Hell Isn't Necessary

[FreeinChrist]

Have faith so strong that when the Lord comes, with all fire and damnation, it washes over you in review and redemption; for you have gone before the Lord and opened the Book of Your Life and Jesus has covered your sins with His blood and you go out and sin no more by the grace of God.

After reading your post, I believe that you are mixing up references to fire and not taking them into context.

 

[Debi1967]

[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][/font] 11

[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][/font]

[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]And I saw a great white throne and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away: and there was no place found for them[/font]12

[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne. And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.[/font]13

[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]And the sea gave up the dead that were in it: and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them. And they were judged, every one according to their works.[/font]14

[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death.[/font]15
[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the pool of fire.[/font]

you know what I really hate is when scriptue is taken out of context to prove a point. Funny but even here it says that death and Hell gave up their dead which means that it exists and that people go there.......
this is scripture folks or are we going to say that scripture now is inaccurate....
Then you would be saying that the Word of God which is infallible is wrong and so therefore God is.
Oh and for those that would like to know this is the DRV if you would like the KJV I can get that too but it is not going to differ much.
The point is you must take all scripture and then put it together to get the accurate meaning not takie it out of context....

 

[visionary]

"Death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev 20:14,15

Notice that both death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Debi1967]

"Death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev 20:14,15

Notice that both death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.

Notice that both are distinguished when it says that death and hell gave the dead that were in them giving the dinstinction that there are are two not one. otherwise it would have said it. That is why taking scripture out of context is bad..... this is found in the scriptures leading up to the scriptures you quoted in fact it is in the two you omitted in your OP. You skipped right over it. I wonder why because maybe even in your Bible it says the same thing? That they will judged which means that we all will be judged and then if we are not found in the book of life we will be cast in the lake of fire. This meaning the dead and those in Hell. Then we go to our Final Death. Taht being the Second Death. You seem to believe that we as Catholics firstly like to send people there which we do not. The reason because it is said Judge not lest you be judged in the same manner. Secondly just because we acknowledge that it exists we do not believe that we are going to burn forever like others seem to believe we do. Is soddom and Gommorrah still burning? No but instead it means they are totally cut off no means of redemption from the Lord they will be wiped out as if they never existed....So yes we will sent to lake of fire to burn till we no longer exist which will be instantaneous. Forever being separated from the Lord and that is a fate I do not wish to have and that anyone who is righteous would ever want.
In Christ
Debi

 

[webboffin]

note it is called the second death i.e. no longer existing, dead, destroyed. Not the traditional teaching of eternal torment that would not befit a loving God.

 

[Debi1967]

note it is called the second death i.e. no longer existing, dead, destroyed. Not the traditional teaching of eternal torment that would not befit a loving God.

reread my post please this is not what we teach either this is a fallacy.

 

[visionary]

"Seeing then that all these things shall be disolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy converstaion and godliness? 2 Peter 3:11 "heavens ...pass away with a great noise, elements... melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works... are burned up....all these things desolved." 2 Peter 3:10-11 "wherby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: but the heavens and the earth which are not, BY THE SAME WORD kept in store, RESERVED UNTO FIRE against the day of judgement and perdition (destruction) of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:6-7

When you look at fire, you see several elements to make up the fire, you see the heat waves, the red, yellow, blue and white flames and then you see the clear portion. In chemistry class you are taught which flames burns, which part of the flame is the coolest and you would not burn.

 

[visionary]

Notice that both are distinguished when it says that death and hell gave the dead that were in them giving the dinstinction that there are are two not one. otherwise it would have said it. That is why taking scripture out of context is bad..... this is found in the scriptures leading up to the scriptures you quoted in fact it is in the two you omitted in your OP. You skipped right over it. I wonder why because maybe even in your Bible it says the same thing? That they will judged which means that we all will be judged and then if we are not found in the book of life we will be cast in the lake of fire. This meaning the dead and those in Hell. Then we go to our Final Death. Taht being the Second Death. You seem to believe that we as Catholics firstly like to send people there which we do not. The reason because it is said Judge not lest you be judged in the same manner. Secondly just because we acknowledge that it exists we do not believe that we are going to burn forever like others seem to believe we do. Is soddom and Gommorrah still burning? No but instead it means they are totally cut off no means of redemption from the Lord they will be wiped out as if they never existed....So yes we will sent to lake of fire to burn till we no longer exist which will be instantaneous. Forever being separated from the Lord and that is a fate I do not wish to have and that anyone who is righteous would ever want.
In Christ
Debi

Secondly just because we acknowledge that it exists we do not believe that we are going to burn forever like others seem to believe we do. Is soddom and Gommorrah still burning? No but instead it means they are totally cut off no means of redemption from the Lord they will be wiped out as if they never existed....So yes we will sent to lake of fire to burn till we no longer exist which will be instantaneous. Forever being separated from the Lord and that is a fate I do not wish to have and that anyone who is righteous would ever want.
In Christ
Debi[/QUOTE]

