Hell Isn't Necessary

TrinityHerself · Aug 8, 2003

Why is Hell necessary?

I believe in a loving God, who inspired a man, Jesus of Nazareth, to promote peace and love to the regions of the world.

Why do we need to believe in a fiery pit of doom where those who oppose our message (or what we think is God's message) must live for eternity? Where does the Gracious God fit in the Mercy, Forgiveness, and Divine love package? The answer, "In this life," doesn't work for many people. Many people are turned off of Christianity because they were molested by priests, etc., or other things out of their control. When is their chance?

The Christian God is a God of second chances, a God who I believe cares that we grow into loving people. How are we do to so when we recruit our faith by threatening people with eternal death?

My point is, a belief in Hell is unnecessary. We can still make decisions that people would be more happier with Jesus without threatening eternal death, and we can admit that even those who enter the vineyard last of all will still have a chance.

It doesn't mean you can't believe in God anymore. Hell and God are unrelated. The Hell talked about in the Bible (with the exception of Revelation) is not the hell that Christians promote today. It was merely the place of death.

Give it up. For the future of your ministries, your mental well-beings, and your friend's salvation, give Hell up. Reclaim belief in a loving God who doesn't want people to burn for eternity, but wants them to be better people. Get out of this black/white mentality and start letting go and letting God impact people, without the threat of death. Let God be God and stop trying to decide who's at the head of the class and who gets detention.

"And these three remain: Faith, Hope, and Love. But the greatest of these is love."

genisislife · Aug 8, 2003

So do you believe that God is just?

Smilin · Aug 8, 2003

TrinityHerself said:
Why is Hell necessary?

The Christian God is a God of second chances, a God who I believe cares that we grow into loving people. How are we do to so when we recruit our faith by threatening people with eternal death?

Very nice point Trinity!

and glad to meet you!

We've covered this before, however it is worth covering again for those who are newer to the forum.

Why would a loving Creator desire to condemn the majority of his creation to eternal torment for:

A. Simply not 'hearing' of the Savior?
B. Not following 'The plan of Salvation'? (Whatever the current consensus on that is)
C. Seeking an alternate spiritual path?

IMO, too many Christians feel that 'threatening their troops' is the only way to keep their followers in line.

And what of Hell and the Christian conscious?
Shouldn't it bother those who preach of eternal punishment that a great man such as Ghandi is doomed, while a serial killer such as Dahmer is in Paradise for simply repenting?

Smilin · Aug 8, 2003

genisislife said:
So do you believe that God is just?

Would not any loving Father?

Revolution Cry · Aug 8, 2003

That's really a good question.

I'll take a page from John Piper. He's got a pretty decent explination:

(prepare yourself ... this is a bit long)

Secular mind-set - I do not mean a mind that has no room for God in it. I do not mean a mind that does not believe the bible is true. I mean a secular mind set is a mindset where man, mankind, our well being, ourselves are at the center of reality. We are the starting point, our needs and our rights are the given in the universe and from there you start. Problems become problems because situations, and circumstances in history don't fit with my rights and my needs. We define problems that way. That is what a problem is. That is the essense of the secular mind-set. We are born with this. I believe it is part of our nature to think this way. Everyday it is reaffirmed, cultivated, and grown by advertising that leans heavily on it, by atheletes because every strut after a big play is modeled after this selfish mind-set, all day long the mentality of being #1 grows out of this mindset. It is called the mind of the flesh by Romans 8:6. It is called the natural man or the natural person in 1st Corinthians 2:14. It is so much a part of this room, apart from the freedom giving holy-spirit that you can barely realize that you even have it, as a fish barely knows it is in water, we can barely know that we are set in a mind set where man, and his right and his goals become the center of all things, defining problems, defining successes, and defining happiness. And we don't know we have it, until you run up against a different mind-set ... the Biblical Mindset.

Biblical Mindset - At first, it is so strange and peculur, that it is called names "folly, foolish and incomprehensible" and the defining mark of this biblical mindset is that it has a radically different starting point. God is the basic given in reality, and God's rights, and Gods goals define reality. They define problems, they define successes. When God said to moses, "Go down to Egypt and you tell them that I Am coming." Moses said, "Whom shall I say sent me?"
God said, "Tell them 'I AM' sent you." "I Am who I Am." Not, I Am who you think I am, or I am who you feel that I am, or I am what I am becoming, or I am what I will be ... I Am who I Am. I Am absolute reality.
I didn't come to be, I had no begining, I have no ending, I cannot be accounted for, or explained.
When we say, how do you explain this act of love, or how do you explain the (Terry Nichols?) holocost, or birth or creation, what we mean is, "how did it get to be that way?" So when you ask, "How do you explain God?" The answer is, "You don't." Because he didn't get to be that way. This is the bottom-line folly of the secular mind, he did not get to be that way, he absolutely IS what he IS. He never came to be, he was never becoming, there is no family of origin to account for his personality, he is absolutely there, and there is where the biblical mindset starts.
And he is there with rights as the creator of the universe. We talk about human rights, and civil rights, but have you ever read an artical about creator rights? They are the ultimate rights of the universe. The ultimate rights of the universe are creator rights, and the ultimate goals of the universe are the goals of the creator, and what constitutes a problem in the universe is what doesn't fit with his goals, and what contridicts his rights. And that is what constitutes the clash in the universe, the difference in a God-centered, God glorifying, God mind-set or "Biblical Mindset" and a man centered mindset that says, I have rights. I can even call God into question, I can put God Almighty in the dock and demand that he explain himself ... is another mindset, and they don't fit very easily.
What is the basic riddle of the universe? Is the basic riddle of the universe how to explain man's rights, and solve his problems, the problems of self determination, or the problem of suffering? Is that the basic riddle of the universe? Or is the basic riddle of the universe ... how can an infinitely Glorious, never begining - never ending, holy, rightous God, display in the creation that he has made, the full range of all his perfections including his Grace, and his wrath in justice?
Which of those is the riddle of the universe? And if you answer, "My problems are the riddle of the universe, my suffering is the riddle of the universe, not how shall God display the full range of his perfection in the universe, then you will not comprehend the Cross of Christ.

