Is baptism necessary to be saved?

Quheleth,

Thank you for posting! I will definitely send a response in the next few days Lord willing.

WK

western kentucky said:

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From my understanding of the word of God, the thief on the cross died under the old law (Heb. 7:12). We are now under the new law of Christ (Heb. 9:16). Therefore, the thief on the cross is not applicable to the discussion of the necessity of baptism.

A Christian is instructed to speak as the oracles of God (1 Pet. 4:11) - - meaning - - there is an enormous difference between man's opinion and God's word. As one considers the necessity of baptism, his/her conclusion should be based on the word of God. To get to the point, I am not interested in hearing one's opinion alone; An opinion only carries weight when coupled with a bible passage.

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I don't hold to dispensationalist theology, so the concept of people dying under the Old Law v. the New Law is not part of my analysis.

fragmentsofdreams said:

I don't hold to dispensationalist theology, so the concept of people dying under the Old Law v. the New Law is not part of my analysis.

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This isn't dipensationalism; this is dealing with a coveant relationship between God and man, something that I believe the Scriptures teach very clearly:


Hebrews 8:13 ASV

In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.


We are no longer under the Old Covenant, but if we are to have our sins forgiven we must become partakers in the New Covenant.

It's still going?

Wow!

I'm really surprised, since there is one obvious and incontrivertable answer to this question that should be glaringly obvious from reading the Scriptures...

Isn't there?



Postconservative Postrestorationist Zealot,

Philo

Qoheleth said:

Is baptism necessary for salvation

The answer is a simple, "No." But you might ask, "If the answer is no, then why are there verses that say things like ‘. . .baptism that now saves you . . . ‘ (1 Pet. 3:21, NIV) and ‘ . . . Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins . . ." (Acts 2:38, NIV)? This is an honest question and it needs a competent answer. But, before I tackle this I need to lay a foundation of proper theology, then I'll address some of those verses that are commonly used to support the idea that baptism is necessary for salvation.

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God Works Covenantally ​

First, you need to understand that God works covenantally. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties. The New Testament and Old Testaments are New and Old Covenants. The word "testament" comes from the Latin testamentum which means covenant. So, the Bible is a covenant document. If you don't understand covenant you cannot understand, in totality, the issue of baptism because baptism is a covenant sign.​

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If you don't think that God works covenantally then look at Heb 13:20 which says, "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep" (NIV). The Eternal Covenant is the covenant between the Father and the Son before the creation of the world, whereby the Father would give to the Son those whom the Father had chosen. That is why Jesus says things like, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away" (John 6:37, NIV). And, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day" (John 6:39, NIV). And, "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours" (John 17:9, NIV).

If you fail to understand that God works covenantally and that He uses signs as manifestations of his covenants (rainbow, circumcision, communion, etc.) then you will not be able to understand where baptism fits in God's covenant system.
Second, you need to know what baptism is. It is an outward representation of an inward reality. For example, it represents the reality of the inward washing of Christ's blood upon the soul. That is why it is used in different ways. It is said to represent the death of the person (Rom. 6:3-5), the union of that person with Christ (Gal. 3:27), the cleansing of that person's sins (Acts 22:16), the identification with the one "baptized into" as when the Israelites were baptized into Moses (1 Cor. 10:2), and being united in one church (1 Cor. 12:13). Also, baptism is one of the signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace that was instituted by Jesus. It is in this sense a sacrament. A sacrament is a visible manifestation of something spoken. It is also said to be a visible sign of an inward grace. For example, the communion elements of bread and wine are called the sacrament of communion. When we take communion we are partaking of the sacrament.

The Covenant of Grace is the covenant between God and Man where God promises to Man eternal life. It is based upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the condition is faith in Jesus Christ. As the Communion Supper replaced Passover, baptism, in like manner, replaces circumcision. "They represent the same spiritual blessings that were symbolized by circumcision and Passover in the old dispensation" (Berkhoff, Lewis, Systematic Theology, 1988, p. 620.).

Circumcision was the initiatory rite into the Abrahamic covenant; it did not save. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties and that is exactly what the Abrahamic covenant was. God said to Abraham, "I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you" (Genesis 17:7, NIV). God later instructed Abraham to circumcise not only every adult male, but also 8 day old male infants as a sign of the covenant (Gen. 17:9-13). If the children were not circumcised, they were not considered to be under the promissory Abrahamic covenant. This is why Moses' wife circumcised her son and threw the foreskin at Moses' feet. (Ex. 4:24-25). She knew the importance of the covenant between God and her children. But at the same time we must understand that circumcision did not guarantee salvation to all who received it. It was a rite meant only for the people of God, who were born into the family of God (who were then the Jews).
An important question here is how is it possible for an infant to be entered into a covenant with God. There could be a lot of answers given but the point remains: it was done; infants were entered into a covenant relationship with God -- through their parents.
In the New Testament, circumcision is mentioned many times. But with respect to this topic it is specifically mentioned in Col. 2:11-12: "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead" (NIV). In these verses, baptism and circumcision are related. Baptism replaces the Old Testament circumcision because 1) there was a New Covenant in the communion supper (Luke 22:20), and 2) in circumcision there was the shedding of blood but in baptism no blood is shed. This is because the blood of Christ has been shed.

