... What is Truth? Scripture declares that the TORAH IS TRUTH.

So, if you view truth as bondage or you hate the Torah you have a problem....

 

[BukiRob]

I also believe that Paul spoke for and against the Law. For aka in favor of the Law he spoke when the he said that he had the Law in his mind; and against, when he said he could not help but to serve sin in his flesh. Since sin by definition is the transgression of the Law, his whole life was to live in transgression of the Law.

I think you are missing what Pharisee Paul is saying. He is AGAINST the traditions of the day taught as the Oral law which in several cases directly conflicted the Torah itself. You see this when Yeshua is railing against the Pharisee's and their violation of the commandment: Honor your mother and father....
Matthew 15:
1 Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3 And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4“For God said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,’ and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.’ 5“But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,” 6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

In another Gospel Yeshua finishes by saying "and you do many things like this..."
Paul is teaching against the traditions that set aside the Torah in deference to man-made traditions. This has LONG been a problem with man. We see it first appear in the Garden itself when Eve answering the serpent failed to quote what Adonia had said to Adam. Adam failed to give Eve the truth and when she spoke a lie to the serpent he had her.... when she said " we may not TOUCH it...." she was doomed. She touched and saw that she did not die the serpent was able to paint G-d as the perpetrator of a lie....

It is the TRADITIONS that contradict Torah that Paul is teaching against

 

[CherubRam]

Matthew 7:21 – 23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Who does "you" refer to? False Christians or the Jews (followers of Judaism)?
Both groups call God as "Lord"/"Kurios" or "Adonai".

Why could the "many" people prophesy in Lord's name, perform miracles, drive out demons?
Are their own doings (prophesying, performing miracles, exorcism) fake or "staged", especially from Cessationist perspective?

Are they "anomos" Christians AKA non-Messianic Christians?
In the original Greek manuscript, "evildoers" here are translated from the word "anomos"?

Of the many Christians that are called, few are chosen. Minority not mainstream.

 

[Jezmeyah]

Hi Jezmeyah, I was baptized as an infant, grew up in the church and always believed I was a Christian (until the day I actually became one, that is). I never took the Lord's name in vain during those years that I remember, so it is possible to be a non-C and not mock God, and I believe there are still many out there today who, like me, "believe" they are Christians, but frighteningly, they are not

There are also people, some members here at CF in fact, who dabble in the occult and in other practices that are clearly forbidden by God, but they truly believe their "powers/insights/abilities" come from Him.

Like those in v22, I believe there are going to be a whole lot of people who are going to be shocked when they here the verdict, "I never knew you, depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness", read to them at the Great White Throne. Some will know that their claim of being a Christian was a ruse all along, but I think that many will be genuinely blown-away (and those who believe they can work their way into Heaven by being "good" and/or by doing good works, rather than admitting they are w/o hope apart from Him and surrendering their lives to Him in faith, will surely be at the top of that list).

So sorry that it's been this long since I posted in this thread. I was just checking on the list backlog and found your post to me. Somehow I missed it the first time.

I hadn't thought of it in the way you put it. Something to pray about of any to whom it may one day - by prayer - not apply.

HAPPY NEW YEAR

--David

 

[JoeP222w]

He is addressing those who claim to be Christians but live a lie and who are disobedient to Christ.

 

[Norbert L]

Matthew 7:21 – 23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Who does "you" refer to? False Christians or the Jews (followers of Judaism)?
Both groups call God as "Lord"/"Kurios" or "Adonai".

Why could the "many" people prophesy in Lord's name, perform miracles, drive out demons?
Are their own doings (prophesying, performing miracles, exorcism) fake or "staged", especially from Cessationist perspective?

Are they "anomos" Christians AKA non-Messianic Christians?
In the original Greek manuscript, "evildoers" here are translated from the word "anomos"?

If you want to guess about the meaning of "you" and it is know they are "evildoers" . Perhaps it can also include the pagans who believe in Zeus so much they don't know who they're actually standing before.

 

[CherubRam]

God's will is that we keep His moral commands under the New Covenant. The key to understanding the text is they preform miracles in Christ name and exorcise demons, but they violate the commands of God. In addition they speak of what is to come.
KJ21
And he shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws; and they shall be given into his hand until a time, and times, and the dividing of time.

Bump

 

[DennisTate]

Matthew 7:21 – 23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Who does "you" refer to? False Christians or the Jews (followers of Judaism)?
Both groups call God as "Lord"/"Kurios" or "Adonai".

Why could the "many" people prophesy in Lord's name, perform miracles, drive out demons?
Are their own doings (prophesying, performing miracles, exorcism) fake or "staged", especially from Cessationist perspective?

Are they "anomos" Christians AKA non-Messianic Christians?
In the original Greek manuscript, "evildoers" here are translated from the word "anomos"?

In my opinion a Christian or Messianic Jew or Messianic Gentile who
has almost no understanding of some of the teaching of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov
and has no open mind to Rabbi Nachman being a partial fulfillment of.......

