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Empathy

partinobodycular

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Laws do not judge character. Laws judge acts.

Which is exactly my point. As Jesus pointed out in Matthew 5:28 it's actually lust that's the sin, but the law can't tell what's in a person's heart and so it judges them according to the act alone, and not according to what's in their heart. Homosexuality is thus universally condemned because of the act itself, regardless of whether that act was born out of lust or love. Therein lies the law's flaw... it cannot judge hearts. But God can, and hopefully the members of His church can, and it's this ability to judge people by what's in their heart that allows divorced people and homosexual people to be welcome in God's church.
 
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zippy2006

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Your argument, that attributing our highest aspirations to transcendent figures is just projection...
If we're just doing strawmen then I'll say that your argument that no one ever projects their personal beliefs on cultural heroes is naive.
 
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zippy2006

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As Jesus pointed out in Matthew 5:28 it's actually lust that's the sin, but the law can't tell what's in a person's heart and so it judges them according to the act alone, and not according to what's in their heart.
You imply that Jesus thinks the act of adultery may or may not involve lust, and we just can't know. That's not true at all.

Homosexuality is thus universally condemned because of the act itself, regardless of whether that act was born out of lust or love. Therein lies the law's flaw... it cannot judge hearts.
You are trying to say that the law is insufficient because breaking the law might actually be a good thing. That's a form of antinomianism, a Christian heresy. It has nothing to do with Jesus, who said that "not even the smallest part of the law will be abrogated." The point about judging the heart has to do with those, like the Pharisees, who fulfilled the letter of the law but did not fulfill the spirit of the law. It did not have to do with people who outright break the letter of the law. Laws literally exist so that vice can be rooted out. Your notion that we can't enforce laws because laws concern behavior but we should judge the heart rather than focusing on any particular behavior is rather crazy. Again, Jesus is a rigorist. He is not saying, "Don't worry about adultery. Feel free to commit adultery all you like as long as you don't lust therein." He is saying, "Adultery is a terrible sin of lust, but just because you have avoided that terrible sin of lust does not mean that you have avoided the sin of lust."
 
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partinobodycular

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He is not saying, "Don't worry about adultery. Feel free to commit adultery all you like as long as you don't lust therein." He is saying, "Adultery is a terrible sin of lust, but just because you have avoided that terrible sin of lust does not mean that you have avoided the sin of lust."

But if I understand my Catholicism correctly aren't all sins born out of the 'capital vices'? As such shouldn't there be a 'capital vice' from which adultery is born? If not lust, then what?
 
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FireDragon76

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If we're just doing strawmen then I'll say that your argument that no one ever projects their personal beliefs on cultural heroes is naive.

That's not my argument. My argument is often it's the very place that God meets us. What matters is discernment, are we exhibiting the fruits of the Spirit and personal transformation? I don't care about some Integralist intepretation of natural law, frankly. That's not a mature way of discerning people's spiritual disposition.
 
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zippy2006

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"But" indicates that you disagree, and that what follows your 'but' contradicts something that I have said. So what do you disagree with in what I said, and how does anything that you have said contradict it?
 
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Hans Blaster

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You are trying to say that the law is insufficient because breaking the law might actually be a good thing. That's a form of antinomianism, a Christian heresy. It has nothing to do with Jesus, who said that "not even the smallest part of the law will be abrogated." The point about judging the heart has to do with those, like the Pharisees, who fulfilled the letter of the law but did not fulfill the spirit of the law. It did not have to do with people who outright break the letter of the law. Laws literally exist so that vice can be rooted out. Your notion that we can't enforce laws because laws concern behavior but we should judge the heart rather than focusing on any particular behavior is rather crazy. Again, Jesus is a rigorist. He is not saying, "Don't worry about adultery. Feel free to commit adultery all you like as long as you don't lust therein." He is saying, "Adultery is a terrible sin of lust, but just because you have avoided that terrible sin of lust does not mean that you have avoided the sin of lust."
Jesus (or rather the Jesus who speaks in the Gospels) is definitely a "obey the laws of Moses" guy who make following the law harder (lust is adultery, etc.). This is but one reason I am not particularly impressed by the morality of Jesus. Paul seems to have other ideas about the law.
 
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FireDragon76

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Jesus (or rather the Jesus who speaks in the Gospels) is definitely a "obey the laws of Moses" guy who make following the law harder (lust is adultery, etc.). This is but one reason I am not particularly impressed by the morality of Jesus. Paul seems to have other ideas about the law.