If you understand that baptism is a covenant sign, then you can see that it is a representation of the reality of Christ circumcising our hearts (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11-12). It is our outward proclamation of the inward spiritual blessing of regeneration. It comes after faith which is a gift of God (Rom. 12:3) and the work of God (John 6:28).
Third, the Bible says that it is the gospel that saves. "By this gospel you are saved..." (1 Cor. 15:2). Also, Rom. 1:16 says, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."

What is the Gospel? ​

It is clearly the gospel that saves us. But what exactly is the gospel? That too is revealed to us in the Bible. It is found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." The gospel is defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for our sins. Baptism is not mentioned here. ​

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Colossians 2:11-13 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

Now this is very easy to see. When does a person become spirtual circimcized? The text makes it clear that it is at the point of baptism (immersion) when one in circumcized spritually. And notice very carefully that it is not until someone baptized/spirtually circumcized that they become dead to the trespasses. This makes it clear that one can be raised alive with Christ one cannot have their sins removed until they have been baptized/ spirtual cirucumzied in Christ. As you examine the conversions in acts you can see that this baptism was something adminstered by men in the name of Jesus which was done in water. So if you want to be saved you had better obey the will of God and be baptized/spirtual circumzied into Christ.

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Paul said that he came to preach the gospel, not to baptize: "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor. 1:14-17). If baptism is necessary for salvation then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the description of what is required for salvation? It is because baptism isn't necessary for salvation.

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1 CORINTHIANS 1:12-17
This passage proves beyond doubt that baptism is necessary in order to be saved. It has often been overlooked, however, as a key to proving its necessity.
In verse 13 Paul set down an undeniable truth. He mentions two things that are necessary to belong to Paul, Cephas, Apollos, or Christ. (1) That person must have been crucified for you; (2) you must have been baptized in the name of that person.
Paul said, "Was Paul crucified for you?" In other words, was Paul crucified so you could be forgiven of your sins? Secondly, "Were you baptized in the name of Paul?" "In the name of" in this passage means that a person baptized in someone's name assigns them to that person. Thus, if any were baptized in the name of Paul they were assigned the name of Paul. They would become "of Paul." This is where the proof resides. In order to be assigned to Christ, a person must be baptized "in the name of" Christ. Gal. 3:27 makes it clear that "As many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." If a person belongs to Christ, Christ was crucified for him, and he must also have been baptized into Him.
Notice further that Paul was thankful that he didn't baptize many people. The reason was because he feared that some may say they had been baptized in his own name. Again, this overwhelmingly affirms that one must be baptized in the name of Christ to be "of Christ!"
Some will argue that Paul was saying that baptism wasn't important when he said, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (V17). This simply is not true. Again, Paul was thankful he did not baptize many because of his fear that some would say they were "of" him.
Paul would have been disregarding Christs' clear command to "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them ...." (Mat. 28:19). Paul was either disregarding this explicit instruction given by Jesus, or he must have not meant that baptism was not important. Further, if "Christ sent me not to baptize" means that Paul was forbidden to baptize, then he disobeyed Jesus, because he says that he did baptize Crispus and Gaius.
The word "sent" (Greek, APESTALEV) involves the meaning of "made me an apostle." Jesus made Paul an apostleprimarily to preach. Anyone can baptize, but only a select few had the privilege to be an apostle of Christ.
It would be impossible for Paul to mean that baptism was not important. He was baptized himself (Ac. 22:16). He emphasized that baptism was a burial; (Rom. 6:3-5; Col. 2:121; he said that it cloths a person with Christ (Gal. 3:27); and that it put's a person into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).
Some try to put the gospel at opposite ends with baptism. In other words, some say that baptism is not a part of the gospel of Christ. Jesus said, however, "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." (Mk. 16:16). Clearly Jesus said that baptism is a part of the gospel. If baptism is not a part of the gospel then Peter, John, Paul, and Phillip were all preaching something other than what Jesus commanded them to preach. Phillip "preached unto him Jesus" (Ac. 8:35) yet the Eunuch somehow learned that he needed to be baptized. Peter cried, "Repent and be baptized..." in response to the Jews question, "What shall we do?" (Ac. 2:37-38). Clearly baptism is a part of the gospel of Christ. And this being so, those who don't obey the gospel will have vengeance taken upon them at Christs' second coming (2 Thess. 1:7-9).

Additionally, in Acts, Peter was preaching the gospel, people got saved, and then they were baptized. Acts 10:44-46 says, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days" (NIV). These people were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit was on the Gentiles and they were speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a gift given to believers, see 1 Cor. 14:1-5. Also, unbelievers don't praise God. They can't because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved and they are saved before they are baptized. This simply isn't an exception. It is a reality.

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I will comment on this more fully if need be but Wayne Jackson gives a good summary that answers the above statement.



