What is the meaning of Total Depravity?

fhansen · Thursday at 12:14 PM

Clare73 said:
Just as they won't be saved without faith. . .(Eph 2:8-9).

Yes, and we can't be holy without faith because faith means nearness to God.

This is to be grafted into the Vine, apart from whom we can do nothing, John. 15:5. And this union, which itself is the essence of man's righteous, is a personal union, not just a declared or legal status.

Clare73 · Thursday at 12:23 PM

fhansen said:
Yes, and we can't be holy without faith because faith means nearness to God.

We can't be anything salvific without faith. . .remission of sin, forgiveness, justification, imputed righteousness of Christ, sanctification, glorification. . .

fhansen · Thursday at 12:36 PM

Clare73 said:
We can't be anything salvific without faith. . .remission of sin, forgiveness, justification, imputed righteousness of Christ, sanctification, glorification. . .

Agreed, and the point is that the mere act of believing does not save one but the fact of what faith means, what it results in, is what saves us. And the basis is nearness to God, connection to the Vine who is life itself. Abd we can walk away from that relationship and the grace it affords as easily as we once entered it

Clare73 · Thursday at 12:49 PM

fhansen said:
Agreed, and the point is that the mere act of believing does not save one but the fact of what faith means, what it results in, is what saves us.

Saving faith means belief in and trust on the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25) for the remission of one's sin.

Faith results in remission of sin, forgiveness, justification, imputed righteousness of Christ, sanctification (through obedience in the Holy Spirit, Ro 6:16, 19), glorification. . .

fhansen · Saturday at 12:31 PM

Clare73 said:
Saving faith means belief in and trust on the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25) for the remission of one's sin.

Faith results in remission of sin, forgiveness, justification, imputed righteousness of Christ, sanctification (through obedience in the Holy Spirit, Ro 6:16, 19), glorification. . .

It's broader than that. Faith means reconcilation with God, It's to say yes to Him, to appropriate the reconciliation accomplished by His Son and to live in that reconciled state, now bound to the Vine, a state of justice or righteousness in and of itself. And, again, that's why Abraham's faith pleased God so much. To know and believe in Jesus is to know and believe in God. And that's the whole reason Jesus came, to save man from the destructive and unjust alienation from God that Adam accomplished.

"Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him, and so your faith and hope are in God." 1 Pet 1:21

To be saved isn't just to believe in some proposed facts; it's to enter and remain in union with God.

Clare73 · Saturday at 1:05 PM

fhansen said:
It's broader than that. Faith means reconcilation with God, It's to say yes to Him, to appropriate the reconciliation accomplished by His Son and to live in that reconciled state, now bound to the Vine, a state of justice or righteousness in and of itself. And, again, that's why Abraham's faith pleased God so much. To know and believe in Jesus is to know and believe in God. And that's the whole reason Jesus came, to save man from the destructive and unjust alienation from God that Adam accomplished.

"Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him, and so your faith and hope are in God." 1 Pet 1:21

To be saved isn't just to believe in some proposed facts; it's to enter and remain in union with God.

Which is what sanctification and glorification are.

fhansen · Saturday at 1:47 PM

Clare73 said:
Which is what sanctification and glorification are.

And justification: union with God is the whole enchilda- from beginning to end.

Clare73 · Saturday at 2:07 PM

fhansen said:
And justification: union with God is the whole enchilda- from beginning to end.

To which we must add imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 1:17, Php 3:9), just as Adam's sin was imputed to us (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

fhansen · Saturday at 2:16 PM

Clare73 said:
To which we must add imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 1:17, Php 3:9), just as Adam's sin was imputed to us

That's fine, as long as we don't simultaneously dismiss the personal righteousnss given to us then (Ro 1:17, Php 3:9), and that Adam took away from us (Ro 5:17, 18-19). .

Clare73 · Saturday at 2:30 PM

fhansen said:
That's fine, as long as we don't simultaneously dismiss the personal righteousnss given to us then (Ro 1:17, Php 3:9), and
that Adam took away from us (Ro 5:17, 18-19). .

We never got to have any righteousness when we were born.

All those of Adam are born with the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:14, 17, 18-19), which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteousness of Christ to those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19, Php 3:9).

The credited (imputed) righteousness of Ro 1:7, Php 3:9 is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, not our own righteousness.

fhansen · Saturday at 2:41 PM

Clare73 said:
We never got to have any righteousness when we were born.

We do when we're born again, made new creations, etc.

Clare73 · Saturday at 2:55 PM

fhansen said:
We do when we're born again, made new creations, etc.

Adam did not take away Ro 1:17, Php 3:9 (post #89).

fhansen · Saturday at 3:18 PM

Clare73 said:
Adam did not take it away Ro 1:17, Php 3:9.