 

[webboffin]

Secondly just because we acknowledge that it exists we do not believe that we are going to burn forever like others seem to believe we do. Is soddom and Gommorrah still burning? No but instead it means they are totally cut off no means of redemption from the Lord they will be wiped out as if they never existed....So yes we will sent to lake of fire to burn till we no longer exist which will be instantaneous. Forever being separated from the Lord and that is a fate I do not wish to have and that anyone who is righteous would ever want.
In Christ
Debi

Agreed

 

[visionary]

Funny but even here it says that death and Hell gave up their dead which means that it exists and that people go there.......[/FONT]

Amen...it is true that death and hell gave up their dead....I believe it.

 

[Disciple 3]

"Death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev 20:14,15

Notice that both death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.

End times. Not now.

 

[Andre]

Secondly just because we acknowledge that it exists we do not believe that we are going to burn forever like others seem to believe we do. Is soddom and Gommorrah still burning? No but instead it means they are totally cut off no means of redemption from the Lord they will be wiped out as if they never existed....So yes we will sent to lake of fire to burn till we no longer exist which will be instantaneous. Forever being separated from the Lord and that is a fate I do not wish to have and that anyone who is righteous would ever want.
In Christ
Debi

Sorry, but that's not what the Word of God says.

Revelation 14

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."


"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night", it doesn't sound like instant destruction to me.

 

[Curt]

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Pet 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Sam 14:14
14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.
Job 37:24
24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

Quote:
Many are using the example of a parent with a child. If I wreck my father's car, he'll probably punish me somehow, even though he loves me. If I say I'm sorry, he'll probably punish me less. But is my father going to condemn me to never seeing him the rest of eternity just for doing something like wrecking the car or forgetting to say I'm sorry?

Hell is necessary because God created if for those who He in His foreknowledge of every choice we would ever make whether to serve Him or satan created it for satan and all those who choose to serve Him. As for your example, if the choices you made caused that wreck to kill some one else your dad would still love you but he would have to turn you over to the judge who is commanded by God to take your life for taking another. God is pure justice, and He makes it well known in The Bible that those who after knowing the consequences of their freewill choices to serve satan will suffer in hell with satan, and the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever. Regardless of mans motives for wanting this not to be so, their will not one jot nor title of God's word that will not be fulfilled. Your compassion is loved by God but don't let it take you into believing one of satans favorite deceptions is.

 

[webboffin]

death is a condition not a place

 

[Faithful83]

Okay, I haven't read this whole thread but I have something that needs to be said:

I've been noticing that some people on this thread who find hell to be an uncomfortable concept (as do I) are doing anything they can to explain that concept away. We judge the Word of God not on His standards but on our own. One poster even said to prove that hell is real/necessary without saying that the Bible or God says so. This already requires that the people who say that it is real say it based on human standards.

Now that we have established that some of us are guilty of judging God on human standards, are we not creating a God that we deem to be more desirable? Are we not therefore violating the 2nd Commandment (I believe it was the 2nd) to not make idols? If some of us are violating that commandment, do we not deserve what the Bible tells us will happen if unrepentant?

AJ, as for people who have never heard of the Gospel. How would I feel if I had never heard of the Gospel and so was condemned? On human standards, I probably wouldn't be too impressed. However God does not operate on human standards. God operates on God's standards.

The Bible tells us certain things. We can try to explain it away, but it doesn't change what the Bible, the Word of God, written on Gods standards, tells us.

I am not here to offend anyone, however I felt that that needed to be said.

 

[Magisterium]

Well, if there's no hell, there is a big problem. From what are we "saved"? For what reason did our Lord suffer, die, and rise? Just a big show? just a big "drama" to make us behave?

This talk reminds me of an anecdote my first physics professor told in class on day:

There was in the dark ages a learned logician who also performed as a court jester before the king. At one time, he performed and the king was greatly offended. The king sent him away with this promise. "You will be jailed for one week until such time as I command that you are to be executed" (yeah, the king was ticked off). "But I promise you this" the king said, "you will be surprised...."

So the jester was thrown into prison and he immediately began to surmise when he would be killed. It was Saturday and he knew that executions generally happen on Sundays. He was aware that the King was a man of his word so he immediately eliminated Sunday in that he would not be surprised if he would be executed on that day. Next, he moves to Monday. Well, if it did not happen on Sunday, he would surely be expecting it the next day and thereofre not be surprised. The King is aware of this and would certainly not choose Monday for that reason. So he eliminated Monday. Tuesday likewise would not be a surprise either... by this line of logical sequential reasoning, he is clear until next Saturday when his week would be up. So he sits back in his cell and relaxes in wait of his Saturday release.