So now we are at the Cross. It's where I have been heading. You cannot comprehend the Glory of Christ crucified from a secular mindset. It is incomprensible. The bible says it is foolishness, it is folly, from a secular mindset.
I'm going to cut through the freedom, and the reconcilition that was given for us at the cross and cut straight to the inner most meaning of the cross: as you read this, ask yourself what problem in the universe is God solving by the cross,the death of his son?
'CBH Cranfield'
Romans 3:25 - God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,by his blood through faith. *He did this to demonstrate his justice - his Righteousness -, because in his divine forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished*
Boil that last part down to the basic problem that God is trying to solve. It says that God sent his son and put him in the flesh so that he would become mortal, dieable, killable, murderable, so that God might demonstrate His Righteousness, or justice ... same word in Greek Righteousness = Justice. The problem, evidently, is that God either seems to be, or would be unrighteous and unjust if this didn't happen. His name, reputation, and honor are at stake. And he means to be vindicated in his holyness, in his righteousness, and his justice, and so he puts his son forward to demonstrate his righteousness, to vindicate his name, his reknown. Because God says that his reknown, and his name are the passions of his soul, and he will sacrifice his son to preserve them. It was the will of the lord to bruise him.
People did not steal Jesus away from his father and kill him as ransom. God gave him as his ransom, because he loves his reknown and his righteousness.
So here is the problem ... why was that a problem? Why was the righteousness of God in question and in jeprody? The answer is in the last part of verse 25. It says, "because in his devine forbearance he had left the sins comitted beforehand unpunished."
Get it? For centuries, God had been doing as Psalm 110 says, "He does not deal with us according to our inequities", and therefore, He is WRONG. He's unjust! Unless something happens to set things right. You don't sweep the sins of the world under the rug, and call yourself a righteous judge.
Here is an example:
David is confronted by the prophet Nathan, in verse 9 of 2nd Samual 12, and Nathan, because David comitted adultary with Bathsheba, and he had killed her husband to hide it, and the Prophet comes and he says, "Why have you despised the word of God?" And David says, "I have sinned against the Lord." and Nathan responds, "The Lord has put away your sin."
Just like that, adultery, murder ... gone. Now you tell me if a circuit judge in this city had a cold-blooded murderer and rapist infront of him, with witnesses enough to prove every last possibility, and he says, "Judge, I'm so sorry. I won't do it again." and the Judge says, "Ok, you can go." He will not stay on the bench long, and neither would God be God.
This is a problem, but not for the secular mind-set. The secular mind has never lay awake at night struggling with how God can be kind, and be God. The secular mindset, never wrestles with the question, "Why does the rain fall on the just and the unjust alike? How can that be? How can that be in a holy universe? How can goodness come to man in this universe? How can God be a Holy, just God and treat sinners so well?" Where is anyone wrestling with that problem, that is the central problem of Romans 3:25 and 26.
Verse 23 makes the problem clear: "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
What is sin? It is a God issue, it is a glory issue. Sin is stepping on the Glory of God, and putting it into the dirt. We can imagine David saying, "I didn't dispise you or your word God. I was just hot for this woman and I was scared to death that my kingship would be in jeprody, so I killed her husband. You weren't even on the horizon! What do you mean I dispised you? And God would say, "The creator of the universe, the one who holds your life in being moment by moment, the one who installed you as king, and who has enabled you to defeat lions and bears and Goliath ... wasn't even on the horizon that night. That is what I mean, David, when I say, "Why have you dispised me."
Long before sin is a damage to man, it is a dishonor to God, and that is a problem in the universe. How can a holy God, who esteems his glory, and his reknown, and his holyness, and his justice above all things, just say to a David, "I have put your sin away."
That is a huge problem if you love God and his glory. If you value His Holyness, his righteousness, his justice, as he does, then our foregiveness is a HUGE problem. That God would forgive you is a huge crisis in the cosmos. And there must be a way for God to be both just, and justifier of the unGodly. The problem is that he passed over sins. He just passed over them.
Another illustration, off the top of my head: Suppose there is a group of anarchists who want to blow up the White House, kill the president and his cabinet and all the leaders and throw the nation into chaos. But oweing to some very careful counter-espionage, they are detected in the last minute, and a part of the White House that doesn't have the president is blown up, several people die ... and then the anarchists are found, most are kept alive, and they are brought to trial for treason. They highest crime in the American Constitution. What would it say to the nations, all of whom are watching, if the panel of judges said, "Well since this is your only time being caught like this, we'll let you all go, in fact, we'll clothe you, and send you all on vacations ... if you really want to ruin the analogy, eternal happiness. What would the other nations say about the esteem in which we hold our president? They would say we don't value him very highly, and the security and coherence and stability of this government is not a big deal to us. And that is what it would say about God, if he can just forgive you and let bygones be bygones, and nothing happens.
But, that's not what happened. He did not spare, but rather, he put his son forward to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over sins previously comitted. It was to prove at the present time that he is righteous. Now he could have done it another way. He could have sent all of us to hell and the score would be even. An eternal suffering would be an even score to sin because sin comitted against an infinately Holy God is an infinately hanious act, and therfore deserves an infinately long and painful suffering. God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world world, but so that the world through him might be saved. There is, therefor, between God and hell, and mediator, and a savior. God, in crucifying his son, presented a way for all of those who hide in his son, who say, "Jesus's name and his known and his reknown and his worth are my only hope for right standing with an infinately Holy judge."
The foundation and hope of your salvation is God's love for his glory. He wants you saved, but he want's something more than that. He wants his name to be honored. He wants his righteousness to be vindicated. He wants his holyness established, and so it cost him his son to be glorified in light of us sinners.
One more question here: Is this love? Is a God centered crucifiction loving towards me? Or only toward God? The question betrays the secular mindset. Know why? Because it assumes that for us to be loved, that God must make us the center.
When you look at the cross, do you love the cross because it makes much of you, or because it enables you, an unGodly person, to enjoy making much of God? I wish I could make this land on you. Because if you were to agree that the point of the cross is NOT to make much of you, but to enable you, inspite of hell deserving sin, to enjoy making much of God for eternity,if you agree with that you will be so out of step with this culture that you will scaresly be able to watch tv without weeping. You will scaresly be able to sit in secular university classrooms without breaking inside, at the almost universal mindset that makes a mockery of the cross.
So test yourself here, because evengelical christianity is PROFOUNDLY contaminated with this mindset. Book after book, message out of message, making the cross an echo of OUR excellence ... and thus making it unintelligable for what it really is.
I believe that the love of God comes to its apex in the cross of Jesus for you and me, because I define the love of God for me as that act by which inspite of all my sin, he takes me and makes me able to enjoy infinately His making much of God! That IS what love IS, which is why many of you need to be drenched in the love of God drastically different from the way that you thought when you were singing those praise songs just a moment ago, because you've been taught all your life long that self-esteem is the bottom line of all virtue, and all health and all being loved, and It Is NOT!
Why do you go to the grand-cayon? Why do you go to the Alps? Do you really go to the glories of creation to see how great YOU are? Tell me about it as you stand on the edge of the Grand-Canyon. You go there because you were made to see, and to behold and to enjoy greatness! And the Grand-Canyon is nothing compared to God. You were made for God, and you will be loved. And when you understand this, you will be able to understand, to feel and to see the wonder, and the love in that God makes much of God.