Of course he did, and that's basic to Christianity. There's a reason why all people sin now and it's because we lost the original righteousness or holiness that is intrinsic to union with God. That's why sin flourished right after the Fall. Cain slew Abel, etc, which would have been totally foreign, impossible, unheard of, beforehand. And faith is the reestablishment of that union.

Clare73 · Saturday at 4:31 PM

fhansen said:
Of course he did, and that's basic to Christianity. There's a reason why all people sin now and it's because we lost the original righteousness or holiness that is intrinsic to union with God.

See post #90, address the Scriptures there.

fhansen · Saturday at 5:39 PM

Clare73 said:
See post #90, address the Scriptures there.

I already have, many times. There's nothing about imputed, at least as in personal righteousness not given; there's just righteousness-and unrighteousness- with concepts such as righteousness reckoned or charged, righteousness given, many made righteous...

To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Rom 5:13-14, 17-19

Same with Phil 3:9, nothing about an imputed righteousness at all:
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."

This is all about the gift of righteousness, as we become united with Him:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33-34

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22"

"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

“The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:20-21

"You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:18-22

"For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:12-14

“The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Gal 2:20-21

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5:21

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:5-6

Clare73 · 2025-11-09T11:00:56-0600

fhansen said:
f already have, many times.

Prove it. . .assertion without demonstration is without merit.

fhansen said:
There's nothing about imputed, at least as in personal righteousness not given; there's just righteousness-and unrighteousness- with concepts such as righteousness reckoned or charged, righteousness given, many made righteous...

To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. (Ro 4:23). Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Precisely. . .

The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23).
Where there is no law, there is no sin (Ro 4:23) and, therefore no curse of death.
There was no law between Adam and Moses, and yet they all died anyway (Ro 5:14).
Of what sin did they die when no sin was charged against them.

Your answer?
(Feel free to exegete Ro 5:12-19 in agreement with the text, context and the rest of the NT).

Biblical answer:
They died of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19), which imputed sin of Adam was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteosness of Christ.

In Ro 5:12-19, Paul is demonstrating the imputed sin of Adam to all mankind, where between Adam and Moses there was no sin because there was no law and no death for its violation, yet they all died anyway. . .because of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

fhansen said:
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man,

Death reigned through Adam. . .through the accounting/charging of his sin to all those of Adam (Ro 5:14, 17, 18-19), which was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the accounting/charging of Christ's righteousness to all those of Christ.

fhansen said:
how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Rom 5:13-14, 17-19

Same with Phil 3:9, nothing about an imputed righteousness at all:
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."

The righteousness that comes from God (Ro 1:17, 3:21, 4:5) through faith in Christ is the imputed righteousness of Christ (Php 3:9), just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham through faith in the promise (Ge 5:5-6, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

fhansen said:
This is all about the gift of righteousness, as we become united with Him:

We are united with God through faith in Christ, wherein the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us (Php 3:9),
just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham through faith in the promise (Ge 15:5-6, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

fhansen · 2025-11-09T15:07:45-0600

Clare73 said:
Prove it.

I have, many times i nthe past, with the same exchanges between us. But I did again, anyway, in the remainder of that same post.

Clare73 said:
Of what sin did they die when no sin was charged against them.

They were already dead, born that way due to their alienation from God. That's the state known as "original sin". Now, if this is what is meant by imputation, that a real change, towards injustice/unrighteousness, took place, not just a change in status, IOW, then we can understand why sin could already be in the world even if not charged against those who sinned but hadn't heard the law. We're born sinful, not just viewed as sinful. And this is why the antidote for this is reconciliation with Him, is "re-communion". engraftation into the Vine because there and only there can man be just...justified.

Clare73 said:
he righteousness that comes from God (Ro 1:17, 3:21, 4:5) through faith in Christ is the imputed righteousness of Christ (Php 3:9), just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham through faith in the promise (Ge 5:5-6, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

The righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith is real, personal righteousness given, as demonstrated by an objective reading of the passages I included. This is simple: unrighteousness (sin) entered the world at the Fall. Jesus takes it away, both forgiving sin and replacing it with authentic righteousness as we now become new creations in Him.

Clare73 said:
We are united with God through faith in Christ, wherein the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us (Php 3:9),
just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham through faith in the promise (Ge 15:5-6, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

No, God doesn't separate righteousness from righteousness, as if pretending that we're righteous while leaving us in our sins would be something good. He forgives our sins, our unrighteousness, while telling us, and empowering us by virtue of grace, His life in us, to "go, and sin no more". The many will be made righteous, Rom 5:19. Thats why there's no condemnation in Christ, Rom 8:1.

What is the meaning of Total Depravity?

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