John 14:12

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

doesn't understand the Sermon on the Mount very well at all.

I personally believe that Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus and Rabbi Nachman of Breslov
were drinking from the same well.

Nachman of Breslov - Wikiquote

"Know! You need to judge every person favorably, even someone who is completely wicked, you need to search and find any little bit of good. By finding in him a little good and judging him favorably you actually bring him over to the side of merit and you can return him in teshuva (LM 282)

"A person also needs to find in himself a little bit of good. Because no matter how low a person is, how can it be that he didn’t do one good thing in his entire life? (ibid)

"Every single Jew has a point in them that is uniquely precious. And it is with this point that he bestows upon, enlightens, and arouses the heart of others. We all need to accept this arousal and this unique point from each other. As it says, “And they receive one from another” (Isaiah 3). (LM 34)

"Every single Jew has in him a portion of God above. (LM 35)

"When a person falls from his level he should know that it’s heaven-sent, because going down is needed in order to go up, therefore he fell, in order that he arouses himself more to come close to Hashem. Advice for him - Begin anew to enter into service of Hashem as if you have never yet even begun (Ibid)

"Whenever a person rises from one level to the next, it necessitates that he first has a descent before the ascent. Because the purpose of any descent is always in order to ascend. (LM 22)

 

[DennisTate]

Bump

Your timing was inspired CherubRam!

 

[CherubRam]

I also believe that Paul spoke for and against the Law. For aka in favor of the Law he spoke when the he said that he had the Law in his mind; and against, when he said he could not help but to serve sin in his flesh. Since sin by definition is the transgression of the Law, his whole life was to live in transgression of the Law.

The feast and sacrificial laws were governed by the Levitical priesthood, and they are separate from the moral commands of God.

 

[DennisTate]

If you want to guess about the meaning of "you" and it is know they are "evildoers" . Perhaps it can also include the pagans who believe in Zeus so much they don't know who they're actually standing before.

Perhaps.... or to Christians or Messianic Jews who
approach the new information being revealed in the latter days
in a manner similar to the apostate Jewish officials who feared
John the Baptist and Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus due to their own
desire for power and influence.

 

[DennisTate]

The feast and sacrificial laws were governed by the Levitical priesthood, and they are separate from the moral commands of God.

I think so too.

What do you personally think of these statements by
Grant R. Jeffrey Ph. D?

"The Sacrificial System Will Continue

One of the most perplexing ideas to students of Scripture is the idea that God intends
that the annual feasts, along with animal sacrifice, will continue into the Millennium.
Many Christians who have studied the prophetic portions of Zechariah 14, Isaiah 66,
and Ezekiel 40 - 48, which clearly describe these Millennial worship ordinations, are
confused by the idea. They ask, "Didn't the sacrifice of Christ eliminate animal sacrifices forever?"

............"Only the complete sacrifice of Jesus could ever totally atone for our sins. However,
God clearly demanded the sacrifices from Adam to Christ. Those sacrifices were acts of
obedience to the direct command of God, as well as acknowledgements of one's own personal
sinfulness and need for God's forgiveness. Animal sacrifices covered the sins of the people
temporarily until the prophesied Messiah would come and offer Himself once and for all as the
necessary atonement for sin. If animal sacrifice can never atone for sin, why would God allow
Israel to resume such sacrifice in the Third Temple, prior to Armageddon, and then demand that
Israel continue such sacrifice in the Millennium? There are two reasons why I believe this is true."

First, the early Jewish - Christian Church continued to offer sacrifices in the first century.".......



.......Second, New Testament writers used the legal sacrificial system to illustrate very important
points concerning Christ's sacrifice on the Cross.......

..... These examples of the way early Jewish believers used God's law to teach great love when
He sacrificed His only Son on the cross will be repeated during the Millennium." (Grant R. Jeffrey,
Messiah, War in the Middle East and the Road to Armageddon, page 317, 318 and 319)

 

[CherubRam]

I think so too.

What do you personally think of these statements by
Grant R. Jeffrey Ph. D?

I do not have any documentation for you, but there seems to be some late additions made to the scriptures by the Hellenistic Jews; for which were added continued feast and sacrifice, with Gentiles taking part. Comparing the DSS and the Septuagint should help solve that problem.

 

[BukiRob]

He is addressing those who claim to be Christians but live a lie and who are disobedient to Christ.

Careful now. For ALL have fallen short.

Being saved does NOT mean you become sinless in your daily life.

 

[JoeP222w]

Being saved does NOT mean you become sinless in your daily life.

I never said that or implied that.

 

[Norbert L]

Perhaps.... or to Christians or Messianic Jews who
approach the new information being revealed in the latter days
in a manner similar to the apostate Jewish officials who feared
John the Baptist and Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus due to their own
desire for power and influence.

What do you mean by new information being revealed in the latter days?