First, Cornelius’ reception of the Holy Spirit represented a very unique situation. He was the first Gentile to be offered the gospel. This was a revolutionary step in the unfolding of God’s scheme of redemption.

The fact is, the supernatural work of the Spirit in this case had nothing at all to do with Cornelius’ personal salvation. The outpouring of the Spirit was to persuade the Jews that Gentiles had a right to the kingdom of heaven, as well as Jews. Note these passages.



Second, the apostle Peter, in his defense of the Gentiles’ acceptance into the church, made it very clear that God “made no distinction between them [Gentiles] and us [Jews]” in the matter of salvation (Acts 15:9). If one can learn, therefore, what the Jews were required to do in order to secure the remission of their sins, he will be forced to conclude that the identical process applied to Cornelius and his household.

Acts 2 contains the record of the first Jewish response to the gospel. Believers who had been convinced of the message regarding Christ were instructed: “[R]epent and be immersed ... for the forgiveness of your sins” (2:38). Baptism was crucial to their obedience.

One must conclude that Cornelius was under an equal obligation. No wonder Peter “commanded” the Gentile soldier to be immersed (10:48). Third, according to Peter’s rehearsal of these events, which is more chronological than is Luke’s original record (cf. 11:4), the Spirit fell upon Cornelius just as the apostle “began to speak” (11:15), and therefore, before this Gentile even heard the message, hence, before he had faith (cf. Rom. 10:17). If the argument mentioned above is valid, then Cornelius was saved without faith – which is quite unreasonable.

Qoheleth said:

Let's Suppose... ​

Another way of making this clear is to use an illustration. Let's suppose that a person, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), believed in Jesus as his savior (Rom. 10:9-10; Titus 2:13), and has received Christ (John 1:12) as Savior. Is that person saved? Of course he is. Let's further suppose that this person confesses his sinfulness, cries out in repentance to the Lord, and receives Jesus as Savior and then walks across the street to get baptized at a local church. In the middle of the road he gets hit by a car and is killed. Does he go to heaven or hell? If he goes to heaven then baptism isn't necessary for salvation. If He goes to hell, then trusting in Jesus, by faith, isn't enough for salvation. Doesn't that go against the Scriptures that say that salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23) received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9)? ​

Saying that baptism is necessary for salvation is dangerous because it is saying that there is something we must do to complete salvation. That is wrong! See Gal. 2:21; 5:4.
All right, so this sounds reasonable. But still, what about those verses that seem to say that baptism is part of salvation? I'll address those now. But, because this subject can become quite lengthy, in fact, sufficient for a book in itself, I'll only address a few verses and then only briefly.

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I love when people bring up lets suppose or what if questions. This a tactic used to try confuse people and to get them off the topic at hand. I firmly belive the Bible teaches that one must be water baptized in order to be saved. I would have to say that if a person crossing the street died on their way to being baptized then they are still lost based on the word. However, I challenge you to find a time that has ever happend. Lets say I give it to you and say yes in this unusaully circumstance this person was saved. What would that person situation have to do with you. Are you being killed on your way to be baptized? Nothing is preventing you from obeying the will of God. I could ask what if questions to. What if a person was going to belive in God and a preacher came to visit him to teach him about God but when he knocks at the door the man trips on his stairs and dies before hears the word of God would he be saved? We need to check the what if statements at the door and deal with reality.

Salvation is a free gift in the sense that we can never ever earn our salvation God has given us salvation thorough his son and his word. If salvation was a free gift as you are trying to describe it then man would have absoultly nothing to do on his part to receive the free gift. That would rule out faith, repentance, confessing Jesus as lord, baptism and living a faithful life until death. Are you will to embrace univeral salvation because that is what you are saying in your above argument.

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Baptism Verses ​

John 3:5, "Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.'"
Some say that water here means baptism. But that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism isn't necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced.
It is my opinion that the water spoken of here means the water of the womb referring to the natural birth process. Jesus said in verse three that Nicodemus needed to be born "again." This meant that he had been born once--through his mother. Nicodemus responds with a statement about how he can't enter again into his mother's womb to be born. Then Jesus says that he must be born of water and the Spirit. Then in verse 6 He says that "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.." The context seems to be discussing the contrast between the natural and the spiritual birth. Water, therefore, could easily be interpreted there to mean the natural birth process.
I would like to add that there are scholars who agree with the position and some who do not. Some believe that the water refers to the Word of God, the Bible, and others claim it means the Holy Spirit. You decide for yourself.

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Your making alot of asumptions again.

Jn. 3:5Spirit</FONT>water</FONT>kingdom</FONT>I Cor. 12:13Spirit</FONT>baptism</FONT>body</FONT>Eph. 5:26Word</FONT>water</FONT>cleansed</FONT>***. 3:5Holy Spirit</FONT>washing</FONT>saved</FONT>

Notice how all 4 of these verses teach the same thing. The Holy spirit teaches us through the word the we must be baptized in water in order to enter into the church/kingdom where we enter into a saved conditon.

Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.‘"
This verse is a tough one. It seems to say that baptism is part of salvation. But we know, from other scriptures that it isn't, lest there be a contradiction. What is going on here is simply that repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected. In the Greek, "repent" is in the plural and so is "your" of "your sins." They are meant to be understood as being related to each other. It is like saying, "All of you repent, each of you get baptized, and all of you will receive forgiveness." Repentance is a mark of salvation because it is granted by God (2 Tim. 2:25) and is given to believers only. In this context, only the regenerated, repentant person is to be baptized. Baptism is the manifestation of the repentance, that gift from God, that is the sign of the circumcised heart. That is why it says, repent and get baptized.

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This is bogus and you know it. There have been a small few who have tried to pervert this text from the Greek and they have failed. repentance and baptism are equally tied together from the Greek and both are equally necessars for the remisson of sin. Theres no way you can make the greek word eis mean because of in this sentence.

Pet. 3:21, "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also -- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
This is the only verse that says that baptism saves. But, the NIV translation of the verse is unfortunate. A better translation is found in the NASB which says, "and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." The key word in this section is the Greek antitupon. It means "copy," "type," corresponding to," "a thing resembling another," "its counterpart," etc. Baptism is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is "Of what is it a type?", or "Baptism corresponds to what?". The answer is found in the previous verse, verse 20: "who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you" (NASB).
What does baptism correspond to? Is it the flood? Or, is it the ark? What was it that saved Noah and his family? Was it the water or the ark? Obviously, it was the Ark. Noah built and entered the ark by faith and was saved (Heb. 11:7). The flood waters destroyed the ungodly. Peter, when referring to the flood waters, refers to them as the means of destruction of the ungodly (2 Pet. 2:5; 3:6). It was the Ark that saved. Noah entered the ark by faith. Baptism here, in my opinion, refers to the Ark, not the waters. That is why the rest of the verse says, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God" which is consistent with what Paul said in Col. 2:11-12 where He equates baptism with being circumcised of heart.

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1 Pet. 3:21 -- Having affirmed that salvation in the days of Noah was through the water of the flood, Peter now draws a comparison with the water of baptism: "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." The ASV says that this is "a true likeness." Salvation offered through water in the days of Noah is exactly parallel to salvation offered through water baptism. Baptism is the antitype of the waters of the great flood.
The water itself had no saving power in the flood, nor does it have any saving power today. The saving power for Noah was his obedience to God's Word. Eight souls obeyed God and prepared an ark, and God saved them through water. Today people obey the gospel plan of salvation culminating in water baptism, and God likewise saves them through water. The power of salvation is in God, rather than in the water.
The likenesses are seen in the similitude of the salvation through water in the days of Noah and water baptism in the Christian age. The waters of the flood bore the ark up and thus separated those in the ark from those outside the ark. Those in the ark were saved, and those outside perished. The flood also purged Noah's world of the sin that had been so prevalent and so deadly.
Water baptism in like fashion provides salvation through water to those inside the church, which is the spiritual ark of God today. Baptism separates the godly from the ungodly, because those who are Scripturally baptized kill off the old man of sin and bury it in the waters of baptism, to be resurrected a new man who no longer serves sin (Rom. 6:3-4). Thus, the old man is purged from sin never to serve sin again.
In order to insure that there are no misunderstandings concerning Peter's meaning of water baptism, he makes it clear in this verse that he is not talking about washing dirt from the physical body.
The baptism Peter is discussing in this verse is an interrogation of a good conscience. The word interrogate means "to inquire seriously or question." Baptism is not some outward, meaningless act. Baptism involves honestly and sincerely coming to God on His terms, seeking to be reconciled to God. A good conscience helps in the process of bringing one to Christ in gospel obedience. When one hears the Word of God, a person who has a good (properly functioning) conscience will be convicted of sin. The conscience convicts of sin, and thus leads a person to repent of sin and to be baptized for the remission of sin, first confessing Jesus Christ as the Son of God.
Our salvation upon being baptized is "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Without the resurrection of Christ the gospel plan of salvation and everything connected to it would be meaningless. There would be no means by which we could be saved! Baptism saves now only because Christ not only died on the cross for our sins, but also because He was resurrected on the third day.

Acts 22:16, "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."
Is the washing away of sins done by baptism, the representation of the circumcised heart (Col. 2:11-12) which means you are already saved, or is it by the blood of Christ (Heb. 9:14; Rom. 5:9; Eph. 1:7)? Obviously it is the blood of Jesus and the washing here refers to the calling on Jesus' name.

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No its not done by the water itself but the washing of the sins is done at the point of baptism by your faith in the working of God Col 2:12. By the way calling on the name of the Lord and getting yourself immersed according to the greek happen at the same time. This verse proves that water baptism is essential to salvation. Paul was already beliver and had repented and even confess Jesus as lord and was praying for 3 days yet he was still in his sins. Ananias told him what he needed to know in order to become saved and that was getting himself baptized. Also note this on the idea of calling on the lord from Peters sermon on the day of Pentacost.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'
We know that this is not merely vocal call Mat 7:21. We find that in Acts 37 after hearing these words and others the people wanted to know what they should do. In verse 38 we see Peter tells them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sin. Again we can see clearly that calling on the name of the Lord involves these elements.