sorry for all the english mistakes. I had to transcribe that on the fly.

Revolution Cry · Aug 8, 2003

Smilin said:
Why would a loving Creator desire to condemn the majority of his creation to eternal torment for:

A. Simply not 'hearing' of the Savior?

Actually, i believe there is a passage in the NT that says that those who do not hear of the law, and do not hear of christ are judged according to their own values or something to that effect. Course, there is the distinct possiblity that I'm full of **** on that one and completely misinterpreted the verse. In either case, I should still continue to spread the Word.

B. Not following 'The plan of Salvation'? (Whatever the current consensus on that is)

You mean having faith?

C. Seeking an alternate spiritual path?

I'm close to not touching this one with a 10-foot pole ... but whatever.

The point of Christianity is to live you life as worship to God. You cannot, therefore, seperate the 'lifestyle' of a Christian and God from one another. It just cannot be.
Living the christian 'lifestyle' without God is impossible, for you cannot live your life for something that you do not believe in.
And if you have faith in God and you have the spirit dwelling within you, you will not be able to help but live by faith, and as such, as living worship.
Therefore, seeking an alternate 'spiritual path' can only lead to a decent from Godly values, and from God himself. Now, I cannot say that if you've been saved, and accepted Christ, and then turn your back on him in favor of something else whether or not you are still saved, that isn't for me to decide, but Jesus made it plainly clear "The only way to the father is through me."

And what of Hell and the Christian conscious?
Shouldn't it bother those who preach of eternal punishment that a great man such as Ghandi is doomed, while a serial killer such as Dahmer is in Paradise for simply repenting?

Not one bit. While I can feel sorry for those that the word did not take root in, such as Ghandi, he did have his chance, and he didn't believe.
Ghandi, in his life, had sinned, and so did Dahmer. It doesn't matter what the sin was, as there is no variation in the levels of sin. Sin is sin. It is a dishonor to God no matter how big or small.
There is no condemnation in Christ. Dahmer figured that out.

AJ88 · Aug 8, 2003

Greetings you-all,

I had believed for over 50 years, in the teaching of hell and eternal torment for the lost.
I believed it - not because I had studied these teachings, but because I had merely accepted what my church leaders told me to believe.

But I honestly NOW, believe that this teaching of ETERNAL TORMENT FOR THE LOST is one of the biggest lies Satan has conjured and the Body of Christ has bought it hook, line and sinker.

YOU SEE:

My God use to be a 'A HORRIBLE MONSTER' of cruel and unusual punishment, when He supposedly planned from the foundation of the world to torture most of mankind.

My God use to be a 'MONSTROUS FAILURE' because He made a creation but then was unable to reconcile all that were lost, unto Himself.

My God use to be 'A FOOL' because if He planned to save all mankind - BUT He either could not or would not.
In otherwords, He could not provide an all inclusive salvation for some men who were stubborn.
He was a fool who planned and couldn't finish! Like the one Jesus talked about. (Lu 14:32)

My God use to be A SHAM when he would command his followers to love and forgive their enemies and to forgive 70 X 7 to forgive without limit, then He the Commander in Chief, does not do likewise.
Rather hed say, To Hell with lot of Them.
That would make *us* better than our God, wouldn't it?

