Spiritual Israel + End times

Delvianna · 2025-11-07T15:04:10-0600

I've been going back and forth on this topic for a few years now and I'm not sure how to rectify some stuff when it comes to end-time prophecy. I'd love to hear some arguments for and against or even going in a weird direction...

1. 144,000

12 tribes are listed and the ones that had idolatry issues are excluded. This gives the idea that the 12 tribes listed are the purified ones essentially, so as a "whole" status.
They are called first fruits (Which using the farming term, they would be the first saved/protected during the trib before the rest of the harvest comes in)

Now, it makes sense to me that the church as a group would be considered apart of the 144,000 due to:

Us being grafted in
Ethnicity was done away with (there is neither jew nor gentile)
The only ones who are saved are saved through Christ
If only ethnic Jews are considered part of the 144,000, then you're essentially saying no gentile could be a "first fruit"
If this is only ethnic Jews, then you're saying God is going back to favor ethnicity over spiritual wholeness and Pauls analogies no longer apply
If this is only ethnic Jews then the idea that there is a 2 class system emerges where God favors ethnic Jews over gentiles.

2. So the fact that 144,000 incorporates everyone within God's tree makes sense apart from 1 problem...

What tribe are the gentiles apart of?

So how do you rectify the two, or cant you?

Side note:
I don't subscribe to the idea that the "church" just doesn't exist in the trib because that's essentially saying you're tossing out the entire new testament. People are going to be saved during this time period, they just might not live through it. So if the "church" represents the new covenant of people turning to Christ, then it will always be around.

Gregory Thompson · 2025-11-07T16:24:00-0600

Delvianna said:
What tribe are the gentiles apart of?

There's a mirror I've observed between the old testament and church history.

Jesus mirrors Moses
The 12 apostles mirror the 12 patriarchs of Israel
The Orthodox era mirrors the era of the Judges
The Popes seem to be like the kings of the old testament.
The reformation seems to be the division of the kingdom. Catholics-Judah, Orthodox-Benjamin, Post reformation groups-The other 10 tribes.

timothyu · 2025-11-07T16:34:22-0600

Delvianna said:
What tribe are the gentiles apart of?

The dispersed 10 who were not Jew nor Levite but of the House of Israel were called gentiles. Derogatory term on the part of the Jews, sibling rivalry. ALL the House of Israel must return before the end of the age.

Delvianna · 2025-11-07T16:48:07-0600

timothyu said:
The dispersed 10 who were not Jew nor Levite but of the House of Israel were called gentiles.

What do you mean by this?

Are you essentially saying that someone would be from a particular tribe, you just don't know who but God does? Like, let's say someone by the name of Sara who is a gentile by birth, becomes saved. She wouldn't know which tribe she's apart of, but God does? He just places her somewhere?

timothyu · 2025-11-07T16:50:27-0600

Delvianna said:
What do you mean by this?

10 of the tribes were dispersed. Who knows but God after thousands of years who is a descendant of those tribes. But they come first. This was who Jesus came for. The rest who catch on to the Kingdom but are under the nations of the elohim and not of the 12 are also free to graft in.

Delvianna · 2025-11-07T16:51:50-0600

Gregory Thompson said:
There's a mirror I've observed between the old testament and church history.

Jesus mirrors Moses
The 12 apostles mirror the 12 patriarchs of Israel
The Orthodox era mirrors the era of the Judges
The Popes seem to be like the kings of the old testament.
The reformation seems to be the division of the kingdom. Catholics-Judah, Orthodox-Benjamin, Post reformation groups-The other 10 tribes.

Okay, lets just say for sake of argument that's all true, but I don't understand how that links to being in a tribe. Maybe I'm missing your point but essentially my question is how would a gentile fit into a list of tribes? There's a distinct number in each tribe list (12,000) so how does that fit with the idea of spiritual israel? Like, Sara is signed and sealed as part of the 144,000 as a gentile, so what tribe list is she placed in? She would have to take up a slot.

Delvianna · 2025-11-07T16:58:53-0600

timothyu said:
10 of the tribes were dispersed. Who knows but God after thousands of years who is a descendant of those tribes. But they come first. This was who Jesus came for. The rest who catch on to the Kingdom but are under the nations of the elohim and not of the 12 are also free to graft in.

So you're arguing for a 2 group system then? Gentile + Ethnic Jews?

timothyu · 2025-11-07T17:08:51-0600

Delvianna said:
So you're arguing for a 2 group system then? Gentile + Ethnic Jews?

How so? Besides, it was the House of Judah that turned the House of Israel into two groups by breaking away. The point is they are ALL Israel, no distinction.

Delvianna · 2025-11-07T17:10:29-0600

timothyu said:
How so? Besides, it was the House of Judah that turned the House of Israel into two groups by breaking away. The point is they are ALL Israel, no distinction.

But the 12 tribes listed in Revelation are literally spelled out. So this still isn't answering my question.

Gregory Thompson · 2025-11-07T17:41:55-0600

Delvianna said:
Okay, lets just say for sake of argument that's all true, but I don't understand how that links to being in a tribe. Maybe I'm missing your point but essentially my question is how would a gentile fit into a list of tribes? There's a distinct number in each tribe list (12,000) so how does that fit with the idea of spiritual israel? Like, Sara is signed and sealed as part of the 144,000 as a gentile, so what tribe list is she placed in? She would have to take up a slot.

The 144,000 are unmarried men, virgins. So they don't represent anything other than the tribe they fit in.

In the parallel, each apostle has a Gate in the city of God in revelation .. but determining which "tribe mirror" one belongs to is more for God to do.

If the 144,000 is a group of "christian" witnesses, then the mirror will be the manifestation.

There is no gentile tribe of the original Israel. There is a gentile mirror to the entire genealogy, but it is based on the blood of Jesus and being spiritually born again.

Delvianna · 2025-11-07T18:26:33-0600

Gregory Thompson said:
The 144,000 are unmarried men, virgins. So they don't represent anything other than the tribe they fit in.

That in itself has more implications.
1) Women are excluded from being first fruits
2) It excludes married men
3) It insinuates sex with women (even in marriage) is defilement and we know that's not the case because God created sex and literally gave the command TO multiply.
This could be taken symbolically since religion is sometimes depicted as a woman. So essentially, defiled with false religion.

Gregory Thompson said:
If the 144,000 is a group of "christian" witnesses, then the mirror will be the manifestation.

What do you mean manifestation?

Gregory Thompson · 2025-11-07T22:11:34-0600

Delvianna said:
That in itself has more implications.
1) Women are excluded from being first fruits
2) It excludes married men
3) It insinuates sex with women (even in marriage) is defilement and we know that's not the case because God created sex and literally gave the command TO multiply.
This could be taken symbolically since religion is sometimes depicted as a woman. So essentially, defiled with false religion.

It's one of those verses that only make sense to those it is written for.

Re-reading the verse in an inclusionary light would invoke one of the curses at the end of the book, so I wouldn't recommend it.

Delvianna said:
What do you mean manifestation?

The new testament fulfills what the old testament proclaimed. Manifestation meaning the new testament fulfillment of the old concept.

The old testament was a shadow of the things to come, the body casting said shadow is the manifestation. Much like how the elements of the temple all pointed to Christ.

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Spiritual Israel + End times

Delvianna

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Gregory Thompson

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timothyu

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Gregory Thompson

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