Rom. 6:4, "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
Because the believer is so closely united to Christ it is said that the symbol of baptism is our death, burial, and resurrection. Obviously we did not die--unless, of course, it is a figurative usage.

Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."
The washing of rebirth can only be that washing of the blood of Christ that cleanses us. It is not the symbol that saves, but the reality. The reality is the blood of Christ.

Gal. 3:27, "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."
This is speaking of the believer's union with Christ. It is an identification with, a joining to, a proclamation of loyalty to, etc. In 1 Cor. 10:2 the Israelites were baptized into Moses. That means they were closely identified with him and his purpose. The same thing is meant here.

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Rom 6 depicts vividly what happens as we obey the will of God and are baptized into Christ death. Read the chapter and you will see clearly that we do not have forgiveness of sin or the promise of being raised with Christ until we are baptized.

I have already dealt with Titus 3:5.

Between Gal 3:27 and Rom 6:3 are some of the only verses that tells us how we get into Christ where are the spritual blessings are and salvation is to be found Eph 1:3, 7 2Tim 2:1, 10. If you want to be found in Christ where all these are found then you must be baptized into Christ.

Hebrews 5:8-9 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Matthew 7:21 21 " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

fragmentsofdreams said:

I don't hold to dispensationalist theology, so the concept of people dying under the Old Law v. the New Law is not part of my analysis.

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What else should I consider?

cougan said:

I However, I challenge you to find a time that has ever happend. Lets say I give it to you and say yes in this unusaully circumstance this person was saved. What would that person situation have to do with you. Are you being killed on your way to be baptized? Nothing is preventing you from obeying the will of God. I could ask what if questions to. What if a person was going to belive in God and a preacher came to visit him to teach him about God but when he knocks at the door the man trips on his stairs and dies before hears the word of God would he be saved? We need to check the what if statements at the door and deal with reality.

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You got me there. I can't recall a single person who died on their way to being baptised.
However, virtually all members of The Salvation Army are unbaptised. So, all the dead ones are unsaved, in your analysis. And for the ones who are alive, it's just a matter of time.

So you will see why this seems harsh to me. Why would God raises us up as a movement, only to damn us all to hell? Perhaps He didn't raise us up. In which case...

what???

Now this is very easy to see. When does a person become spirtual circimcized? The text makes it clear that it is at the point of baptism (immersion) when one in circumcized spritually

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...And lets not forget that the Old covenant, physical act (circumcision) does not save and so neither does the New covenant physical act of circumcision (baptism) save. Is it that you believe that the OC circumcision saved??

And notice very carefully that it is not until someone baptized/spirtually circumcized that they become dead to the trespasses.

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Yes "spiritually", not in water! Water a sign demonstrating a real existence of a covenant

What is the New Testament counterpart or parallel to the Old Testament rite of circumcision? Answer: it is not the New Testament rite of baptism; it is the New Testament spiritual event of the circumcision of Christ cutting away "the [old sinful] body of the flesh." then, baptism is brought in as the external expression of that spiritual reality. That is precisely what the link between verses 11 and 12 says. Christ does a circumcision without hands : that is the New Testament, spiritual fulfillment of Old Testament circumcision. Then verse 12 draws the parallel between that spiritual fulfillment and the external rite of baptism.

Notice what verse 11 stresses about the new work of Christ in circumcising: it is a circumcision "without hands." But water baptism is emphatically a ritual done "with hands." If we simply say that this New Testament ordinance of baptism done with hands corresponds to the Old Testament ritual of circumcision done with hands, then we miss the most important truth: something new is happening in the creation of people of God called the church of Christ. They are being created by a "circumcision without hands" by God. They are being raised from the dead by God. And baptism is a sign of that, not a repetition of the Old Testament sign. There is a new sign of the covenant because the covenant people are being constituted in a new way : by spiritual birth, not physical birth.

This is bogus and you know it. There have been a small few who have tried to pervert this text from the Greek and they have failed. repentance and baptism are equally tied together from the Greek and both are equally necessars for the remisson of sin. Theres no way you can make the greek word eis mean because of in this sentence.

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Thank you for casting the dispersion brother. In any case...


Because of faulty teaching, the word "for" as used in Acts 2:38 MUST mean "in order to obtain." However, this is NOT true either! In LUKE 5:13,14 we read of a leper who was immediately healed when Jesus touched him and spoke. After his healing, Jesus told him, "... go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer FOR thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them." Notice: the man ALREADY HAD his cleansing from leprosy when Jesus told him to go to the priest and bring an offering "FOR THY CLEANSING." If you tried to substitute "in order to obtain" in place of the word "for" in Lk. 5:13,14 it would NOT fit!

Similarly, the common remedy, "take two aspirins FOR a headache," refutes the idea that "for" MUST mean "in order to obtain." (No one would take two aspirins "in order to obtain" a headache!) Do the greek and english my friend!

Abiel said:

You got me there. I can't recall a single person who died on their way to being baptised.
However, virtually all members of The Salvation Army are unbaptised. So, all the dead ones are unsaved, in your analysis. And for the ones who are alive, it's just a matter of time.