In reality, Satan was more powerful then my 'god' because he was victorious through his deception in damning billions of souls to a supposed eternal hell.

My Gods will use to be BOTCHED because the will of a man that he created, BUT somehow now man's will has become stronger and more powerful than His will was to save them.

My Jesus use to be the biggest 'SINNER.' - because to sin is to - "miss the mark", and he would miss the mark, by not being able to save the whole world that he claimed he would.
"that the world through Him might be saved." (John 3:17)
"if I am lifted up, I will draw all men unto me." (John 12:32)

My Jesus use to be 'A TRAITOR' - because he would not fulfill his mission, instead, he switched to become the epitmony of a Weapon of Mass Destrution.
"The Son of Man did not come to destroy mens lives but to save them." (Luke 9:56)

My Jesus use to be 'A FAILURE' - he would fail to draw all peoples unto himself like he claimed he would.
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.' (John 12:32)

My Jesus use to be 'A LOSER' - when he would fail to reconcile all things back unto His Father.
"To reconcile all things back to His Father." (Col. 1:16-20)

My Jesus use to be 'A FIBBER'- because he said he was going to make everything new......but then leaves the masses mankind, withering forever in torment and torture in the lake of fire.
"Behold, I make all things new." (Rev 21:5)

My own words to the lost, use to be 'A TWISTED LIE' - because I would tell people, that God loved them with an everlasting love, yet I also was taught to believe, that His love would turn to wrath, if they died without become saved.

My life use to be full of 'FALSENESS' - because I believed that those who died as lost souls, would have no further hope beyond the grave, yet.... I rarely spoke of Jesus unto the lost. Instead, I would go fishing or something as I see all my other brother and sisters in the Lord doing.

My life use to be 'FULL OF FEAR' - because I would lie awake at night, wondering if I was going to make heaven my home. Afraid to go to sleep at night, being fearful from the images that was portraited to my little mind, from the HELLFIRE preachers that I would have to listen to.

-------------
I just ran across this article today, and thought it was quite appropriate.

===============================================================

The Ludicrous Threat of Eternal Torment - by Martin Zender.....

http://www.martinzender.com/zenderature.htm

.
LUDICROUS:

adj. provoking or deserving derision; amusingly absurd;
ridiculous; comical; laughable. Random House Collegiate Dictionary

Does the doctrine of eternal torment "keep people in line," as many orthodox preachers insist it does?
Does the threat of eternal torment "scare people into heaven?" as is commonly taught?

Not that I can tell. In fact, the effect is quite the opposite. Allow me to provide this illustration:

When a mother tells her child: "Spencer, if you disobey me, youre not leaving your room for the rest of your life!" Spencer laughs. He thinks to himself, "She cant
possibly do that, I dont care if she does wear tight curlers all day." And Spencer is correct. Because it is ludicrous, the mothers threat does not deter Spencers
disobedience.
Out goes Spencer to play.

But what if Spencers mother were to say: "Spencer, if you disobey me, you will not eat supper tonight." The boy turns sober.
He thinks: "I know that she can and will do this." It is this, not the exaggerated threats of a rabid mother, that will curtail Spencers behavior.

Thus also with the doctrine of eternal torment. Eternal torment has God saying: "Make one mistake (not believing in Me), and Ill torture you for eternity!"

The world knows how ridiculous that is. Witness: Have Christians, for all their trouble and preaching, reformed the world? Okey-dokey, then.

.
LET'S GET REAL, LET'S GET SCRIPTURAL:

Consider poor man, born unconsulted into a world of mortality and sin, thrust as a weak and trembling baby for a few short years into a cauldron of evil that
conspires, from the start, to make a criminal of him.
And so a criminal he becomes. Because of this, we are told, he is doomed to fiery agony for eternity becausecan we utter it?

God Himself has locked him up in stubbornness (Rom. 11:32)
and has purposely, for now anyway, withheld the faith necessary to believe in Him (see John 6:44, Phil. 1:29, and Rom. 12:3).

The world mocks at such an insane concept of 'Eternal Torment', and I congratulate the world for it.
No Scripture, correctly translated, supports such a concept.
Many Scriptures flatly deny it. It would be a joke, were it not preached in all earnestness from pulpits around the world.

No, threats of "eternal punishment" do not deter evil. In fact, they increase it. Many turn from Christianity (or dont even consider it), not because they hate God, but
because they hear from religious zealots (read: "Christians") that the Bible is supposed to teach such a horrible end to "Gods great plan of salvation."

Like Spencer and his appraisal of his mothers irrational threats, the world knows that no God worthy of the name would torture any of Hiscreation eternally,
especially not after a perfect sacrifice has been made for sin.

In this, the children of darkness are wiser than the children of light. And so the world continues in its sin, more earnestly than ever.

.
LET'S TRY THE TRUTH:

But what if, instead of telling unscriptural lies about God, preachers and teachers of the Word were tocan we utter it?
What if we study that Word, and tell the world the truth?

What if they were to tell unbelievers that their behavior is robbing them, not of eternal life (God sent His own Son to secure that for them), but of eonian life?
(It is this word, not "eternal," that is the correct translation of the Greek adjective aionion).

What if they tell unbelievers that they will not live during the future, glorious eon of the kingdom reign of Christ on earth?
That they will be dead during the last great eon, when God creates a new heavens and a new earth and tabernacles with mankind?

What if they tell them that they will rise to be judged at the great white throne, suffering affliction and distress there because of their wicked acts (Rom. 2:5-10), to be
returned to death (Rev. 20:14-15) until the consummation (1 Cor.15:26)?