Jesus isn't speaking as much as you'ld think about conventional morality. He's interested in what is in the heart, not external rules. The word "hypocrite" that he uses alot, actually refers to an actor wearing a mask, pretending to be something he isn't. So maybe Jesus teachings are really about pointing to a deeper kind of authenticity, one beneath mere performativity.
 
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partinobodycular

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"But" indicates that you disagree, and that what follows your 'but' contradicts something that I have said. So what do you disagree with in what I said, and how does anything that you have said contradict it?

Then please, let me attempt to clarify. The following is the hyperbole to which I object.

He is not saying, "Don't worry about adultery. Feel free to commit adultery all you like as long as you don't lust therein."

Marriage for the most part comes with a solemn promise of fidelity between a man and his wife. In adultery, it's not the sexual act itself that's the sin, it's the breaking of the promise that's the sin.

The second thing that we need to consider is just what Christ meant by 'lust'. Did He simply mean that anytime that a man looks at a woman other than his wife, and thinks hubba-hubba... that's lust? Or was he talking about a man who actively desires a woman other than his wife, even though he doesn't have the opportunity to fulfill that desire. To my reading anyway, that's when Christ is saying that the man has already committed adultery with her in his heart. It's a vow broken, if not in body, then at least in spirit. If on the other hand the man has those thoughts, but actively suppresses them as inappropriate, then it's not a vow broken... it's not adultery, it's fidelity.

Once again, the law can't judge the heart, but God can.

Oh, and @Hans Blaster, it's not simply a matter of thinking the thoughts in one's head, it's about having the active desire to fulfill them, rather than voluntarily suppressing them. A married man can have those thoughts, but if they're subsequently followed by a faithfulness to his promise, then that's what we call fidelity.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Oh, and @Hans Blaster, it's not simply a matter of thinking the thoughts in one's head, it's about having the active desire to fulfill them, rather than voluntarily suppressing them. A married man can have those thoughts, but if they're subsequently followed by a faithfulness to his promise, then that's what we call fidelity.
I didn't refer to "adultery according to Jesus" as a thoughtcrime (this time, I have in the past), only that Jesus tightens the laws, not abrogates them.

There is a problem with this interpretation. Jesus doesn't say anything about attempting to follow through.

As for the problems with what Jesus is written to have said. Whether follow through is required or not, he makes no distinction on the marital status of the lustor or lustee. Adultery is the violation of the marital vow (whether that be in action, attempt, or thought) and does not apply to the interactions (lusts, or attempts) of unmarried persons for each other. (This one could have been avoided by using the word "fornication" instead, unless there is a semantic range of the Koine word not reflected in standard English translations and this is on the English translators.)
 
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FireDragon76

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Then please, let me attempt to clarify. The following is the hyperbole to which I object.



Marriage for the most part comes with a solemn promise of fidelity between a man and his wife. In adultery, it's not the sexual act itself that's the sin, it's the breaking of the promise that's the sin.

The second thing that we need to consider is just what Christ meant by 'lust'. Did He simply mean that anytime that a man looks at a woman other than his wife, and thinks hubba-hubba... that's lust? Or was he talking about a man who actively desires a woman other than his wife, even though he doesn't have the opportunity to fulfill that desire. To my reading anyway, that's when Christ is saying that the man has already committed adultery with her in his heart. It's a vow broken, if not in body, then at least in spirit. If on the other hand the man has those thoughts, but actively suppresses them as inappropriate, then it's not a vow broken... it's not adultery, it's fidelity.

Once again, the law can't judge the heart, but God can.

Oh, and @Hans Blaster, it's not simply a matter of thinking the thoughts in one's head, it's about having the active desire to fulfill them, rather than voluntarily suppressing them. A married man can have those thoughts, but if they're subsequently followed by a faithfulness to his promise, then that's what we call fidelity.

That's a good point. Many people looked down on prostitutes and tax collectors because of the jobs they had, as "sinful", but they never stopped to consider the social relationships, the opportunities, or lack thereof, when they judged those people as especially sinful.

The same thing happens today among many religious people. The insider-outsider dynamic of much of religious thought often comes down to superficial things that have to do not with motivation or intention, but situational factors not fully within the individual's control.

Here's an essay on the story of Zacchaeus, that reveals something about Jesus's real ethics. In this case, unmasking dynamics of shame and exclusion underneath much of religious piety:

The Man in the Tree


There is a moment in Luke's Gospel that rewards close attention. Jesus is passing through Jericho, surrounded by crowds, and a wealthy tax collector named Zacchaeus wants to see him. He is short, can't see over the people, and so he does something that must have looked absurd for a man of his station - he runs ahead and climbs a sycamore tree. When Jesus reaches the spot, he looks up and says, simply, "Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today."