So you will see why this seems harsh to me. Why would God raises us up as a movement, only to damn us all to hell? Perhaps He didn't raise us up. In which case...

what???

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As your personal quote states, one is not to walk according to his own knowledge, but he is to lean on the Lord and his path will be directed. How is one to rely on the Lord? The only way that one can know the Lord is through His word (Romans 10:17). The point is, one is to look to the word of God for strength and guidance. As one considers "baptism" and it's significance, one is to look to the scriptures - - and not to his own understanding.

I have noticed that the Salvation Army keeps coming up in the discussion.... Instead of focusing upon what any group of people believe, let's open up our bibles and come to an understanding of the word of God - - because that is what's important.

I love when people bring up lets suppose or what if questions. This a tactic used to try confuse people and to get them off the topic at hand. I firmly belive the Bible teaches that one must be water baptized in order to be saved. I would have to say that if a person crossing the street died on their way to being baptized then they are still lost based on the word. However, I challenge you to find a time that has ever happend. Lets say I give it to you and say yes in this unusaully circumstance this person was saved. What would that person situation have to do with you. Are you being killed on your way to be baptized? Nothing is preventing you from obeying the will of God. I could ask what if questions to. What if a person was going to belive in God and a preacher came to visit him to teach him about God but when he knocks at the door the man trips on his stairs and dies before hears the word of God would he be saved? We need to check the what if statements at the door and deal with reality.

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Im sorry you feel my statments are made as an attempt to confound others, thank you for yet another insult my friend.

Deductive reasoning, (God given) with a spiritual mind, simply asks the questions with a seeking, humble heart. The situation is indeed possible and therefore considered as a "what if", not to confuse but to search and understand for the sake of obedience.

So the individual who hears the word, submits, repents and wishes to be baptised and drives to the local pastor to request this baptism to be done. He is involved in a car accident and is killed (so you think that is entirely impossible in our world-right?).

No its not done by the water itself but the washing of the sins is done at the point of baptism by your faith in the working of God Col 2:12. By the way calling on the name of the Lord and getting yourself immersed according to the greek happen at the same time. This verse proves that water baptism is essential to salvation. Paul was already beliver and had repented and even confess Jesus as lord and was praying for 3 days yet he was still in his sins. Ananias told him what he needed to know in order to become saved and that was getting himself baptized. Also note this on the idea of calling on the lord from Peters sermon on the day of Pentacost.

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Acts & Paul



This verse reads, "And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Several important points must be noted regarding this passage.



First, the "WASH[ING] AWAY [OF] THY SINS" is coordinated with "calling on the name of the Lord." In other words, it's the SAME ONE who calls on the name of the Lord that gets his/her sins washed away! A person getting baptized does NOT do this!



Second, if you'll read Acts chapters 9, 22 and 26, you'll get the full picture of what happened with Saul and Ananias. A VERY IMPORTANT verse relevant to the proper understanding of Acts 22:16 is ACTS 9:17. This verse tells us WHY the Lord Jesus sent Ananias to Saul (Paul)! Ananias said, "... Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost." Therefore, the twofold purpose the Lord sent Ananias to Saul was (1) So he would receive his physical eyesight and (2) Get filled with the Holy Ghost. The point is: JESUS NEVER SENT ANANIAS TO HIS "CHOSEN VESSEL" TO GET HIM SAVED! He was already saved! IF Saul still needed to get saved when Jesus was informing Ananias what to do, He certainly would have known it and would have put that on the top of Ananias' list! However, Jesus NEVER EVEN INDIRECTLY MENTIONED SUCH as He sent Ananias forth! Can YOU see this? Also, when one is sent to another to get him filled with the Holy Ghost, as Ananias was sent, the person to be filled is ALWAYS A CHRISTIAN ALREADY (Acts 8:14-17)! These verses report that the Apostles in Jerusalem sent Peter and John to those in Samaria, WHO WERE ALREADY SAVED, so they might receive the Holy Ghost!

Thirdly, Paul stated about the Gospel, "For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ," Gal. 1:12. IF Paul learned the Gospel (the plan of salvation) from Ananias, which would be the case IF Acts 22:16 means as certain groups interpret it, then Paul could have NEVER said this! (Finally, related to Saul's conversion on the Damascus road is Acts 26:17,18.

Salvation offered through water in the days of Noah is exactly parallel to salvation offered through water baptism. Baptism is the antitype of the waters of the great flood.
The water itself had no saving power in the flood, nor does it have any saving power today. The saving power for Noah was his obedience to God's Word. Eight souls obeyed God and prepared an ark, and God saved them through water. Today people obey the gospel plan of salvation culminating in water baptism, and God likewise saves them through water. The power of salvation is in God, rather than in the water.
The likenesses are seen in the similitude of the salvation through water in the days of Noah and water baptism in the Christian age

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These verses read, "... eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."