My God, are not these threats enough to satisfy those in Christianity who live to threaten people?

But at least these threats, being reasonable and rational (not to mention a witness to the truth), would have a sobering effect on the sinner. The intelligent sinner is
likely to say, "Now, this is reasonable, not ludicrous.

How singular and unaccustomed I am to such things from the Christian camp. God probably will do this. He loves me enough to save me, but I shall first be
separated from Him for the eons because of my acts.

Even though I will enjoy eternal life with Him at the consummation, as will all (1 Cor. 15:28), I do not want to miss out on these glorious eons ("eonian life") these
people are telling me about. I want to live with Christ during the thousand years. I want to taste of the pleasures of the new heavens and the new earth. Oh, God!

"Give me this life!"

.

Crusadar · Aug 8, 2003

Hell is necessary, so we won't have Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, or Dahmer as neighbors in heaven.

God_follower · Aug 9, 2003

Hell is necessary, sorry to say but it is. God is love, but love isnt just that emotional feeling that us teenagers feel but also as a father punishes his child because he wants the best for the child. We have free will to accept it or not.

Revolution Cry · Aug 9, 2003

AJ88 said:
YOU SEE:

My God use to be a 'A HORRIBLE MONSTER' ... 'MONSTROUS FAILURE' ...'A FOOL' ...A SHAM ...BOTCHED ...'SINNER.' ...'A TRAITOR' ...'A FAILURE' ... 'A LOSER' ...'A FIBBER'.
My own words to the lost, use to be 'A TWISTED LIE'.
My life use to be full of 'FALSENESS'.
My life use to be 'FULL OF FEAR'.

Funny. You see, my God is Glorious. My God is Holy. My God is Righteous. My God is Gracious. My God is Merciful. My God is all knowing. My God is all powerful. My God is fully competent. My God is complete. My God is is the Victory. My God is honost.

And My Jesus ... MY JESUS ... is the reconciler.

My words to the lost are merciful. My life is lived following my savior. My life is without fear.

And if I'm not mistaken, you just called my God a monster, said he was inept and a liar, and then you called me ... and many others here ... liars.

Perhaps if you're going to talk trash about my God, you should go check out Revelations, and figure out why men would need reconciliation with a God who could just toss his righteousness out the window.

sbbqb7n16 · Aug 9, 2003

Because you make the mistake of assuming that God prepared Hell for men. Men weren't supposed to be in hell in the first place. Only the angels who fell with Lucifer in direct rebellion against God. That's what Hell is for....

Now if you choose to sin... which you weren't created to do... then you also fall into direct rebellion against God, and so because God cannot allow any sin to be in His Presence... He must remove it somewhere else... and anywhere without God can't be good.

Then comes in the love of God to buy you back and save you from Hell so that you could go to be with Him which was the way He intended it. You and I... we were the ones who screwed up... not God. And God has gone to great lengths to get things restored.

Ever since Jesus Christ died on that cross... Hell hasn't been a problem any more. Only that "the people perish for lack of knowledge." (Hos 4:6)

I've always found it odd that people turn away the love of God found in Jesus Christ because they don't see God to be a loving God. They refuse the very thing that they wish God would be... Isn't that kind of odd to anyone else?

AJ88 · Aug 9, 2003

Greetings Revolution Cry,

You said that I called you and others here a liarI can NOT find that in my postwould you be so kind, and please cite exactly where I called you a liar ..or.. be a man and recant your accusation.

I am speaking about the God, that I was taught to serve, while listening to teaching from Pentecostals, Baptists, Assembly of God, and other non-denomination churches for over 50 years of my life.

If a person believes in a God who created all things, but then loses billions and billions of souls to a place of endless torment and torture, - that persons God is NOT GLORIOUS.

If a person believes in a God who is all-merciful, but then he DOESNT or he WONT forgive the sinner who dies, because he has never had an opportunity to hear and understand the Gospel, - that persons God is NOT MERCIFUL.

If a person believes in a God who has created mankind, but he is so weak that he fails on his first test, and then punishes frail mankind to an endless torture and torment, - that persons God is NOT COMPETENT.

If a person believes in a God who then provides a remedy for the malady that mankind have found themselves in, but severely limits it to frail, mixed up humanity as the ONLY means - for someone finding this remedy, and it must be found and used in this life time before one dies, - then that persons God is VERY INEPT and INCOMPETENT.

If a person believes in a God who provides a saviour for mankind, but yet both He and the Savior both vanish, remain hidden, are invisible from man, but yet expect man to somehow figure out his master plan that only a unique and limited percentage of the earth really understands, and even those with that knowledge dont really do a very good job sharing it that much, - with eternal verities at stake, - then that persons God is NOT VICTORIOUS, or HONEST, or RELIABLE at all.

I could go on here by the yardful.

But I want to leave you with ( 8 ) reasons why I now
believe in the REAL GOOD NEWS, - THE GLORIOUS GOSPEL of Christ. II Cor. 4:4.

(1.) I now understand and serve a God who is all powerful, well able to perform that which is necessary, to fulfill His will for the saving of all mankind.

(2.) A God who is all wise, foreseeing every problem with men and then creating a solution, thereby redeeming all mankind.

(3.) That the blood of Christ Jesus, that was spilled at Calvary, not only provided salvation for all men, but is great enough to liberate and eventually redeem all mankind that are lost.

(4.) That Satan was unable to forever **** even one soul.

(5.) That none of God's plans will ever be thwarted.