No prior repentance is required. No confession, no promise of amendment. The encounter precedes everything.


What's striking is the contrast between Zacchaeus and the crowd surrounding Jesus. The crowd is there too, pressing close, and they are appalled when Jesus invites himself to dinner with this known collaborator and extortionist. They represent respectable religious society - people who have maintained their standing, kept the right boundaries, avoided contamination by association with the wrong people. They present themselves. Zacchaeus, by contrast, has nothing left to present. His reputation is already destroyed. So he does the only thing available to him: he gets up in a tree and looks, without pretense, without a plan, without any claim on Jesus's attention whatsoever.


That unguarded quality may be precisely what Jesus sees. The respectable crowd is armored in its own virtue. Zacchaeus is all opening.


The theological sequence Luke records matters enormously. Jesus doesn't say "get your life together and come find me." He says "I'm coming to your house today," and Zacchaeus's transformation - the spontaneous, extravagant promise to give half his goods to the poor and repay fourfold anyone he has cheated - flows from the encounter itself. Grace moves first. The human response follows, and follows generously, because something real has happened.


This pattern runs through Luke consistently enough to look like a deliberate theological argument. Jesus is repeatedly most alive in encounters with people who are structurally excluded - by profession, ethnicity, gender, disease, moral history. The crowd's muttering, "he has gone to be the guest of a sinner," appears like a refrain, and that muttering is itself the spiritual diagnosis. Their discomfort is the symptom of exactly the condition Jesus keeps trying to address: the way religious boundary maintenance becomes the primary spiritual activity, replacing encounter with gatekeeping.


The Desert Fathers understood something related when they made compunction - the acute awareness of one's own poverty and need - the precondition for genuine prayer rather than an obstacle to it. The publican in Jesus's own parable can only say "God be merciful to me a sinner" and goes home justified, while the Pharisee's prayer is essentially a résumé. The Pharisee has closed the very gap that grace moves through. Zacchaeus, ridiculous in his tree, has inadvertently kept that gap wide open.


What Jesus seems drawn to, again and again, is not moral achievement but this quality of undefended availability. The people most armored in performed respectability are paradoxically the hardest to reach - not because God is uninterested, but because there is no opening. The encounter requires some nakedness of need, some admission, even wordless, that something is missing. Zacchaeus perched in his sycamore tree, a rich man made briefly absurd by simple curiosity, is that admission made visible.

The crowd wanted a teacher who would confirm their boundaries. What they got was someone who kept finding the most interesting person in the room was always the one who didn't belong there.
 
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partinobodycular

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There is a problem with this interpretation. Jesus doesn't say anything about attempting to follow through.

As for the problems with what Jesus is written to have said. Whether follow through is required or not, he makes no distinction on the marital status of the lustor or lustee. Adultery is the violation of the marital vow (whether that be in action, attempt, or thought) and does not apply to the interactions (lusts, or attempts) of unmarried persons for each other.

As per usual I seem to have made a muddled mess of that explanation, and I fear that any attempt to clarify it will only make it worse. But then again I don't really think that it's all that important... probably best left to apologists to quibble over. They seem to quite love doing such things.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Jesus (or rather the Jesus who speaks in the Gospels) is definitely a "obey the laws of Moses" guy who make following the law harder (lust is adultery, etc.). This is but one reason I am not particularly impressed by the morality of Jesus. Paul seems to have other ideas about the law.

I for one don't really see a huge difference between how Matthew, Paul, and James juxtapose their various tensions with 'the Law of Moses' and the Grace through faith that comes through and in the New Covenant.

Obviously, there is a slight variance in "how" they each express and present that the Law has been fulfilled and/or is being fulfilled, but in the wash, I think Matthew, Paul and James come down on similar pages where faith and the Law of Moses are concerned.

Only those who have a very hard time with applying solid Hermeneutical study to the New Testament literature and tend to read only isolated texts see 'contradictions' between Jesus (Matthew, really) and Paul, through and through.

Probably, it's best if people don't speculate over alleged contradictions between Matthew and Paul (and James) which don't clearly exist.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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As per usual I seem to have made a muddled mess of that explanation, and I fear that any attempt to clarify it will only make it worse. But then again I don't really think that it's all that important... probably best left to apologists to quibble over. They seem to quite love doing such things.

No, actually, although I might quibble over small nuances, I thought you did a reasonable job of explicating.
 
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