Unfortunately, teachers have taken parts of these verses out of context The words, "saved by water," are an example. The context reveals that the subjects, the eight souls "saved," were those in NOAH'S ARK! Also, other reputable translations (NIV, Amplified, Revised Standard, etc.) read "saved THROUGH water," since the Greek work (di) translated "by" in the KJV also means "THROUGH." The eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were in the ark (a type of Christ). THEY WERE NOT SAVED BY THE WATER, AS THE CONTEXT REVEALS. Heb. 11:7 is very clear on this point.



At this point, it must be noted that every time the word "save" or its derivative is used, it does NOT always refer to one's immortal soul! A few examples are: "the prayer of faith shall SAVE the sick" (James 5:15) and "all hope that we should be SAVED was taken away" (Acts 27:20). Neither one of these last two cited references refer to the soul. They are just like 1 Peter 3:21 in this aspect!



WHAT does water baptism SAVE us from? Verse 21 says water baptism SAVES us from a bad conscience towards God. Having a good conscience (and holding on to faith) are important as shown by some rejecting these who consequently have shipwrecked their faith (1 Tim. 1:18,19). However, as important as baptism is, it still plays NO ROLE, direct or indirect, in initial salvation, or as we might also say, getting "born again." Baptism does NOT put away the "FILTH OF THE FLESH" (v.21). See Gal. 5:19-21 for a list of these sins. (Remember Cornelius, Acts 10:43-48 cf. 15:9-11).

The context of 1 Pet. 3:20,21 reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED! Considering all this, does it seem to you that some are wresting 1 Pet. 3:20,21 out of context and, perhaps even "unto their own destruction" (2 Pet. 3:16)?

Thank you for casting the dispersion brother. In any case...


Because of faulty teaching, the word "for" as used in Acts 2:38 MUST mean "in order to obtain." However, this is NOT true either! In LUKE 5:13,14 we read of a leper who was immediately healed when Jesus touched him and spoke. After his healing, Jesus told him, "... go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer FOR thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them." Notice: the man ALREADY HAD his cleansing from leprosy when Jesus told him to go to the priest and bring an offering "FOR THY CLEANSING." If you tried to substitute "in order to obtain" in place of the word "for" in Lk. 5:13,14 it would NOT fit!

Similarly, the common remedy, "take two aspirins FOR a headache," refutes the idea that "for" MUST mean "in order to obtain." (No one would take two aspirins "in order to obtain" a headache!) Do the greek and english my friend!

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Why thank you Q for your responses. I wish I had time to cover all your argurments you made but I am running short on time. But, I cant resist commiting on this one above. First of all I dont think I ever defined "for" (eis) as "in order to obtain". It is simply defined in such ways as into, unto, or for to name a few. It however is not used in the sense as "because of". By the way your verse will not work that you are trying to use you apparently didnt examine the Greek close enough before you made your bold statement above.

Luke 5:14 And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

Here is where you made your mistake the word For here is not the greek word EIS. Instead it is the Greek word PERI which is defined as about, concerning, on account of, because of, around, near. You see Q if Peter who was inspired by the Holy Spirit to speak in Acts 2:38 had wanted the message to be clear that one was baptized because they were saved he would of use the Greek word PERI that you have pointed out here in Luke 5:14. But thats not the case is it Q? Peter used used the greek word EIS and he tied repentence and baptism together with the coordinating conjunction and which makes impossible to seperate repentance and baptism which was FOR the remission of sin. Q if you want me to go deeper from the Greek on this verse just let me know and I will take it to the next level. However, I really dont see any need to since you have helped out with your mistake to prove that repentance and baptism are necessary for one to have remmission of sins. Just as added note notice very carefully what the rest of the text says.

Acts 2:40-41 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Notice those who received Peters word about repenting and be baptized for the remmisson of sins were BAPTIZED. Again notice it was only those that were baptized that were added to them. Just as 1Cor 12:13 states that one is added to the church at the point of baptism. One put into Christ where all the spirtual blessing are at the point of baptism Gal 3:27, Rom. 6:3. Jesus made it clear in the great commission to make disciples by baptizing them in the name of the father son holy ghost Mat. 28:19 and he said the same thing in Mark 16:15. One last verse.

Mark 16:16 16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Again from the greek belives and baptized are tied together by the cordinating conjuction and and cannot be seperated and from the greek both belives and baptized have to occur before one becomes saved.

That is the plan simple truth of the matter and no matter how hard you try to get around this easy to understand truth you cannot change it.

Cougan

Abiel said:

You got me there. I can't recall a single person who died on their way to being baptised.
However, virtually all members of The Salvation Army are unbaptised. So, all the dead ones are unsaved, in your analysis. And for the ones who are alive, it's just a matter of time.

So you will see why this seems harsh to me. Why would God raises us up as a movement, only to damn us all to hell? Perhaps He didn't raise us up. In which case...

what???

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I am sorry if you think I am being harsh. That is not my objective. I am simply stating what the word of God says. I take the word of God very seriously and I have to check my personal feelings and thoughts at the door and just rely upon the word of God and his perfect will. I am not personally attacking you or the salvation army I am only trying to teach you the word of God. I challenge you to find the salvation army church in the Bible. Take a look at Eph 4:4ff you will see that there is only 1 body/church. If you are going to call you church something it should be called something that glorifies its owner Jesus Christ. Jesus purchased the church with his own blood Act 20:28 and we should use names or designations authorized in the Bible. Notice a few of the authorized designations.