(6.) That God is not holding the trespasses of the world against us. The one who is reconciling the world to himself. The one who bore all our sins, and not just ours but the whole world. The one who is the Savior of all mankind.

(7.) That God's mercy truly does endure forever, for every single person.

(8.) That there is wonderful hope for all mankind, and always has been.

TO GOD BE THE GLORY, AMEN (so let it be)

Drotar · Aug 9, 2003

If you believe in the God of Christianity, then you will listen to what He Himself says.

He told you hell exists. What, do you think someone made it up cause they were bored?

You must not read the words of Christ. He talks about hell more than He does heaven. I believe in a God of grace, but I also believe in a God justice.

HEAVEN IS NOT EVERY PERSON'S NATURAL BIRTHRIGHT. NO ONE DESERVES to go there. EVERYONE deserves to go to hell.

So if three criminals are sentenced to justice for their crimes, and some kind-hearted person pays the price for only two of them to go free, does that render the execution of the third unjust? How great a God is He if He personally suffered so that JUST ONE person could have a gift they don't deserve. But He has chosen to save a multitude; we call Him heartless, for not saving all.

This shouldn't even be debatable. The issue is not whether or not you like it, it's whether you believe the Bible is the Word of God. TTYL Jesus loves you!

kimber1 · Aug 9, 2003

AMEN drotar! just b/c hell makes people uncomfortable doesn't mean it doesn't exsist. and if people only believe what they want and take out the bad stuff that bothers them, they're not truly listening to God. IMO

drmmjr · Aug 9, 2003

Scripturally speaking, hell is the grave. Hell is an English word derived from the Anglo-Saxon word helan, which means to cover or to hide out of sight.

The Old Testament was originally written in the Hebrew language; the New Testament was originally written in the Greek language. In order for the Bible to be read in English, therefore, it was necessary for Bible scholars to translate the Bible from the Hebrew and Greek languages into English.

The English word hell was used by these translators to translate Hebrew and Greek words that were originally used by Bible writers to refer to the grave.

The Hebrew word for grave is sheol. The Greek word for grave is hades. Old Testament writers, like Moses, Job, David, Solomon, and Isaiah, recorded the fact that dead men are buried in sheol. New Testament writers, like Matthew, Luke, Paul, and John, taught that the dead are buried in hades.

Looking at Acts2:27-31 and Psalm 16:10, you can see that sheol and hades have the same meaning the grave. Acts 2:27 is a direct quote of Psalm 16:10. In Psalms the word hell is translated from the Hebrew word sheol, and in Acts the word hell is translated from the Greek wore hades. This helps to prove that the two words mean the same thing.

Those who choose Jesus will get a reward, eternal life. That's a positive reward. But the reward of the wicked is a negative reward. As sin is the perfect antithesis of righteousness, so is the wages of sin the perfect and abiding antithesis of life (Romans 6:23). For it is the perfect punishment; it is the deprivation of all reward.

Bible statements declaring the doom of the wicked are probably as innumerable as those stating the reward of the righteous, yet in none of them are the wicked promised life in any way, shape or form. Many synonyms of death are employed to emphasize this fact. Sinners are to be cut down, cut off, rooted out of the earth, destroyed, consumed, burned up as chaff, burned up root and branch. Psalms 37:1, 2, 10, 20; 104:20; Proverbs 2:22; Malachi 4:1, 3; Matthew 3:12; Luke 3:17.
They are to not see life (John 3:36) but shall utterly perish. Deuteronomy 4:24-26; Psalms 49:12; Obadiah 16; Luke 13:3; John 3:16; Romans 2:12; 2 Corinthians 2:15; 2 Peter 2:12.
Their end is destruction. Matthew 7:14; Philippians 3:18,19; 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9.

The wicked are always likened to perishable things, as the stubble in Malachi 4:1, chaff in Matthew 3:12 and tares in Matthew 13:38-40. Observe the cumulative emphasis of the words perdition, consume, destroy, perish and d*a*m*n*e*d (had to write it this way in order for it to take) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12. Can anyone say these plain terms do not mean what they say, or explain why they are used, if they do not?

God could not permit evil to be eternal. In His beautiful world of the future, there is to be no sin or sorrow, no pain or tears, nothing but perfection (Revelation 21:4). Therefore nothing but extinction can be the future lot of the sinner.

Revolution Cry · Aug 9, 2003

AJ88 said:
Greetings Revolution Cry,

You said that I called you and others here a liarI can NOT find that in my postwould you be so kind, and please cite exactly where I called you a liar ..or.. be a man and recant your accusation.

when you say that we're presenting a 'twisted lie' you're infering that we are twisted liars, no matter how you might want to try and sugar-coat it after the fact.

I am speaking about the God, that I was taught to serve, while listening to teaching from Pentecostals, Baptists, Assembly of God, and other non-denomination churches for over 50 years of my life.

So, basically, the God that all the rest of us around here serve.

If a person believes in a God who created all things, but then loses billions and billions of souls to a place of endless torment and torture, - that persons God is NOT GLORIOUS.

Really? Or perhaps you do not understand that God is at the center of God's Glory. God's adoration of himself and his understanding that he is of the utmost value and therefore, His Glory and His reknown, and His righteousness, and his Holiness, would not be if he just let the sins of the world go without the acknowledgement of them. If he did that, THEN he would not be Glorious, and he would not be Holy, and he would not be Righteous.
Then, he would be a liar, because just as John Piper said in the sermon I quoted above, you do not call yourself a 'righteous judge' and then sweep the sins of the world under the table.