On Wednesday, the executioner comes in and beheads him.
And you know what?
He was surprised!

The moral of this anecdote is to illustrate that often, reasoning is not always really reasonable. (Important in physics, and infinitely more important in spiritual matters)

What's more, if hell does not exist, Jesus' suffering and death for our salvation are reduced to a gory lie. From what are we to be saved? What's more, scripture is no longer reliable because it "lies" about God and Jesus warning us of hell some 93 times (DRV) throughout the old and new testaments. The church is not reliable because it affirms this "myth" and Christianity and Judiasm, which both are build partially upon avoidance of Hell, crumble into so many ashes of untruth.

 

[webboffin]

Being saved is that you are with God and his begotten Son Jesus. Not being saved means you are not with them. Hell doesn't neccessary mean it is a place it can mean the condition of death. You no longer exist. If you are saved you are saved from death and instead given eternal life.

 

[Magisterium]

Being saved is that you are with God and his begotten Son Jesus. Not being saved means you are not with them. Hell doesn't neccessary mean it is a place it can mean the condition of death. You no longer exist. If you are saved you are saved from death and instead given eternal life.

I"m sorry, where does it explicitly say that in your bible? Are you speaking authoritatively or presumptuously?

The fact is, the bible is subject to interpretation. What you've just asserted as plain fact, simply is not. In order to come to this conclusion, one must do quite a bit of interpretation. Note that in this context, I'm referring to the extraction of information which is not explicitly stated.

 

[Debi1967]

Matt. 3:12; Luke 3:17 - John the Baptist said the Lord will burn the chaff with unquenchable fire. This unquenchable fire is the state of eternal separation from God, which the Church has called "hell" for 2,000 years. Some Protestant communities no longer acknowledge the reality of hell.

Matt. 25:41 - Jesus says, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Matt. 25:46 - Jesus says, "they will go away into eternal punishment" which is in reference to this eternal fire.

Mark 9:47-48 - Jesus refers to hell as where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. It lasts forever.

2 Thess. 1:6-9 - the angels will come with flaming fire and the disobedient will suffer punishment of eternal destruction. It is important to note that "destruction" does not mean "annihilation," as some Protestant denominations teach. It means eternal exclusion from the presence of God.

Jude 6-7 - the rebelling angels, and Sodom and Gomorrah, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Rev. 14:11 - the worshipers of the beast suffer and the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Rev. 20:10 - they're tormented in the lake of fire and brimstone day and night forever and ever.

Isaiah 33:14 - "Who of us can dwell in the everlasting fire?" This is a reference to hell which is forever.

Isaiah 66:24 - their worm shall not die and their fire shall not be quenched. We cannot fathom the pain of this eternal separation from God.

Jer. 15:14 - in my anger a fire is kindled which shall burn forever. Hell is the proper compliment to the eternal bliss of heaven.

Judith 16:17 - in the day of judgment the Lord will take vengeance on the wicked and they shall weep in pain forever. Hell is a place that sinners have prepared for themselves by rejecting God, who desires all people to be saved in His Son Jesus Christ. God sends no one to hell.

 

[Melbelle]

Why is Hell necessary?

I believe in a loving God, who inspired a man, Jesus of Nazareth, to promote peace and love to the regions of the world.

Why do we need to believe in a fiery pit of doom where those who oppose our message (or what we think is God's message) must live for eternity? Where does the Gracious God fit in the Mercy, Forgiveness, and Divine love package? The answer, "In this life," doesn't work for many people. Many people are turned off of Christianity because they were molested by priests, etc., or other things out of their control. When is their chance?

The Christian God is a God of second chances, a God who I believe cares that we grow into loving people. How are we do to so when we recruit our faith by threatening people with eternal death?



My point is, a belief in Hell is unnecessary. We can still make decisions that people would be more happier with Jesus without threatening eternal death, and we can admit that even those who enter the vineyard last of all will still have a chance.

It doesn't mean you can't believe in God anymore. Hell and God are unrelated. The Hell talked about in the Bible (with the exception of Revelation) is not the hell that Christians promote today. It was merely the place of death.

Give it up. For the future of your ministries, your mental well-beings, and your friend's salvation, give Hell up. Reclaim belief in a loving God who doesn't want people to burn for eternity, but wants them to be better people. Get out of this black/white mentality and start letting go and letting God impact people, without the threat of death. Let God be God and stop trying to decide who's at the head of the class and who gets detention.

"And these three remain: Faith, Hope, and Love. But the greatest of these is love."

God is a loveing God but that is why he sent Jesus to die for us so that we don't have to go there but that is mans choice if they belive and accept that he died for them then you are saved from hell but hell is for a reason why would God want someone in heaven if they don't belive on his word and belive in him...Thank about it..it makes since...