Romans 16:16​

I think I understand you better now. Am unsubscribing from this thread.

I just found this site and I'm not about to try and catch up on all the posts, but I have studied this topic extensively and would like to offer my humble opinion on it.

First of all, we should not make assumptions about who will or will not enter heaven, however, we can use the knowledge that we have to make the application that most fits the Word. Don't argue with theorhetical situations.

Currently, this is my understanding...

1) Baptism of the Holy Spirit is completely different than water baptism
2) Water baptism is one of the acts of obedience that God chose as a MEANS by which to forgive sin and for a believer to become a Christian.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit (as best as I can tell) no longer applies to us and is distinctly different from water baptism. There are numerous passages to prove this, but the distinction is most easily seen in the conversion of Cornelius where the group was first baptized in the Holy Spirit and then w/ water baptism:

Acts 10:47 - "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did (Acts 1:5, 2:4), can he?"


Water baptism is defined by inference in 1 Peter 3:21 as the "removal of dirt from the body". 1 Peter 3 explains baptism well. He likens it to how water saved Noah. On the surface, no one would consider water as what saved Noah, but consider it as the means by which he was saved. The act of obedience of creating the ark for water.

1 Peter 3:20-21 - "...who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ..."

People may say, "See! It's not the water that saves you." Well, you're right. But... We know that Peter is referring to water baptism above... Why did God even mention water or baptism if it isn't what he wanted?

shew thought i was gonna have to to alot of argueing.... but good job Henslee! Good way of explaining it... i'm Church Of Christ... glad we have similar opinions and facts on this issue


To be saved you MUST:-
1.HEAR- Romans 10:13-17.
2.BELIEVE-John 3:16,Hebrews 11:1,Hebrews 11:6.
3.REPENT- Luke 13:3, 1 Corinthians 7:10.
4.CONFESSION- Matthew 10:32-33, Romans 10:9-10.
5.BAPTISM(Immersion)- Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16.
6.LIVING FAITHFULLY- Hebrews 10:23-39, Revelations 2:10

Conversions of the Bible
1.Pentecost:-Acts 2:14-41 Baptized:- vs:38-41
2.Samaria:-Acts8:5-13 Baptized:- vs:12-13
3.Enuch:-Acts 8:35-39 Baptized:- vs:38
4.Saul:-Acts 9:17-19 Baptized:- vs:16
5.Cornelius:-Acts 10:34-48 Baptized:- vs:48
6.The Jailer:-Acts 16:29-33 Baptized:- vs:33
7.Lydia:-Acts 16:13 Baptized:- vs:15
8.Corinthians:-Acts18:8 Baptized:- vs:8

Reasons For Baptism
1.To make Disciples:-Matthew 28:19
2.Remission of Sins:-Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38,1 Peter 3:18-21
3.Walk in the newness of Life:-Romans 6:3-4
4.Baptized into one Spirit:-1 Cointhians 15:29-30
5.Get into Christ:-Galations 3:27, Colossians 2:12
6.To become Saved:-1 Peter 3:18-21
7.Washing of Regeneration:Titus 3:5

bookchapterverse said:

shew thought i was gonna have to to alot of argueing.... but good job Henslee! Good way of explaining it... i'm Church Of Christ... glad we have similar opinions and facts on this issue


To be saved you MUST:-
1.HEAR- Romans 10:13-17.
2.BELIEVE-John 3:16,Hebrews 11:1,Hebrews 11:6.
3.REPENT- Luke 13:3, 1 Corinthians 7:10.
4.CONFESSION- Matthew 10:32-33, Romans 10:9-10.
5.BAPTISM(Immersion)- Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16.
6.LIVING FAITHFULLY- Hebrews 10:23-39, Revelations 2:10

Conversions of the Bible
1.Pentecost:-Acts 2:14-41 Baptized:- vs:38-41
2.Samaria:-Acts8:5-13 Baptized:- vs:12-13
3.Enuch:-Acts 8:35-39 Baptized:- vs:38
4.Saul:-Acts 9:17-19 Baptized:- vs:16
5.Cornelius:-Acts 10:34-48 Baptized:- vs:48
6.The Jailer:-Acts 16:29-33 Baptized:- vs:33
7.Lydia:-Acts 16:13 Baptized:- vs:15
8.Corinthians:-Acts18:8 Baptized:- vs:8

Reasons For Baptism
1.To make Disciples:-Matthew 28:19
2.Remission of Sins:-Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38,1 Peter 3:18-21
3.Walk in the newness of Life:-Romans 6:3-4
4.Baptized into one Spirit:-1 Cointhians 15:29-30
5.Get into Christ:-Galations 3:27, Colossians 2:12
6.To become Saved:-1 Peter 3:18-21
7.Washing of Regeneration:Titus 3:5

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Just wanted to tell you your name is really funny to me.

That's all.



Philo