If a person believes in a God who is all-merciful, but then he DOESNT or he WONT forgive the sinner who dies, because he has never had an opportunity to hear and understand the Gospel, - that persons God is NOT MERCIFUL.

He did forgive the sins of all, but we must be justified through faith! Just as Abraham was. Check Romans 4.
An unmerciful God would not have said to David "I have put away your sins." An unmerciful God would not have taken the Israelites back time and time again. An unmericiful God would not give you the opportunity to make amends, or to even chose against his will in the first place.

If a person believes in a God who has created mankind, but he is so weak that he fails on his first test, and then punishes frail mankind to an endless torture and torment, - that persons God is NOT COMPETENT.

so, basically, if God doesn't allow us the free will to make our own choices, and our own decisions on whether or not we will follow him ... that makes Him incompentent? Because He gives us the free will to choose?
I would easily say that it would be the opposit. An incompentent God would be the one who doesn't allow us the choice to love him, or to dishonor him. An incompetent God would not have the trust in his own worth to allow that.
Does your God make that allowance? Because from what you're saying, it doesn't sound like it.

If a person believes in a God who then provides a remedy for the malady that mankind have found themselves in, but severely limits it to frail, mixed up humanity as the ONLY means - for someone finding this remedy, and it must be found and used in this life time before one dies, - then that persons God is VERY INEPT and INCOMPETENT.

Would you care to expound on this? Or should I just take this as a rehash of the last thing you said which I already addressed?
Check out Romans 6 and 7.

If a person believes in a God who provides a saviour for mankind, but yet both He and the Savior both vanish, remain hidden, are invisible from man, but yet expect man to somehow figure out his master plan that only a unique and limited percentage of the earth really understands, and even those with that knowledge dont really do a very good job sharing it that much, - with eternal verities at stake, - then that persons God is NOT VICTORIOUS, or HONEST, or RELIABLE at all.

Vanished? Remains hidded? Invisible from man? ... lets see ... Father, Son ... and the last one would be ...
That's right. The Holy Spirit. The One who lives in each of us and provides us a guide, and a teacher. The one that encourages our faith, and leads us to follow in that faith.
Master plan that only a unique and limited percentage of the earth really understands? ... you mean ... faith? Believing in, and taking action upon that belief? Surely you jest. You make it sound like some kind of impossible gauntlet of sorrow.
And I must say, I hear the voice of God and His workings all around me. I would most definitely NOT call that vanished or hidden.
Are you telling me that you see a physical manafestation of your God in a caporeal being on a regular basis?

[quoteI could go on here by the yardful.[/quote]
Please do. Because so far the only thing you've done is seemingly to completely disavow Romans and most of Revalations and set God up as what you want him to be, and something completely seperate from what he describes himself as in the Bible.

But I want to leave you with ( 8 ) reasons why I now
believe in the REAL GOOD NEWS, - THE GLORIOUS GOSPEL of Christ. II Cor. 4:4.

(1.) I now understand and serve a God who is all powerful, well able to perform that which is necessary, to fulfill His will for the saving of all mankind.

The justification of man is there for those who believe, and have Faith in Christ Jesus.

(2.) A God who is all wise, foreseeing every problem with men and then creating a solution, thereby redeeming all mankind.

Click to expand...

yeah. my God did that on the Cross. The thing is, the act still requires faith in the act ... which you appear to be denying.

(3.) That the blood of Christ Jesus, that was spilled at Calvary, not only provided salvation for all men, but is great enough to liberate and eventually redeem all mankind that are lost.

Click to expand...

see above.

(4.) That Satan was unable to forever **** even one soul.

Click to expand...

Satan doesn't doesn't d*mn anyone. Does he tempt us? Sure. But we d*mn ourselves by giving into that temtation and chosing to follow him, rather than God.

(5.) That none of God's plans will ever be thwarted.

Click to expand...

eh ... sorry. i must have missed the part where the God that I believe in ... the one from the Bible ... has had his plans jacked.

(6.) That God is not holding the trespasses of the world against us. The one who is reconciling the world to himself. The one who bore all our sins, and not just ours but the whole world. The one who is the Savior of all mankind.

Click to expand...

... gotta go back to that whole faith thing ... Saved by Grace, THROUGH FAITH. Gal 2:14.

(7.) That God's mercy truly does endure forever, for every single person.

Click to expand...

"it's a terrifying thing to treat the Glory of God's grace as a small thing, only to find yourself at the occasion whereby you become the means through which the Glory of God's wrath is made a big thing."

(8.) That there is wonderful hope for all mankind, and always has been.

Click to expand...

yep. through faith.

Revolution Cry · Aug 9, 2003

Acts 13:39
Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[ 5:1 Or let us] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

I threw this up in response to AJ88. Most of this is while contrasting law vs. faith, however, each of these say that you are justified by faith, in otherwords, you must have faith to be justified.

just figured i would throw in a few verses from the 1 Tim thread

AJ88 · Aug 10, 2003

.

Greetings Revolution Cry,

Some of the following I had posted previously on another thread.
I am not sure if you've read it.

I do understand your concern, because for over 50 years of my life, I too was as hardnose, about my pet teaching of "Eternal torment and torture for the lost" as anybody was.

L. Ray Smith explains it this way:
There are three great evils of men on earth today:
(1.) corrupt government, (2.) false science, and (3.)deceitful religion.

Of these, the traditional Christian teaching of "Eternal Torment" for the majority of God's children, is by far the single greatest evil and contemptible teaching ever foisted on the human race anywhere on the face of the earth, in the entire history of the world!

Many established churches tell me, that the 'lost' must have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ during this lifetime, or else theyll be ****** for eternity.

But I am left with a question that none of them can satisfactory answer.........and that is how can the masses (billions) of humanity have that relationship with the Savior - if they've never in their lifetime, heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

These folks have never had their 'CHANCE' - as if salvation is a chance thing.

It's been estimated that between 90 and 120 billion people have lived or are living on this earth.......so then,
just how many of them, have actually heard the Gospel message?

How many have had a good,
full and complete,
clear gospel message presented unto them,
about the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Remember now, to be honest, we must include those who have lived from Adam until today.
Because if salvation isn't through Jesus Christ, then there's more than one way to be saved.

And yet so many of our wonderful brother and sister in the Lord, want to eternally **** all these billions of people?.Oh My!

I wonder how they would feel if they had been born in Iran?........and actually be one of these people that they so easily discards as rubbish.

O.K. dear brother REVOLUTION CRY, may I make this very personal?

- Lets say, you had the unfortunate circumstances of being born in the country of Iran.
-Lets say, you....like millions of your fellowmen, were constantly being told........ that the Christian God is utterly false.
-Lets say, that all you heard...... all your life, from your mom and dad, plus from the leaders of Iran, that the religion of Christianity is the Great Satan.
-Lets say, that you and millions,......probably billions of your fellow countrymen, never one time, hear of the true gospel of Jesus Christ........not even once in your entire lifetime.

Now you are born in a lost condition, RIGHT?
You live your entire life as a lost person,. RIGHT?
Then die as lost,. RIGHT?

So at some point in the future, you'll be resurrected to stand before the great judge of all the earth.
Well now,......... according to the Christian religion of many folks here in the west,......God will look in the book of life,..........and horror of horrors........your name is NOT there.

And now according to the teaching of many Christians...........God has no choice but to D*A*m*n* you REVOLUTION CRY,...... to SEND you off to a boiling hot lake of fire, to be tormented and tortured, FOREVER and EVER and EVER.

So now, dear brother REVOLUTION CRY........just how would you feel about that.......if that really did happen to you?

.
After all, you were never ASKED or given a CHOICE:

- to be conceived or created in the first place......
- if you would want to be born at all......
- as to whom your parents might be....
- as to where to might live..
- to have a body of flesh and blood.......
- about your physical characteristics and even what sex to be.....
- about ones genetic composition..
- about eye color, hair color, skin color, body type, level of intelligence..
- about birth defects, mental illness, or retardation....
- to have "inherited" a weak and fallen nature of sin.......
- to be condemned by sin, from birth......
- to be bound onto disobedience......
- to be made sinners, ---- because, the angels were not......
- to be under the penalty of death, from the very beginning of their life.......
- to be made, - liken unto sheep, constantly going astray.......
- to be made an enemy of God, from your birth......
- to be bound in stubbornness.......
- to be tested by evil spirits.......
- to be enticed with numerous temptations.......
- for the many trials to tests you
- to live under a curse of sickness and sin.......
- for a life of pain, sorrows, troubles and tears.......
- for life on this earth at all.......
- No one was ever asked ahead of time to be born, brought up and live in the kingdom of darkness.......

Therefore, again I ask you REVOLUTION CRY....... just how would you feel about that.......if you really were ****** for all eternity, through virtually no fault of your own?

On top of that :
Why is it that God be invisible to man, under a veil?

And furthermore:
Every unregenerate person is a sinner (Rom. 3:23),
dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
possessing a deceitful heart (Jer. 17:9),
is full of evi (Mark 7:21-23),
unable to understand spiritual truth (1 Cor. 2:14),
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11),
is a slave to his own sin nature (Rom. 6:14-20),
is hostile in mind and deed to God (Col. 1:21),
and naturally and rightfully are objects of God's wrath (Eph. 2:3).

And Finally:
Because of their sinful condition (Rom. 6:14-20),
The unregenerate do not and cannot freely choose to believe the gospel (Rom.3:10-12; Rom. 6:14-20)
And that they cannot come to God unless it has been granted to them from the Father (John 6:65)
It is God alone who appoints them to eternal life (Acts 13:48 )
A God alone grants that they believe (Phil.1:29).

----------

Peace my friend, R.C.....Someday we'll all be friends, at the end of time when God is All in Everybody. (1 Cor. 15:22-28)

.

TrinityHerself · Aug 12, 2003

Interesting perspectives. I don't think anybody is poking fun at anyone else's God here. Some of us are just trying to point out that it is cognitive dissonance to believe in an all-loving God and the concept of Hell.

Many are using the example of a parent with a child. If I wreck my father's car, he'll probably punish me somehow, even though he loves me. If I say I'm sorry, he'll probably punish me less. But is my father going to condemn me to never seeing him the rest of eternity just for doing something like wrecking the car or forgetting to say I'm sorry?

If God's ways don't make sense to human reason (which God inspired), then why use God's ways? If God didn't intend for us to use reason to figure things out, God wouldn't have inspired us to have it.

Back on topic.

I understand that many of you believe hell needs to exist, but I'd like you to prove it to me. I'm not going to be convinced or content with the answer, "Because the Bible/God says so."

pax · Aug 12, 2003

Jesus did say the, "road was narrrow," and Revelations speaks of eternal torment. God does not force people to go to Heaven. He love us enough to respect our decision. He is eternally merciful to the repentant sinner, but He is also eternally just for the unrepentant. Whether or not we want Hell to exist is irrelevant. We live in a culture that denies absolute morality and right and wrong. We like to "feel good," and not have to worry about eternity. Hell does exist, but luckily, Heaven does too.

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